Possible solution for Demon Hunter lovers.

[Deleted]

We have now cleared all misconceptions about how DH and warlock share the same lore and motivations, now we have only the same magic school and general "theme". Priests and paladins share the same magic school and general theme, light. Still paladin and priest works as different classes. Yeah, priest does have shadow spec but no one is complaining about how it overlaps with warlocks shadow magic and shadow priest is even caster.

Also shadow priest was largely invention of WoW, even though WC3 does have shadowpriest troll.

[Skorpionss]

Your argument is more like we should ignore Arthas' influence on DKs because he's a bad guy who does bad things.
.

I didn't even mention Death Knights... but w/e I'm getting bored of this discussion.

[Teriz]

We have now cleared all misconceptions about how DH and warlock share the same lore and motivations, now we have only the same magic school and general "theme". Priests and paladins share the same magic school and general theme, light. Still paladin and priest works as different classes. Yeah, priest does have shadow spec but no one is complaining about how it overlaps with warlocks shadow magic and shadow priest is even caster.

Also shadow priest was largely invention of WoW, even though WC3 does have shadowpriest troll.

Classes aren't implemented based on lore and motivations. They're implemented based on design and theme. Lore can be changed, altered, or evolved in order to make a class fit. However, you can't change the theme or design of a class concept. Especially a concept as storied as the Demon Hunter. Demon Hunters will always be linked to Illidan. DHs will always be linked to demons, and so forth.

Again, look at the Tinker concept to see an example of a class concept that fits into the game, is free of class overlap, and has plenty of design space. You can start with Gazlowe if you like, but you can include the WC3 Tinker hero as well. There's plenty to work with, and unlike DHs, we don't have to gut the concept, or the concepts of existing classes in order to fit it into the game.

[Yig]

Not to detract from the jousts and melee upon on the field, ladies and sires, as I am but a humble spectator who but offers my hopes and fears and wild fancies,...:P but I truly love this twist on context where warlocks who stole Illidan's ability to morph into a demon wearing the dead body parts and fel torn patches of the robes of Illidan as trophies are supposed to represent Blizzard letting Warlocks dress up to look like a demon hunter. It's truly among the most shallow and superficial of equations littering this pile of slippery contrarian dodges.

I guess hunters wearing the body parts of Lucifron made hunters the equivalent, or hunter's wearing old god eyes, or hunters wearing dragonstalker, or necromancer skulls...The mountain of arrogant self indulgent observations presented as self evident and intrinsic laws being contorted and shoved down people's throats here on such a consistent regular and unrelenting basis is a goddamned phenomenon unto itself.

Thimagryn's patience and ability to remain impartial and logical in the face of this onslaught is a breathtaking feat to behold, as is his/her unrelenting and unshakable brevity and logic as it is constantly under fire. The straw man accusation they have a horse in this race other than giving voice to a reasonable devil's advocate, it's a cherry on the top.

Then we have varying degrees of wild often far fetched speculation and bias on both sides of the fence making this one of the most legendary spectacles of hair splitting I've ever seen on any issue, even in politics and law.

We've reached goddamned planck state here folks. Can we split this hair any further than it's been split? The shade of Einstein disagrees, but the man hated the quantum. Crucify him for his bias and let's ask someone else.

Just when you think the feedback loop of circular arguments is coming back around some variable manifests in this mandelbrot and a whole new branch of fractal emergence unfolds offering ever more hairs to split and assumptions to assume over what for so many years was simply for the most part obvious and self evident to the fanbase beyond the edges of the spectrum where lines blur as spectrums are wont to do.

It's like watching the battle of Thermopylae, live from the window of our time traveling Delorean, safely hovering here above the Hot Gates. A lone voice of logic below amidst the gale of Persia's forces.

What a delight it will be to look back on these bookmarks should the pendulum ever swing one way or another in this game's future. I've yet to see a single naysayer on the plausible existence of Pandaren in WOW fess up to the hours and paragraphs dedicated to the contrary. I sure hope a resolution arises one day, for now the world may never know.

