[Mage] Raidbots up with ToT Numbers

[Xeraxis]

What would be the point of top 100 parses ?

I don't know seems to me you're only gonna see :

People who "cheated" dps meters (multi dot when not needed)
Overgeared people
Huge streak of RNG
etc..

Why not look at all parses ?

You're right because looking at all the parses doesn't include all the mouth-breathers who die on the pull skewing the results in the other direction. Neither is optimal.

---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 12:53 AM ----------

Sorry I am being a bit negative here. But after being benched after the first boss last night I'm not impressed. I managed 106k dps 10man as frost, 40k dps below everyone else, ilvl 485. As it is I struggle for drops as you can see from my ilvl I dont really need to be benched on top of my already bad luck.

Welcome to what every other class has had to do at one point before. Hell at least you got to fight the first boss most classes are benched before getting to step foot in the newest instance.

[schwarzkopf]

Welcome to what every other class has had to do at one point before. Hell at least you got to fight the first boss most classes are benched before getting to step foot in the newest instance.

Many SPECs have been in that situation - however not a full 3 specs in one class before ?

---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 01:02 AM ----------

You're right because looking at all the parses doesn't include all the mouth-breathers who die on the pull skewing the results in the other direction. Neither is optimal.

That is why you look at the median, not the average. Averages are skewed too easily by good RNG, or as you call them mouth breathers.

[Methusula]

You're right because looking at all the parses doesn't include all the mouth-breathers who die on the pull skewing the results in the other direction. Neither is optimal.

---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 12:53 AM ----------



Welcome to what every other class has had to do at one point before. Hell at least you got to fight the first boss most classes are benched before getting to step foot in the newest instance.

actually. since balance is intended for all ranges of ability, this is the optimal comparison. There is also less of a statistical bias this way.

[willemh]

Many SPECs have been in that situation - however not a full 3 specs in one class before ?

I remember sunwell, multiple locks and 'improved shadowbolt' making the mages get banned in favor of warlocks. Same seems to be the case for warlocks now, they are vastly superior not only dps wise, but also utility wise. I noticed that when we didn't have a warlock in our 25man raid for the first time since months today. We were really missing those healthstones on Tortos, and had to run for 3 minutes from Tortos to the start of the instance to summon a person for a replacement. Oh and then I havnt even talked about gateways yet.

[lhehitman]

im a mage and i dont care. We have ups and we have downs, every class cant be best, there has to be a worst class every patch. We are the class the raid deserves, but the the one it needs right now, so they will laugh at us, because we can take it. Because we are not their hero. We are a silent bottom scrub, a watchful lootwhore... a dark knight.

plus 10 internets to you sir, they will come back for us in 5.3, they always come back. So keep an eye on the horizon

[Frostyspeed]

I dont see why people are not going frost? Im topping meters in my guild as frost, i did 180k on the first boss. (we're 6/12 atm). I dont see much problems with frost, it has insanely good cleave/aoe. The only poor thing about it is the lack of dps while moving i guess? but if you know when youre gonna move, you can time your procs and its great. Fire seems to be in a 'good' - ish position but thats only cuz of good RNG

[spaace]

The Pyroblast nerf hurt bad...really bad.

We're only doing well on cleave fights.

Even that, we lost most of our cleave powers.
Living bomb feels so worthless.

I remember sunwell, multiple locks and 'improved shadowbolt' making the mages get banned in favor of warlocks. Same seems to be the case for warlocks now, they are vastly superior not only dps wise, but also utility wise. I noticed that when we didn't have a warlock in our 25man raid for the first time since months today. We were really missing those healthstones on Tortos, and had to run for 3 minutes from Tortos to the start of the instance to summon a person for a replacement. Oh and then I havnt even talked about gateways yet.

Improved shadowbolt didn't happen until 3.0

Mages were KING of aoe and single target fights for the longest time.

[mrgreenthump]

You're right because looking at all the parses doesn't include all the mouth-breathers who die on the pull skewing the results in the other direction.

Then again its not only mages that have this problem.. So they wont skew to the opposite direction, they just make the bottom portion unreliable..

[lostdrewid]

Using the past to justify the present is the least productive attitude the human race ever puts forth in attempting to progress forward.

Citing Arcane in 5.1 has no bearing on the state of the class in 5.2.

Try telling that to the people who were on the bottom time and time again. No, you don't get off that easy. I don't care if you're low, you've had your time to shine. You'll get your time to shine again. Stop complaining when others have a moment in the sun for once.

[Deleted]

im a mage and i dont care. We have ups and we have downs, every class cant be best, there has to be a worst class every patch. We are the class the raid deserves, but the the one it needs right now, so they will laugh at us, because we can take it. Because we are not their hero. We are a silent bottom scrub, a watchful lootwhore... a dark knight.

Haha epic
Thou so true Being replaced on all bosses for "too low dps"... how does blizzard expect mages to get gear if we don't get raidspots??

