Dual Wield Frost

[raziel083]

So I've finally hit 90, and throughout leveling I've been dual wielding. As i often do when i hit 90 on a character i go to Icy Veins and here to check up stat prioritizing, etc. And to my dismay, it seems that 2h frost is better dps overall, and I'm wondering why. Is it because of the hit cap? Or the burst? Icy Veins says that 2h is just better single target while dw shines on cleaves and aoe.

One thing i noticed when raiding on my priest was that most frost dk's use a 2'her. I always thought that it was just preference more than anything. I know for me it's mostly preference to dw. I started dw frost tanking back in wrath, so I always just kept it that way when i began leveling again. And i know i shouldn't go by anything really below heroics or under lvl 90 but I watched my dps as I leveled through, and I've always seemed to be able to keep up or top dps meters(i realize there are tons of variables to that statement). This is also while i was throwing interrupts in and watching what was going on...which seems to lack a lot lately with most players.

So tl;dr: How big of a difference is there in dps? Is it enough to hurt me noticeably or is it within reasonable range where i can keep dw-ing frost?

[Deleted]

icy veins is shit, dw frost is fine

[bals]

2hand > dw for single target
dw > 2hand for multi target
the difference isn't that big.

[Kraeth]

Icy Veins isn't really shit if they say 2h is better on ST fights while DW is better at cleave fights. Not sure what the problem here is. The difference between the two of them is so small that you can play whichever spec you enjoy more.

[Deleted]

there are like 3 fights where you cant stick 24/7 at the boss and dont have any aoe. dw is much better at aoe and heavy movement

[Varyk]

Unholy is very far ahead of both, I would work on that.

[Samsarathedk]

2 Hand is NOT > dw (single target)

I play dw and beat the 2 hand frost dk (both in single target and aoe) and am rather competitive with the unholy dk (both single target and aoe). What is all comes down is play the spec you enjoy most as they are all pretty close to each other with the exception of unholy winning in aoe fights due to increased disease damage through pest as well as their mastery effecting blood plague.

[bals]

the exception of unholy winning in aoe fights

really depends on the type of aoe and if it's scumbagging or not.
short burst aoe, frost >>> unholy
long aoe, unholy >>> frost (like council)
scumbagging, unholy >>> frost (tortos, megara, etc...)

[The Firestar]

I think one reason you saw a lot more 2h frost than DW frost when raiding on your priest is simply the way the two styles play. 2h frost plays with the old cataclysm style of play and reforging, with obliterate being your main spell. DW instead plays with the howling blast spec (Otherwise known as MasterFrost), in which you stack tons of mastery and spam howling blast, only using obliterate to consume an unholy rune to keep all your runes recharging. Most frost dks i've spoken to (including myself with my frost off-spec) prefer the obliterate style over MasterFrost for various reasons, ranging from larger numbers on Obliterate to simply "feeling more like a frost dk".

[Samsarathedk]

really depends on the type of aoe and if it's scumbagging or not.
short burst aoe, frost >>> unholy
long aoe, unholy >>> frost (like council)
scumbagging, unholy >>> frost (tortos, megara, etc...)

Yup, I agree

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 12:21 AM ----------

I think one reason you saw a lot more 2h frost than DW frost when raiding on your priest is simply the way the two styles play. 2h frost plays with the old cataclysm style of play and reforging, with obliterate being your main spell. DW instead plays with the howling blast spec (Otherwise known as MasterFrost), in which you stack tons of mastery and spam howling blast, only using obliterate to consume an unholy rune to keep all your runes recharging. Most frost dks i've spoken to (including myself with my frost off-spec) prefer the obliterate style over MasterFrost for various reasons, ranging from larger numbers on Obliterate to simply "feeling more like a frost dk".