I know one thing. Of these two images, I myself (Yig) prefer brand X, should the demon hunter of WC3 ever be broken down to their essentials and given life as a Warcraft anti hero questing across the lands and planes, fighting at the side of the world's heroes.

But then he's just a rogue ready to play Pin the Tail on the Donkey apparently.

While the other is just a warlock, I mean demon hunter, I mean,... warlock. I mean,...demon hunter.

[Deleted]

I decided to write my own concept idea of Demon hunter class.

Here is how I see Demon hunter class, as a furious melee fighter who enchances himself with demonic energies using fel//fire/shadow magic with 2 dps and 1 tanking specialization. Demon hunter does not have any passive tanking bonus but instead focuses on major damage absorption during combat. Damage dealing specs have unique resources. Numbers are only to give general idea of the abilities.

Images are from wowdb and wowwiki.

Armor specialization
leather
Primary attribute
Intellect


General Abilities:


The demon within
3 minute cooldown
Instant cast
Demon hunter transforms himself into a demon, gaining entirely new set of abilities but is unable to use normal Demon hunter abilities. Lasts 30 seconds.

----------------Demon abilities

Doombolt
Instant cast
2 charges
6 second charge
Sends forth a bolt of doom, dealing 400 damage to enemy target.

Fel cleave
Instant cast
Sweeps demonic claw through the opponents, dealing 300 damage to all enemies in front of the demon.

Shadow realm
Instant cast
2 minute cooldown
Grips enemy target and transfers both demon and the target into a shadow realm for 6 seconds. In shadow realm, 2 demons
come to aid Demon hunter in attacking the target and all damage done is increased by 20%.

Demonic flight
Instant cast
Cooldown 1 minute
Demon rises from the ground temporarily flying, increasing movement speed by 100%.

Demon armor
Instant cast
1 minute cooldown
Decreases all damage taken by 30%


Devour magic
Consumes up to 3 buffs from enemy target, for each consumed buff the Demon hunter gains 100 hit points and 80 mana.


Demonic Rush
Instant cast
Run towards targeted point at great speed, leaving trail of blazing felfire burning all enemies along the way and damaging all enemies around the target area for 800 felfire damage in radius of 8 yards.


Fel shackles
Instant cast
Immobiles enemy for 4 seconds.


Shadow prison
Imprisons enemy in shadow realm for 8 seconds.


Hoof strike
Instant cast
30 second cooldown
Stuns the target for 5 seconds


Regeneration
Demon hunter enters in meditative state and heals himself for 3% of total health every 1 second, lasts 10 seconds or until cancelled. Demon hunter is immune to all damage during the effect and unable to attack.


Throw glaive
20 yard range
Throw glaives at target enemy dealing 200 damage.

Specialization descriptions:

Glaivemaster
Damage dealing spec, demon hunter specializes in empowerment of weapons. Abilities are centralized around gathering and focusing demonic energies and vitality of opponents to unleash dark powers through demon hunters weapons. Unique resource system, Chaos Energy which is generated through various abilities.


Darklance
Instant cast
Strike an enemy with weapon dealing 200 shadow damage and inflicting target with Consuming shadows dealing 15 shadow damage every 1 second, lasts 20 seconds. Void bolt refreshes the Consuming shadows. Gives 50 chaos energy.


Void bolt
Instant cast
10 second cooldown
3 charges
Sends a bolt of dark magic at enemy dealing 200 shadow damage, if target is affected by Consuming shadows the damage is increased by 30%. Gives 80 chaos energy.


Mana burn
Instant cast
Burns target mana for 10 000 mana over 10 seconds dealing arcane damage equal to mana burnt and gives 10 chaos energy per every 1000 mana burnt.