[Methusula]

Try telling that to the people who were on the bottom time and time again. No, you don't get off that easy. I don't care if you're low, you've had your time to shine. You'll get your time to shine again. Stop complaining when others have a moment in the sun for once.

I just don't understand this line of thinking. It comes across as petty and shallow to me. Most of us are not demanding to top the meters on every fight. Even if that was the result, it wouldn't be our fault but that of the devs. We generally just want to feel like we are not holding the raid back. We want fell like we have a justified spot in the raid. That's not asking much. Being more than 30% behind the top DPS spec as a pure DPS class is unacceptable. I'm sorry but all your bitterness isn't going to justify your position here.

[purebalance]

My GM for the first time start putting me on banch. Id we need somoone in raid. Frist what goes out are now mages. Thank you blizzard very much.

Unless you're a tip of the spear guild, if your GM is sitting you it isn't because of mages.

[willemh]

Improved shadowbolt didn't happen until 3.0

Mages were KING of aoe and single target fights for the longest time.

I know this is going a bit off-topic but just to defend myself.

Improved shadowbolt certainly existed in TBC. Every shadowbolt crit increased the damage from the next 4 direct shadow spells by 20%. Stacking up 3-4 warlocks to maintain a very high uptime of this buff together with a shadowpriest for shadoweaving was extremely strong and beated any mage. Warlock dps on bosses like brutallus/kil'jaeden etc was far above mage dps (if my memory serves right top mage dps was around 2.2k for brutallus where top warlock dps was around 2.8k pre-patch 3.0. Feel free to check the comps of the world first sunwell kills and I am quite sure you wont find many mages and far more warlocks. Warlocks AOE was also far stronger AOE then any mage AOE back then.

So no, mages certainly weren't always KING of aoe and single target fights.

[S31Ender]

Sorry I am being a bit negative here. But after being benched after the first boss last night I'm not impressed. I managed 106k dps 10man as frost, 40k dps below everyone else, ilvl 485. As it is I struggle for drops as you can see from my ilvl I dont really need to be benched on top of my already bad luck.

Holy crap.
10man 485ilvl frost at 106k? What bosses were those done on?
On The first two HoF bosses I'm only at like 69-75k overall.

[Methusula]

Holy crap.
10man 485ilvl frost at 106k? What bosses were those done on?
On The first two HoF bosses I'm only at like 69-75k overall.

First boss has a damage increasing mechanic.

[schwarzkopf]

First boss has a damage increasing mechanic.

Stand in the fire.
Don't stand in the fire.
Stand in the fire.

Arrghhh

[Aquamonkey]

That is why you look at the median, not the average. Averages are skewed too easily by good RNG, or as you call them mouth breathers.

Mean is fine, you just need to look at the standard deviation which is also lowest for mages. Which makes mean dps for mages is fine. This is also supported by the near identical means and medians. There are no serious outliers skewing the data.

[S31Ender]

First boss has a damage increasing mechanic.

First boss in ToT you mean?

Kinda off topic, but a 485ish geared out mage on a average fight (without dps enhancing mechanics) should be pulling vaguely...? Just curious. (I was fire/arc, this is my first time as frost)


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On Topic.

I should weigh in that in my opinion there are two points to consider.
Simcraft and such are really nice tools, but they are only that, tools. They do use flawed data. Our best guess from information we've been able to pull. Blizzard's own internal information, input into Simcraft or the like would be much more accurate, but we don't have that.
Most importantly, all the sims in the world mean nothing if people aren't able to recreate the sim themselves. That's why I'm a fan of Raidbots. It's not perfect, but it shows what real people are doing. Both top players and the average joe. You can also remove some of the RNG factors using median filters.

To those people who say "well, you mages were best for so long, now you can suck it."
Mind you, even as top dps, I felt bad for ele shammies and marksman hunters.
It doesn't invalidate the arguement that there is still an issue just because we were on the flip side. See below.

And most importantly, being top dps and bottom dps wouldn't matter so much if they were all within 5 percent or less of each other.
If we saw Top DPS 150k-----Everyone else-----Bottom DPS 143k Then I would just say no worries.
The problem lies when you have a 25-30k+ difference in the numbers. When the top class is doing 20-30 percent more dps than the bottom class, that's why we all flip out.

Just because we were on the other end, doesn't change that there is still a huge difference in numbers.

[spaace]

snip

unlimited target living bomb > seed of corruption

improved shadow bolt = scorch


2.8k warlocks? ya... rogues with dual glaves weren't even that high

[Bullarkie]

I just don't understand this line of thinking. It comes across as petty and shallow to me. Most of us are not demanding to top the meters on every fight. Even if that was the result, it wouldn't be our fault but that of the devs. We generally just want to feel like we are not holding the raid back. We want fell like we have a justified spot in the raid. That's not asking much. Being more than 30% behind the top DPS spec as a pure DPS class is unacceptable. I'm sorry but all your bitterness isn't going to justify your position here.

Location:North Jersey

I'm going with a lack of education and too much reality TV.

Infracted for flaming. Mages don't sleep.