Is WoW always going to be like this?

[Kelimbror]

Nice try to you. Why would I want to play in the PGA if I can play Augusta as a weekend warrior? Anything past that would be purely about the competition, which not everyone cares about.

You've almost single handedly explained both how they are different and why they are acceptable. Why do you need to play in the PGA when you can play those courses? All that requires is you pay the same entry fee as everyone else. In this case the $15/month that is required as a members fee. You can play the course all you like, but you don't get any of the perks that come from playing in the PGA. Your tournaments don't award millions, they award a couple hundred bucks. You don't get amazing and prestigious trophies, but you do get a few mementoes that may mean something to you personally. The more you talk, the more you disprove yourself. Keep it up.

[Thage]

lol, anyone who thinks it's about exclusion is vain themselves.

You can couch it in whatever language you like, demanding the removal of LFR is ultimately about wanting something other people can't have, which is exclusion by definition.

Get it through your head....LFR REMOVES INCENTIVE TO GO TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
Why?
Because what most people care about is SEEING THE RAID, which LFR offers.

It is that simple.

Then I would point out that if people don't want to go to the next level, it says more about the state of raiding in Normal+ than it does about why LFR is bad for the game. It suggests that Normal+ are a waste of dev time and resources and that the game should not be, in fact, catered to that demographic.

It is that simple.

[Dormie]

You can couch it in whatever language you like, demanding the removal of LFR is ultimately about wanting something other people can't have, which is exclusion by definition.

Then I would point out that if people don't want to go to the next level, it says more about the state of raiding in Normal+ than it does about why LFR is bad for the game. It suggests that Normal+ are a waste of dev time and resources and that the game should not be, in fact, catered to that demographic.

It is that simple.

NO. It IS about LFR, the fact that LFR is faceroll easy. All that it is required is for LFR to actually require everyone to put in the effort.

The point the OP is making is that no effort is required to see end game content.

THEREFORE..The 'challenge' and useless gear alone is not incentive to put in the effort.

[Gurbz]

The amateur tournament should be removed because it's not an amateur tournament, it's a pro tournament that the amateurs get to play in because THEY want to be special.

To stop with the example. LFR awards everyone with end game content regardless if they put in the effort to get to the 'end game'. Thus, destroying the 'end game' content. The so called 'elitists' don't care about you, they care about the game and what your desires do to it.
InB4 'LFR isn't end game'

Except that you are completely wrong. The golf analogy is a great one, you are just not following it to its logical conclusion because it doesn't support your position.

So I'll keep with the golf analogy. Heroic raiding is like The Masters tournament. The gear drops are equivalent to the tournament prize checks. Those involved play at a level that most people could never achieve, and are rewarded in proportion to that level of skill.

LFR is an amateur tournament held at Augusta National. Same scenery, essentially the same game, though they would use the normal tees instead of the pro tees and would have more forgiving pin placements. And the payout is much smaller, because the level of play is not as high as The Masters and the tournament is not as prestigious.

The professional golfers don't care that the unwashed masses are playing on the same grounds that they walked. Average people play that course every single day, because to do so doesn't take effort or even skill. Just time and money. It does not affect the pros or their tournament one bit, so why should they care? Similarly, there is no reason a heroic (or even Normal honestly) raider should give a damn that LFR exists. It does not effect them, their accomplishments, or anything else for that matter. Anyone who says otherwise is being exclusionary for no reason other than to be a jerk.

[re1gn1te]

Can anyone help me? After I saw this video it got me worried....because I was thinking of coming back in Draenor...but if things will be like this I really don't know anymore.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

min 3:35 (may the trolling begin)

Are things this bad? Can ANY player no matter how bad they are be able to do 100% of the content (Heroic modes not included).

I don't play the game for a long time because how things were in Pandaria. Easy accessibility and easy content for everyone removed my will for progression and willpower to continue playing. That and a community that was getting more antisocial by the second with Instanced content being the top priority at the moment. No more Socializing in the open World ( the Isle of Thunder made hoping for more content with pvp encounters and social gameplay in the world....)

Can someone plz get my hopes up for Draenor? :C

Mod-note: Fixed your link.

Sorry to burst your bubble but yes the game is a casualised shit hole now. Literally any monkey that can reach level 90 can see all of the content. Blizzard has done a very good job to decentivise people from raiding. LFR completely ruined raiding for this game. I wouldn't get my hopes up for PvE in the next expansion, or really in any future expansions for this game. If you're into PvP allot of good changes comming it'd also be a good time to get into PvP.

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

Ah I see, you have missed all of the clarifications in the last bajillion pages. No, the OP doesn't like that people get to look cool and wear the models of tier epics from doing LFR. Essentially they are angry that amateurs can wear PGA licensed material at the clubhouse. Sorry, but that's honestly the shallow argument that has been ranted about for the last few pages.