Fury of Azzinoth
Instant cast
2 minute cooldown
Demon hunter gains Fury of the Azzinoth, striking with both weapons with a great force causing 500 arcane damage and 500 physical damage over 5 seconds, also applies bleed effect for 4 seconds for 100% of the physical damage done and slowing the target for 8 seconds. Gives 100 chaos energy over 4 seconds.


Flame burst
1.5 second cast
Unleashes a blast of fire in 10 yard radius around the Demon Hunter, burning all enemies for 8000 damage and additional 2000 as burning debuff over 3 seconds. Gives 200 chaos energy.


Empower weapon: Taint of Sargeras
Chaos energy cost 1000
Instant cast
Empowers the Demon Hunters weapons with Taint of Sargeras, increasing attack speed by 100% and increasing damage done by both weapons by 100% and adds 100 felfire damage on every hit at the cost of health. 3% of health is lost every 2 second for the duration of effect. Lasts 20 seconds.


Empower weapon: Waters of Eternity
Chaos energy cost 1000
Instant cast
Empowers the Demon Hunters weapons with Waters of Eternity, shielding demon hunter and all allies in 8 yard radius for 20000 damage and Demon Hunter gains +200 arcane damage to all abilities. Lasts 20 seconds.


Empower weapon: Curse of Kil Jaeden
Chaos energy cost 1000
Empowers Demon Hunters weapons with curse of Kil Jaeden, making all Demon Hunters melee attacks heal the Demon Hunter for 2% of total health, but increases damage taken by 20%. Lasts 20 seconds.


Fel master
Damage dealing specialization. Demon hunter becomes one with the demonic energies, changes appearance by growing permanent demonic wings. Unique resource system, Fel Essence. Abilities are divided into two categories; mana abilities and Fel Essence abilities. Use mana abilities to gain Fel Essence and spend the Fel Essence to use more powerful abilities.


Felstrike
Melee range
Instant cast
Strike felflaming weapons at enemy target, dealing 1000 felfire damage.


Flame crash
4 second cooldown
Melee range
Instant cast
Magic infused weapon attack which deals 1000 fire damage and applies Fire vulnerability, increasing fire damage taken by 10%. Gives 1 Fel Essence.


Shadowstorm
Melee range
8 second cooldown
Demon Hunter does series of powerful weapon attacks, dealing 2000 physical damage + 50% shadow damage. Also applies Hungering Shadows effect, removing cast time of next Shadow blast. Can move while channeling. Gives 1 Fel Essence. Demon Hunter is unable to use any other abilities during Shadowstorm.


Shadow blast
10 yard range
2 second cast
Deals 3000 shadow damage to the target and all enemies around in 8 yard radius. Gives 1 Fel Essence.


Fel barrage
10 second cooldown
2 Fel Essence
20 yard range
Instant cast
A barrage of demonic magic strikes the target for 3000 fel fire damage, and does 3000 fel fire damage over 10 seconds.


Aura of dread
3 Fel Essence
20 second cooldown
Instant cast
Deals 2000 felshadow damage to all enemy targets in 10 yard radius, slowing their movement speed by 40%.


Summon shadow demon
2 Fel Essence
Instant cast
Summons a shadow demon to fight for the Demon Hunter for 30 seconds. Shadow demon slows enemies movement speed and applies root effect every 10 second.


Vampiric draw
3 Fel Essence
3 second channel
40 second cooldown
Deals 10 000 shadow damage over 3 seconds in a frontal cone healing the Demon hunter for 2% percentage of damage dealt and gives 100 chaos energy over 10 seconds per target. Cannot be interrupted.


Demonic Enrage
1 minute cooldown
Instant cast
4 Fel Essence
Decreases the remaining cooldown of The demon within by 50%


Dark Protector
Demon hunter specializes on protecting allies against enemies.


Crippling strike
Instant cast
10% mana
10 second cooldown
Impales target with burning weapon, decreasing damage done by 10% for 20 seconds and applying Burning wounds causing agonizing pain decreasing the damage done by the next attack by 10%.


