Elemental Soft Haste cap

[Deleted]

Should i stack haste untill im at the point that Lavaburst when i use Heroism/Elemental Mastery goes to 1 second Cast time? Or can i still get haste beyond that? (I use Reforge Lite, should i set haste to a set value?)

[Deleted]

There are no real breakpoints for Elemental Shamans. Here is some info from Totemspot. http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6829

Haste Caps & Breakpoints
If you read up on most other spell casters, be they damage or healing, you'll see talk of "Haste Breakpoints". These are values of haste where additional ticks are added to particular DoTs & HoTs (Damage/Heal over Time). This does not apply to Elemental as our single DoT, Flame Shock, contributes approximately 5% of our damage. There will be some variation in haste around the breakpoints, but these variations are minor and should be not geared for, whereas the break points for healers are to do with mana efficiency and DoT centric casters like Affliction Warlocks are concerned with time efficiency.

There are two haste caps, one "soft cap" at 50% where additional haste ceases to have any affect on Chain Lightning, Lava Burst and Shocks. The second is a "hard cap" at 100% where haste caps out on Lightning Bolt and Elemental Blast. Even though temporary haste buffs like Bloodlust and Elemental Mastery will push you over the 50% haste cap if you have more than 15.38% haste self buffed, it won't affect stat weights generated by SimulationCraft as it already takes this into account.

However, the more haste you gain the less effective a talent like Elemental Mastery will be, thanks to that soft cap, which is why Echo of the Elements will be more valuable as gear levels increase.

In short, the only cap you have to worry about is the hit cap.

[Deleted]

Tough many argue that having 6500-7000 haste is optimal (due to flame shock breakpoint giving more chances to procc Lava Surge), after which you can reforge into mastery.

[aggixx]

Tough many argue that having 6500-7000 haste is optimal (due to flame shock breakpoint giving more chances to procc Lava Surge), after which you can reforge into mastery.

Achieving a haste breakpoint for Flame Shock doesn't give you an increase in Lava Surge procs... at least not more than you would for gaining haste at any other point. The quote from Totemspot explains everything, if SimC says haste is more than valuable than mastery for your character then it's already accounting for any soft haste capping that may be occurring.

[Deleted]

What about when i get my haste Gem next week? Should i still go for haste>mastery=Crit?

[Gendori]

Haste Doesnt "softcap" Per se, The Number you are looking for is around 6050, After 6050 haste is No longer your best stat, but it is still roughly equal to mastery. There are certain haste breakpoints where you can realize a tiny Patchwerk DPS gain after that reforging out of mastery and into haste

I dont have the 4 pc Yet, but I do have the Meta, I just ran a full simcraft with reforge plots with a starting point of 7817 haste and I dont see any real gain of reforging haste from mastery until I get to about 9400 haste.

Also keep in Mind that Haste IS your worst stat in Cleaving and Full blown AoE situations, crit is better at cleaving (crit is better on 3 or 4 targets or less), and Mastery is better with Full blown AoE

Putting everything together, I personally wouldn't recommend more than 8k haste, stick the rest in mastery or crit. Even at 8k With the Meta Proc your CL is going to be GCD locked during meta procs and ascendance will be as well. If this bothers you too much you can go down to 6050, and it really isnt going to make a noticeable difference.

This is all Assuming youre taking EoTE (which you should with the meta) and EB talents (my personal preference)

Edit: This is my profile if youre curious

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ndori/advanced

[Deleted]

This is all Assuming youre taking EoTE (which you should with the meta) and EB talents (my personal preference)

When i get the Meta, EoTS is better then EM?

[Gendori]

Easily, With EM you Just have so much Haste to Juggle It's Just not worth it. Theres a reason the Meta has such a High Uptime, its because it doesnt scale as well with Ele as it does the other Range DPS classes. Pick a Talent that will scale with you no Matter what.....EoTE is your answer!

Its also easily the Worst talent in Cleaving and AoE situations (haste is your worst stat in those)

[Deleted]

Alright Thanks I can't wait for my Meta Gem

[binkenstein]

I would like to see someone actually substantiate this 6050 haste breakpoint, as I've never been able to find any justification for any practical breakpoints for Elemental.

Note: Flame Shock has breakpoints at 4052 & 8106 haste rating (or 3591 & 7605 for Goblins).

[Gendori]

I would like to see someone actually substantiate this 6050 haste breakpoint, as I've never been able to find any justification for any practical breakpoints for Elemental.

Note: Flame Shock has breakpoints at 4052 & 8106 haste rating (or 3591 & 7605 for Goblins).

This is a slightly older Graph (still 5.2 though) from before I got the Meta. Unfortunatley I did not save to my folder the one I made last night after I got the Meta, But I assure you I looked it over and the results were pretty darn similar. Ill run another tonight and Post it tomorrow

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8392/elechart.jpg

This Graph Shows What your patchwerk DPS will be if you reforge More haste from Mastery or Less Haste and Add Mastery. I simmed this when my Character was at 6050 Haste.

