How does "Socialized Healthcare" Compare to "Privatized Healthcare"?

[Elegiac]

They're private practices but paid by government insurance funds.

Exactly; and as I said, this results in a net lower cost for the consumer without and reduction of quality.

[Tradewind]

Exactly; and as I said, this results in a net lower cost for the consumer without and reduction of quality.

Yeah just so people don't get confused :P

"erhmahgerd private everywhere!"

[Deleted]

I actually have a good perspective on this socialized vs. privatized since over the last 2 years during my disability I've used both extensively, and ofc prior experience before that. We have a cost cap of 120e on gov. side, with one basic doctors visit costing 40e for example. Even if you haven't paid, you won't be denied treatment according to the law. Private visit costs about twice the gov. side, but you get shorter queues and undeniably the best care is in private side. For example my leg was malpractioned at first on socialized side, and by an error a med student should comprehend.
All and all I still heavily support (relatively) free national healthcare, I just don't agree how it's executed structurally at the moment.

[Elegiac]

Yeah just so people don't get confused :P

"erhmahgerd private everywhere!"

:P

One thing the US definitely needs is the expansion of the teaching hospital concept; I hear it's highly successful in the UK for lowering costs.

[Redblade]

Don't know about the rest, maybe some other Swede could fill in the blanks.

The wiki explains it fairly well.

Prescription medicine costs per year are not free but are limited for the patient. When 1,800 SEK (249 USD) have been paid to the pharmacy, the medicines are paid by the government for the rest of the year.

A limit on health-care fees per year exists; 150-300 SEK for each visit to a doctor, regardless if they are a private doctor or work at a local health-care center or a hospital. When visiting a hospital, the entrance fee covers all specialist visits the doctor deems unnecessary, like x-ray, rheumatism specialist, heart surgery operations and so on. The same fee is levied for ambulance services. After 1100 SEK have been paid, health-care for the rest of the year will be provided free of charge.

Dental care is not included in the general health care system, but is partly subsidized by the government. Dental care is free for youths up to 18 years of age.

So basically our costs cap out at around 450 dollar per year if you exclude dental care, and for that (and so much more) we pay about 8% more income tax (33%) than your average American (25%).

[Proakryt]

What everyone who argues for a "market solution" fails to realize is that healthcare is NOT a market based commodity. You cannot shop around for the best deal when dealing with an emergency situation like a car crash. A hospital saves your life and then presents a bill for $100,000. You didn't choose to purchase those services; they were required to save your life in a situation out of your control. Its not like a new computer where you have the choice of when to buy it. Also high healthcare costs forces people to wait until a condition is very serious before seeking help because of fear or payment. It is incredibly inefficient.

Plus there is no marginal utility to consider. If a treatment has a chance to save your life you are going to use it more or less regardless of cost. You are not going to consume 3/4th of a chemo regimen and stop because you feel the last quarter is not worth the money/is too expensive.

It's also not based on classic supply and demand principles. If you have diabetes you have to get it controlled or the alternative is death. Its not like a car where you can put off the purchase due to financial burdens. An illness should not be a profit generating mechanism.

Please stop saying that the market will fix anything, healthcare is not a widget you can use market based principles to describe.

[Tradewind]

What everyone who argues for a "market solution" fails to realize is that healthcare is NOT a market based commodity. You cannot shop around for the best deal when dealing with an emergency situation like a car crash. We saved your life and here is a bill for $100,000. Its not like a new computer where you have the choice of when to buy it. Also high healthcare costs forces people to wait until a condition is very serious before seeking help because of fear or payment. It is incredibly inefficient.

Plus there is no marginal utility to consider. If a treatment has a chance to save your life you are going to use it more or less regardless of cost. You are not going to consume 3/4th of a chemo regimen and stop because you feel the last quarter is not worth the money/is too expensive.

It's also not based on classic supply and demand principles. If you have diabetes you have to get it controlled or the alternative is death. Its not like a car where you can put off the purchase due to financial burdens. An illness should not be a profit generating mechanism.

Please stop saying that the market will fix anything, healthcare is not a widget you can use market based principles to describe.

You are my new favorite sub-50 post person.

[Wildtree]

There's another cost factor in the USA very different to Europe...
TV ads... Doctors and Hospitals advertising on TV doesn't exactly lower the costs on medical expenses.
And on the same token the direct advertisement on TV for prescription drugs is also totally out of line.

There are billions of dollars blown out of the window, which of course are paid for by the patients that need the doctors, hospitals and drugs.
Here's an article:
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/.../en/index.html
$260 mio for one drug alone.... And there's a heap of drugs advertised every damn day.

[Deleted]

Better outcomes? Does this mean better coverage or quality? There's a distinction. US quality is top notch and highly specialized.

You do realize that EU quality is top notch and highly specialized and is affordable for everyone?

[Elegiac]

Better outcomes? Does this mean better coverage or quality? There's a distinction. US quality is top notch and highly specialized.

The US is an excellent example of how outliers can skew the average.

[Deleted]

Sure, but don't act like most people can't.

Sure, But I don't want to have to sell my house to pay for cancer treatment.