[Thage]

NO. It IS about LFR, the fact that LFR is faceroll easy. All that it is required is for LFR to actually require everyone to put in the effort.

The point the OP is making is that no effort is required to see end game content.

THEREFORE..The 'challenge' and useless gear alone is not incentive to put in the effort.

Then Normal+ is a waste of dev time and effort. Axe both, put the funds into casual content.

You are making my arguments for me, to which I say, thank you for doing all my work. If people aren't interested in Normal/Heroic, then removing LFR or making it hard isn't going to change that. Even the devs have said LFR's primary demographic is from people who never bothered with raiding before and that it literally saved raiding.

So, yeah. Thrash about some more. You lot are no longer the target demographic and no sane business would make it so at the expense of 60% of the playerbase.

[Dormie]

Except that you are completely wrong. The golf analogy is a great one, you are just not following it to its logical conclusion because it doesn't support your position.

So I'll keep with the golf analogy. Heroic raiding is like The Masters tournament. The gear drops are equivalent to the tournament prize checks. Those involved play at a level that most people could never achieve, and are rewarded in proportion to that level of skill.

LFR is an amateur tournament held at Augusta National. Same scenery, essentially the same game, though they would use the normal tees instead of the pro tees and would have more forgiving pin placements. And the payout is much smaller, because the level of play is not as high as The Masters and the tournament is not as prestigious.

The professional golfers don't care that the unwashed masses are playing on the same grounds that they walked. Average people play that course every single day, because to do so doesn't take effort or even skill. Just time and money. It does not affect the pros or their tournament one bit, so why should they care? Similarly, there is no reason a heroic (or even Normal honestly) raider should give a damn that LFR exists. It does not effect them, their accomplishments, or anything else for that matter. Anyone who says otherwise is being exclusionary for no reason other than to be a jerk.

The reason it's a bad comparison is that the PGA is purely about the competition. So if an amateur golfer sees Augusta as an amateur, unless they care about becoming a pro golfer, they don't care about eventually joining the PGA.
In the same way, if a LFR can see 'Augusta' in LFR, and don't care about the competition, that is enough for them. Therefore hurting everything past LFR.

- - - Updated - - -

Then Normal+ is a waste of dev time and effort. Axe both, put the funds into casual content.

You are making my arguments for me, to which I say, thank you for doing all my work. If people aren't interested in Normal/Heroic, then removing LFR or making it hard isn't going to change that. Even the devs have said LFR's primary demographic is from people who never bothered with raiding before and that it literally saved raiding.

So, yeah. Thrash about some more. You lot are no longer the target demographic and no sane business would make it so at the expense of 60% of the playerbase.

The point you're missing is that LFR is what takes away peoples interest in Normal/Heroic. Flex raids are PLENTY easy enough for your average casual, LFR does not need to exist.

[Ronduwil]

LFR awards everyone with end game content regardless if they put in the effort to get to the 'end game'. Thus, destroying the 'end game' content.

Blizzard isn't in the business of handing out awards; they're in the business of collecting subscription fees. They're not going to devote millions of dollars to developing an "award" for a few thousand players because that's only going to maintain a few thousand subscriptions. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. I keep posting this link because it's about the best advice I've seen on the internet. I strongly urge you to read about the 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person in order to help you prioritize the kinds of awards you should be pursuing as well as to set your expectations for how a corporation is going to behave.

[Deleted]

lol, anyone who thinks it's about exclusion is vain themselves.

Get it through your head....LFR REMOVES INCENTIVE TO GO TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
Why?
Because what most people care about is SEEING THE RAID, which LFR offers. Not to mention that you can still get at least 1 mount and decent gear from LFR.

It is that simple. Why would I want to gear up to do the same raid I geared up from?

Maybe you should calm down and get something through your head for a change. LFR removes the incentive only from those that are okay with inferior gear in the first place. And most of these people never intended to raid anything above LFR in the first place.
In short: if LFR didn't exist, these people wouldn't be running flex or higher, they'd just be in timeless isle gear instead of LFR gear.
I'm running LFR and I still want to progress on higher difficulties.

[Thage]

The point you're missing is that LFR is what takes away peoples interest in Normal/Heroic.

Except you are factually wrong. Devs have said time and time again LFR does not pull from Normal/Heroic. It pulls from the crowd that never raided.

Or are you seriously going to sit there and lie to me, expecting me to believe, at your own word, with no proof, that 60% of all level-capped players were raiders before 4.3?

edit: In fact, please do so. It would be the best joke I've heard all week and I'm laughing hard as it is. I could go for a gutbuster.

[Dormie]

Maybe you should calm down and get something through your head for a change. LFR removes the incentive only from those that are okay with inferior gear in the first place. And most of these people never intended to raid anything above LFR in the first place.
In short: if LFR didn't exist, these people wouldn't be running flex or higher, they'd just be in timeless isle gear instead of LFR gear.
I'm running LFR and I still want to progress on higher difficulties.