As you can see from 1050 Haste to 6050 Haste it was always a DPS gain to reforge into more Haste from Mastery, However Past 6050 Your DPS stays Flat, meaning that the 2 stats are roughly equal. In fact there is definitley a curve at the 7500-9300 haste range where it is definitley a small DPS Loss to Take More Haste eschewing Mastery

There isnt really a Breakpoint Per se, But this graph will show you that Past 6050 haste, reforging More

[Gistwiki]

Not sure. 6050 haste isn't the point where heroism will GCD cap you/put Lava Burst at 1 second (that's 4204) and it's not the point where heroism will put Lightning Bolt at 1 second (that's 21,328 with GoUL and 19,772 without it.) No idea where that number comes from.

I also never saw results through reforge plots that I did for my character in the long journey from ~6000 haste to the 12000 I'm at now showing Haste anything other than slightly ahead of mastery up till I got the meta, where it became optimal to drop ~300 haste for mastery.

[Gendori]

Not sure. 6050 haste isn't the point where heroism will GCD cap you/put Lava Burst at 1 second (that's 4204) and it's not the point where heroism will put Lightning Bolt at 1 second (that's 21,328 with GoUL and 19,772 without it.) No idea where that number comes from.

I also never saw results through reforge plots that I did for my character in the long journey from ~6000 haste to the 12000 I'm at now showing Haste anything other than slightly ahead of mastery up till I got the meta, where it became optimal to drop ~300 haste for mastery.

What talents are you using? The 6050 Number Im quoting is what I have consistently seen for EoTE/EB

And again, Im not arguing that Haste doesnt have Value past 6050...It does, Im just saying that is the Point where it becomes so equal to mastery that its basically your choice what you want to raise. Personally, I dont want much more, because haste is our worst stat by far when you add more targets. Id rather get what I need for Patchwerk, and then go with stats great for Cleaving and AoE, since that is our strong suit, and I like to play to my strengths, rather than try and squeeze out an extra .2% DPS on Patchwerk which were already fairly mediocre at.

Everyone should have a bear Minimum of 6050 however, no dispute that its worth it

[binkenstein]

This is a slightly older Graph (still 5.2 though) from before I got the Meta. Unfortunatley I did not save to my folder the one I made last night after I got the Meta, But I assure you I looked it over and the results were pretty darn similar. Ill run another tonight and Post it tomorrow

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8392/elechart.jpg

This Graph Shows What your patchwerk DPS will be if you reforge More haste from Mastery or Less Haste and Add Mastery. I simmed this when my Character was at 6050 Haste.

As you can see from 1050 Haste to 6050 Haste it was always a DPS gain to reforge into more Haste from Mastery, However Past 6050 Your DPS stays Flat, meaning that the 2 stats are roughly equal. In fact there is definitley a curve at the 7500-9300 haste range where it is definitley a small DPS Loss to Take More Haste eschewing Mastery

There isnt really a Breakpoint Per se, But this graph will show you that Past 6050 haste, reforging More

Actually it shows you how your DPS (note: you in particular, with that particular setup) will be affected if you reforge from one stat to another. You can't infer breakpoints from reforge graphs. Plots are a much better way of doing this, as they are only changing one variable rather than two. It's also useful to provide a reason behind breakpoints, eg: the 8085 one for Shadow Priests, which is easily demonstrated on haste plots.

[Gistwiki]

What talents are you using? The 6050 Number Im quoting is what I have consistently seen for EoTE/EB

And again, Im not arguing that Haste doesnt have Value past 6050...It does, Im just saying that is the Point where it becomes so equal to mastery that its basically your choice what you want to raise. Personally, I dont want much more, because haste is our worst stat by far when you add more targets. Id rather get what I need for Patchwerk, and then go with stats great for Cleaving and AoE, since that is our strong suit, and I like to play to my strengths, rather than try and squeeze out an extra .2% DPS on Patchwerk which were already fairly mediocre at.

Everyone should have a bear Minimum of 6050 however, no dispute that its worth it

EoTE/EB - Moving Mastery -> Haste has almost always shown as a dps increase on my reforge plots, regardless of haste level, up till I got the meta where it showed it was be prudent to drop a bit. At the point I'm at right now, it's showing that it's a dps loss to pick up more haste at the expense of mastery, but it's also a dps loss to drop any haste in favor of mastery.

[Gendori]

Actually it shows you how your DPS (note: you in particular, with that particular setup) will be affected if you reforge from one stat to another. You can't infer breakpoints from reforge graphs. Plots are a much better way of doing this, as they are only changing one variable rather than two. It's also useful to provide a reason behind breakpoints, eg: the 8085 one for Shadow Priests, which is easily demonstrated on haste plots.

I think the disagreement is here in the Language. Ive never said that haste doesn't have Value Past a certain point. What I've been trying to say that is That there is a Point where reforging into more Haste isnt going to net you any meaningful DPS gain. So after a Certain Point, it just becomes personal Preference. Past 6050 you are not going to see any real DPS Gain on a patchwerk fight. If you are Past 6050 and still have more CRIT to reforge, by all means go ahead.