[Tradewind]

There's another cost factor in the USA very different to Europe...
TV ads... Doctors and Hospitals advertising on TV doesn't exactly lower the costs on medical expenses.
And on the same token the direct advertisement on TV for prescription drugs is also totally out of line.

There are billions of dollars blown out of the window, which of course are paid for by the patients that need the doctors, hospitals and drugs.
Here's an article:
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/.../en/index.html
$260 mio for one drug alone.... And there's a heap of drugs advertised every damn day.

I was actually thinking to myself when watching a hockey game on the weekend, was played in the states. Locally our arena's advertisers are things like Molson, Phone Companies, shit like that. At the US arena it was Hospitals and Insurance providers, plastered across the back of the benches were ads for a local hospital with their slogan...

[Deleted]

I kinda like how it has been proven millions of times that the US system for healthcare is the worst in the modern day world (even some 2nd world countries like Cuba have a better system), yet some people keep defending their right to go bankrupt to the death. I think its because the word social...

(and political lobbying by the insurance company's, who make millions out of sick and dying people)

[Deleted]

Nobody in the UK has to cook meth to pay for cancer treatment, worth thinking about.

[Tradewind]

I kinda like how it has been proven millions of times that the US system for healthcare is the worst in the modern day world (even some 2nd world countries like Cuba have a better system), yet some people keep defending their right to go bankrupt to the death. I think its because the word social...

More than likely, hence the title of this whole thread is "Socialized Healthcare" rather than calling it something like "Public Healthcare" or "Single Payer."

Nobody in the UK has to cook meth to pay for cancer treatment, worth thinking about.

lol

[Proakryt]

Let's also get into the fact the the US has by far too many specialists than general practioners. Highly specialized=!better. If you incentivize radiology with 500k+ starting salaries it's no wonder everyone is flocking to the high salaried specialties like anesthesiology and dermatology rather than actually treating patients in primary care. Then we can delve into how medical school costs an absurd amount of money, in both lost wages and actual cost. Oh yes we can go down the rabbit hole if you want

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/1...-doctors-gone/

[Deleted]

What everyone who argues for a "market solution" fails to realize is that healthcare is NOT a market based commodity. You cannot shop around for the best deal when dealing with an emergency situation like a car crash. A hospital saves your life and then presents a bill for $100,000. You didn't choose to purchase those services; they were required to save your life in a situation out of your control. Its not like a new computer where you have the choice of when to buy it. Also high healthcare costs forces people to wait until a condition is very serious before seeking help because of fear or payment. It is incredibly inefficient.

Plus there is no marginal utility to consider. If a treatment has a chance to save your life you are going to use it more or less regardless of cost. You are not going to consume 3/4th of a chemo regimen and stop because you feel the last quarter is not worth the money/is too expensive.

It's also not based on classic supply and demand principles. If you have diabetes you have to get it controlled or the alternative is death. Its not like a car where you can put off the purchase due to financial burdens. An illness should not be a profit generating mechanism.

Please stop saying that the market will fix anything, healthcare is not a widget you can use market based principles to describe.

I knew there was a reason I'm still subbed to this thread. Well said!

[Wildtree]

I was actually thinking to myself when watching a hockey game on the weekend, was played in the states. Locally our arena's advertisers are things like Molson, Phone Companies, shit like that. At the US arena it was Hospitals and Insurance providers, plastered across the back of the benches were ads for a local hospital with their slogan...

It is really bad....
It's morbid how human health is such a big business instead of an essential humane service in the US.

[Gheld]

What really needs to change before the US ever adopts healthcare is that the attitude of absolutism needs to be retired from its culture. But I don't see that happening any time soon, in fact I see it creeping across the border into Canada every day.

It's like "Either Health Care is 100% Private, or there will be government death camps instead of hospitals."
"Either it should rain guns and ammo, or all the guns will be taken away."

Yada yada. Every single political debate in the United States has two ridiculous extremes, and no workable middle ground

[Wildtree]

I kinda like how it has been proven millions of times that the US system for healthcare is the worst in the modern day world (even some 2nd world countries like Cuba have a better system), yet some people keep defending their right to go bankrupt to the death. I think its because the word social...

(and political lobbying by the insurance company's, who make millions out of sick and dying people)

I am sure you are damn close to the truth about the word social. The cold war brainwashing didn't just happen on the east side of the iron curtain. It happened on both sides.
There's an almost paranoid antipathy against the term social.
Something social? GTFO. Social > Socialism > Communism > Dictatorship
That pattern you detect times and again..

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 12:21 PM ----------

What really needs to change before the US ever adopts healthcare is that the attitude of absolutism needs to be retired from its culture. But I don't see that happening any time soon, in fact I see it creeping across the border into Canada every day.

It's like "Either Health Care is 100% Private, or there will be government death camps instead of hospitals."
"Either it should rain guns and ammo, or all the guns will be taken away."

Yada yada. Every single political debate in the United States has two ridiculous extremes, and no workable middle ground

The middle ground are hundreds of millions of Americans who don't step forward. They act rather frustrated and give up. They don't believe that anything could be changed anyway.