Ehh, I have to disagree with the 'stack mastery' comment for dw frost as we actually stack strength at this point (strength gem>mastery gem) and then use gear that has both mastery (favored more so) and haste (as haste is our second best stat behind mastery)

Dw frost stat priority is as follows:
Strength>Strength>Strength>Hit to cap>Expertise to soft cap> Mastery (1.6)>Haste (1.55)> Crit (1.33)

As for dw priority rotation:

1. Diseases (maintain both blood plague and frost fever at all times)
2. Frost strike (with rime or if rp will cap)
3. Soul Reaper (if target is below 35% (45% with current 4 set))
4. Howling Blast (with rime proc or to refresh frost fever)
5. Frost strike (for runic power dump)
6. Obliterate (when you have unholy runes available and plague leech is on cd)
7. Howling Blast (to burn frost and death runes)

Abilities used by dw frost that are NOT used by 2 hand frost:
1. Plague Leech (used when your blood plague is about to fall off (preferably when you have 1 unholy rune available) to gain a free death rune as well as help gain further death runes through the use of blood tap)
2. Blood tap (used to convert those pesky unholy runes into death runes (preferably used when both unholy runes are on cd) to gain free death runes for howling blast spam)

[Vereesa]

2 Hand is NOT > dw (single target)

I play dw and beat the 2 hand frost dk (both in single target and aoe) and am rather competitive with the unholy dk (both single target and aoe). What is all comes down is play the spec you enjoy most as they are all pretty close to each other with the exception of unholy winning in aoe fights due to increased disease damage through pest as well as their mastery effecting blood plague.

Just because you play with incompetent players doesn't make DW the better spec.

OT: While the above is true, the differences are so minimal it won't matter and comes down to preference in practice. Heck, Fuzzqt from Blood Legion played DW Frost for all of progress.

[Samsarathedk]

Just because you play with incompetent players doesn't make DW the better spec.

OT: While the above is true, the differences are so minimal it won't matter and comes down to preference in practice. Heck, Fuzzqt from Blood Legion played DW Frost for all of progress.

Uh bro I neither said they were incompetent nor that dw was the better spec. Perhaps you should have read where I said "All three specs are relatively close so play whatever spec you prefer"? And that statement will hold true UNLESS he is pushing endgame heroic content. Furthermore, even at that point player>spec any day of the year! So kindly read what I typed fully before you try to discredit what I say.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna add my ideas too from being a DW DK (working on lei shen hc this reset) since mop came out in sept 2012.

Stop relying on logs to prove a spec is bad or not. Just like Vereesa said it's not because logs say "scumbag i leech dmg UH spec" comes out to be ahead with 20k to 60k dps on some bosses doesn't mean playing DW is bad. ofc it comes ahead without any leech, but the difference is minimal and will not make you wipe on bosses.

DW is more than fine, if u like it, have gear for it, play it. Plain simple. You can be on heroic progress or not, doesn't matter as long as you like it and are geared for it (yes it's important people get this idea).
Real questions are : Did you kill the boss in time ? Did you still did the dmg that your spec allow you to do ? If both answers are yes, move along.

Hell in a guild with 2 dps DKs, with one being UH and the other DW it's possible to gear up two players at the same time since apart from set they won't roll on same items most of the time (rings aside). Trust me in a 25 man guild it's really appreciable, at least in ours .

Still not convinced and your guild only cares about logs ? Fine. I'm in a respectable guild working on lei shen heroic on this reset for the first time, i've been DW for the whole content and if i had to copy my logs on all fights to UH logs (basic dps number copyonly) i'ld have still been in top 150.
You know what, ofc there's better but did i apply to world 15/20th guilds ? No, but i still got offers to join some because my logs were clean and competitive (i don't have the time and dedication for it).
Competitive, yes that's the only keyword, rest is entirely dependent on what your raid allows you to do, i'm not able to leech once, i'm always on shitty mechanics because i very rarely fuck up and thus can be trust to do raid wipe mechanisms but still my logs are fine.

Enjoy the game, not the logs !

[raziel083]

I appreciate all of the input. And I got my answer in so many ways, many thanks. I was under the misconception that dw would be more sustained damage, and that 2h was burst damage. And as far as stat prioritizing I was going for haste over mastery, so I'll have to switch that around. A couple of other talents I'll try switching out as well. And I do rather enjoy dw over 2h for some reason. So until thing drastically change where it becomes dead, I'm gonna stick with it.

The one thing i don't understand though is how dw benefits more from howling blast over obliterate. I'm assuming that has to do with weapon speed, or is it weapon damage? Wasn't sure whether that was explained or not. I understand that when stacking mastery that howling blast will definitely benefit from that because of frost damage but specifically not why in dw vs 2h.

[Deleted]

The one thing i don't understand though is how dw benefits more from howling blast over obliterate. I'm assuming that has to do with weapon speed, or is it weapon damage? Wasn't sure whether that was explained or not. I understand that when stacking mastery that howling blast will definitely benefit from that because of frost damage but specifically not why in dw vs 2h.