The Caveat in all this though is that Haste is By Far our worst stat when you add any amount of Targets, SO while you can reforge and Gem into 10-15-20k haste or whatever and Not see any real DPS gain (since you are sacrificing SOMETHING to get there), when you start adding targets you are doing yourself a Disservice, so I prefer to take the bear minimum of haste I feel comfortable with, then go mastery

[binkenstein]

I think the disagreement is here in the Language. Ive never said that haste doesn't have Value Past a certain point. What I've been trying to say that is That there is a Point where reforging into more Haste isnt going to net you any meaningful DPS gain. So after a Certain Point, it just becomes personal Preference. Past 6050 you are not going to see any real DPS Gain on a patchwerk fight. If you are Past 6050 and still have more CRIT to reforge, by all means go ahead.

The Caveat in all this though is that Haste is By Far our worst stat when you add any amount of Targets, SO while you can reforge and Gem into 10-15-20k haste or whatever and Not see any real DPS gain (since you are sacrificing SOMETHING to get there), when you start adding targets you are doing yourself a Disservice, so I prefer to take the bear minimum of haste I feel comfortable with, then go mastery

Except you're wrong. There is absolutely no basis for a "minimum required haste" like you've been stating, nor is there no point in reforging into haste when over it. Incidentally, the "top dps build" at the moment is to gear Haste > Mastery, although it's ahead of Mastery > Haste by ~2k dps (or ~1%).

All people read from your statement is "there is a haste breakpoint for Elemental at 6050", which is also incorrect.

[Deleted]

What talents are you using? The 6050 Number Im quoting is what I have consistently seen for EoTE/EB

And again, Im not arguing that Haste doesnt have Value past 6050...It does, Im just saying that is the Point where it becomes so equal to mastery that its basically your choice what you want to raise. Personally, I dont want much more, because haste is our worst stat by far when you add more targets. Id rather get what I need for Patchwerk, and then go with stats great for Cleaving and AoE, since that is our strong suit, and I like to play to my strengths, rather than try and squeeze out an extra .2% DPS on Patchwerk which were already fairly mediocre at.

Everyone should have a bear Minimum of 6050 however, no dispute that its worth it

What if you're talenting PE? From what I understand, the more haste you have, the more damage your FE/EE will do...or am I incorrect?

[Gendori]

Except you're wrong. There is absolutely no basis for a "minimum required haste" like you've been stating, nor is there no point in reforging into haste when over it. Incidentally, the "top dps build" at the moment is to gear Haste > Mastery, although it's ahead of Mastery > Haste by ~2k dps (or ~1%).

All people read from your statement is "there is a haste breakpoint for Elemental at 6050", which is also incorrect.

Ok, before I go further on this, because believe it or not I care more about putting out the proper information than winning an argument

Can we agree that haste is not a linear curve and that past a certain point it does in fact lose value. We can argue how much it loses and past what point it loses value, and ill even stop talking about breakpoints because quite franklyits not important to what im trying to discuss

If we can agree on just that one point, im going to post a brand new reforge plot graph I started last night (hopefully itll be done by the time I get home from work)

We can then look at it and analyze the results. And then based off of it I will then explain why I made the reforge decisions I did, and we can argue about that

Believe me the last thing I really want to do is come off as im telling people to stop at 6050, because its not what im saying and the answer is much more complicated than that

So what do you say....friends?

[binkenstein]

Ok, before I go further on this, because believe it or not I care more about putting out the proper information than winning an argument

Can we agree that haste is not a linear curve and that past a certain point it does in fact lose value. We can argue how much it loses and past what point it loses value, and ill even stop talking about breakpoints because quite franklyits not important to what im trying to discuss

If we can agree on just that one point, im going to post a brand new reforge plot graph I started last night (hopefully itll be done by the time I get home from work)

We can then look at it and analyze the results. And then based off of it I will then explain why I made the reforge decisions I did, and we can argue about that

Believe me the last thing I really want to do is come off as im telling people to stop at 6050, because its not what im saying and the answer is much more complicated than that

So what do you say....friends?

Haste is a curve. The trend line is generally a power 2 formula. There are essentially two areas where haste = mastery, and outside of which it's either mastery > haste or haste > mastery, depending on whether you're between the two areas or not. I'd post the plot graph, but LibreOffice doesn't handle as many columns as Excel does so I can't produce the graph at home. It'll have to wait until I'm in the office on Monday.

It's also worth noting that these cross over areas can change, depending on the rest of your gear. This means that what works for one person won't work for another because they have more/less gear, different talents, etc.

Your reforge graph indicates that you're going from one of those areas where haste > mastery to the haste = mastery crossover. At some point above your reforge plot you may see it going up again, but the problem here is that you're sacrificing one stat for another, whereas my plots are all looking at the status quo + additional stats.

As I've said previously, your results are valid for you, but will not be valid for others.