Ok you speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself. If I hadn't been through all the raids multiple times, I would still be doing Normal/Heroic raids as I did in the past. But because I've seen it all, I have no reason to go higher.

- - - Updated - - -

Except you are factually wrong. Devs have said time and time again LFR does not pull from Normal/Heroic. It pulls from the crowd that never raided.

Or are you seriously going to sit there and lie to me, expecting me to believe, at your own word, with no proof, that 60% of all level-capped players were raiders before 4.3?

lol, well if the Devs said it it must be true! Cause we all know they've polled every player...
Not 100% of level capped players care to raid to begin with.


This isn't a big mystery. To give another example...if I beat someone in a boxing match, I wouldn't care about then going and beating them again with 1 hand tied behind my back. It's just redundant...I already won. In the same way, I already beat Garrosh, I don't need to put in more work just to do it again with 1 hand tied behind my back.

[Alarayel]

The point you're missing is that LFR is what takes away peoples interest in Normal/Heroic.

Who cares? Let normal/heroic die for all the shit anyone outside of that small demographic gives.

[Thage]

lol, well if the Devs said it it must be true! Cause we all know they've polled every player...

I believe the people with the numbers more than some random disgruntled guy on an internet forum throwing a tantrum over a game having an easy mode who can't bring forth any proof. Mine's on the front page, where's yours?

Not 100% of level capped players care to raid to begin with.

60% do, thanks to LFR. That's a much bigger demographic than the sub-10% who have done Heroic, or the 20%ish who have done Normal.

[Deleted]

Ok you speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself. If I hadn't been through all the raids multiple times, I would still be doing Normal/Heroic raids as I did in the past. But because I've seen it all, I have no reason to go higher.

If you speak for yourself, why do you talk as if LFR destroyed the incentive to raid for everyone?

[Alarayel]

60% do, thanks to LFR. That's a much bigger demographic than the sub-10% who have done Heroic, or the 20%ish who have done Normal.

I have a feeling we're a few posts away from him trying to spin the fantasy that hardcores somehow make casuals stay subscribed. It's usually what his ilk resort to when their tiny numbers make them feel insecure.

[Bathory]

Doing LFR is seeing 100% of the game? I think you're just looking for an excuse to get angry.

LFR has NOT taken away my motivation for normal/heroic, if anything it has made me want to do them more. Either way, it's situational and depends on the player.

[Gurbz]

The reason it's a bad comparison is that the PGA is purely about the competition. So if an amateur golfer sees Augusta as an amateur, unless they care about becoming a pro golfer, they don't care about eventually joining the PGA.
In the same way, if a LFR can see 'Augusta' in LFR, and don't care about the competition, that is enough for them. Therefore hurting everything past LFR.

- - - Updated - - -



The point you're missing is that LFR is what takes away peoples interest in Normal/Heroic. Flex raids are PLENTY easy enough for your average casual, LFR does not need to exist.

You are making the false, though understandable, assumption that those that are solely doing LFR would automatically move to higher difficulty raids if LFR did not exist. There is no evidence to support this. While true that the average player could probably handle Flex, there is currently no method by which to automatically assemble a group in the same manner that LFR does. Thus it requires a scheduled time commitment (the raid starts at X time) that many people are unwilling or unable to commit to. It is for people like that specifically that LFR exists. Based on statistics released by Blizzard, as well as independent research done by this very site, the majority of people who do LFR had not raided at all prior to it's addition to the game.

Now, if you want to argue for the increasing of the difficulty of LFR up to at least the level of Flex raiding, that is another conversation. But removing LFR entirely is not a viable idea for what it seems you wish to acomplish.

[Dormie]

I believe the people with the numbers more than some random disgruntled guy on an internet forum throwing a tantrum over a game having an easy mode who can't bring forth any proof. Mine's on the front page, where's yours?

You don't have proof, actually. What you have is what Blizzard tells you. Like I said, I was never polled on why I do what I do. So how can Blizzard possibly know? Think about that, I wasn't polled, you weren't polled, Bliz has no idea.

60% do, thanks to LFR. That's a much bigger demographic than the sub-10% who have done Heroic, or the 20%ish who have done Normal.

And that matters becaauuuseee...?

If you speak for yourself, why do you talk as if LFR destroyed the incentive to raid for everyone?

Who said I am? I can speak for others who have the same opinion as me.

[Thage]

You don't have proof, actually. What you have is what Blizzard tells you. Like I said, I was never polled on why I do what I do. So how can Blizzard possibly know? Think about that, I wasn't polled, you weren't polled, Bliz has no idea.

Because they totally can't just look at participation rates before and after LFR was implemented and what accounts were doing what difficulties. I mean, we can't even do that on the Armory!

Wait, we can.

And that matters becaauuuseee...?

Because you're acting like you represent some more-deserving demographic. Any business that shafts a majority demographic for a minority is retarded.