Simply because 2 Howling blasts = More damage than a single Obl as DW. It is vice versa for 2H when 2 Howling blasts = Less damage than a single Obl, its as simple as that really.

And as for the 3 specs, they're all fine just choose the play style that suits your gear set really like others have said beforehand.

[raziel083]

^ Thanks for elaborating veng. And yeah now i see the difference.... just did a heroic. My next question specifically to sam but if anyone else uses these two talents can answer this. Currently I use unholy blight vs plague leech. I'd be better off switching? And considering my biggest damage dealer is Frost strike, why would i choose Blood tap over runic corruption. Runic corruption increase rune power generation by 100%, and i know it's by using frost strike but i would still think that's better no?


Edit. I also ask about plague leech vs UhB because frost strike benefits from both diseases being up.

[Samsarathedk]

^ Thanks for elaborating veng. And yeah now i see the difference.... just did a heroic. My next question specifically to sam but if anyone else uses these two talents can answer this. Currently I use unholy blight vs plague leech. I'd be better off switching? And considering my biggest damage dealer is Frost strike, why would i choose Blood tap over runic corruption. Runic corruption increase rune power generation by 100%, and i know it's by using frost strike but i would still think that's better no?


Edit. I also ask about plague leech vs UhB because frost strike benefits from both diseases being up.

Yes you would be better off switching to plague leech as it smooths out moments of downtime (and trust me you will find moments of downtime on long fights like heroic tortos, lei shen, council, heroic twins, heroic qon, etc).

Frost strike does NOT benefit from having both diseases being up that is obliterate and you WILL be reapplying blood plague through the use of plague strike after you use plague leech (remember to use it when you have only 1 unholy rune available and enough runic power to force enough blood charges to convert your on cool down unholy runes to death runes via blood tap then use the ability).

If you have any other questions feel free to ask and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

[Deleted]

DW spec has the lowest downtime if any of all the 3 specs. If played right via AMS soaking u won't get any unless u destroy the "proper" rotation in order to apply burst in situations where doing a smooth rotation isn't necessary (ex : adds on megaera hc, adds on horridon sometimes, adds on hc animus depending on strat used for melee etc). When that happens, ERW is there (long CD tho' so calculate before ).

This is with plague leech and blood tap ofc. I'm pretty sure RE would work too, i just love runes on demand especially death ones to apply max AoE burst constantly and smooth my range rotation for whenever i can't melee because of X or Y raid range mechanism or shitty situations (ex : getting debuff on hc qon p2 because a range sucks balls and thus u "have" to sit in range until it wears off).

[Samsarathedk]

DW spec has the lowest downtime if any of all the 3 specs. If played right via AMS soaking u won't get any unless u destroy the "proper" rotation in order to apply burst in situations where doing a smooth rotation isn't necessary (ex : adds on megaera hc, adds on horridon sometimes, adds on hc animus depending on strat used for melee etc). When that happens, ERW is there (long CD tho' so calculate before ).

This is with plague leech and blood tap ofc. I'm pretty sure RE would work too, i just love runes on demand especially death ones to apply max AoE burst constantly and smooth my range rotation for whenever i can't melee because of X or Y raid range mechanism or shitty situations (ex : getting debuff on hc qon p2 because a range sucks balls and thus u "have" to sit in range until it wears off).

Actually, you will find downtime, roughly 1-2 seconds occasionally if you do not use plague leech and use it effectively and there is ample time in dw rotation to weave it in Plague leech is one of several effective tools for a dw dk to use to keep his downtime at a minimum, choosing to neglect one of said tools results in gimping one's overall damage output and should be avoided at all costs.

As to your comment about using re as dw and it 'working as well' have you actually tried using re as dw? It is a dps loss, blood tap is the only effective means for gaining runes as dw frost. What you are suggesting would be like telling an unholy dk to run with re, it simply does not synchronize with the spec's playstyle. Dw frost is all about having a limitless plethora of resources to blast the boss with resulting in net gain of substantial damage through the use of essentially double the resources of 2 hand frost to make up for their high obliterate crits i.e. 2 dw frost howling blasts>= 1 2 hand frost obliterate.

[Deleted]

Unless you're in a hardcore raiding guild that does heroic modes you shouldn't worry and go for whichever you find fun.