Empowering strike
5% mana
Demon hunter strikes the target with burning hatred gaining Empowernment of soul, increasing attack speed and reducing all damage taken by 10%. Empowernment of soul stacks up to 3 times.


Wall of shadow
Instant cast
30% mana
Demon hunter summons a wall of shadow, obscuring all attacks against Demon hunter and allies behind the Wall of shadow.


Fel provoke
10 second cooldown
10% mana
Damaging attacks against the Demon Hunter causes accumulation of Fel Charges, Demon hunter can gain up to 10 charges and can unleash them to absorb 2000 damage per charge for the next 20 seconds and damage all nearby enemies for 10% the absorbed damage.


Fel provoke (unleash)
Unleashes Fel Charges.


Demonic Fortification
Instant cast
30% mana
1 minute cooldown
Demon hunter gains Demonic Fortification, increasing health and armor value of all items by 500% while under the effect of The demon within.


Ring of fire
Instant cast
20% mana
20 second cooldown
Demon hunter draws protective ring of fire, absorbing up to 10 000 damage and infuses the Demon hunter with Felflame increasing all damage done by 20% for 10 seconds. Enemies crossing the ring of fire take 5000 fire damage.


Waters of Eternity
Instant cast
2 minute cooldown
Demon hunter splashes the waters of Well of Eternity, shielding the Demon hunter and all allies in 20 yard radius from all damage for 5 seconds and healing everyone for 20 000.

[Teriz]

I decided to write my own concept idea of Demon hunter class.

Here is how I see Demon hunter class, as a furious melee fighter who enchances himself with demonic energies using fel//fire/shadow magic with 2 dps and 1 tanking specialization. Demon hunter does not have any passive tanking bonus but instead focuses on major damage absorption during combat. Damage dealing specs have unique resources. Numbers are only to give general idea of the abilities.

I admire the effort and the hard work. However, your concept proves my point. This class is an enhanced amalgamation of Rogues and Warlocks and would do nothing more than replace them on the rosters of every raid or group available. It doesn't help that the vast majority of those abilities are things Locks and Rogues can do already, just under different names.

[Thimagryn]

So a Mage has never sent its Elemental out to die so that it could escape? Seriously?

Does that count as malicious intent? No. What you're describing is no different than a general sending troops to the front line in war when the they need to cover an escape route.

Warlocks literally sacrifice their demonic minions to gain power. Minions that have names, mind you, whereas Water Elementals are arguably conjured masses of water. WoW was the first instance of showing sentient elemental creatures, and it's not exactly explained if what Mages conjure up are in fact the same type of Elementals that Shamans speak to, or if they're simply animated bodies of water using Magic. The only instance where we're shown they are sentient is when Jaina used the Focusing Iris to 'enslave' thousands of water elementals, but just as well it was one case where she totally flipped her mind and was using a powerful item to achieve that power. In all other cases, Water Elementals are not considered truly sentient creatures.

There's more fan discussion here. General consensus is that they are not sentient creatures.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11423412292

So a DH is killing Demons and draining their powers with love in their hearts?

It's a case of Demon Hunters killing their enemies. Demon Hunters don't make friends with Demons, that's a general given their namesake.

Warlocks will make pets out of Demons. Pets they are willing to sacrifice.

According to Well of eternity, Illidan was demonic before he consumed the skull.

And this is a shining example why a Demon Hunter Class' Lore should not be derived from Illidan. You can base the general theme, looks and gameplay on Illidan for all purpose, but lore would obviously be different. Simply apply the same logic used when relating the Death Knight class to Arthas. Player DK's aren't all Lich Kings who destroyed Lordaeron, after all.

Demons and Demon Hunters also go hand in hand, which is why Blizzard is purposely linking the two concepts.

Their relationship is not fully explained (again, ignoring Illidari, who are bad guys). Demon Hunters made pacts long ago with demons, and they have the power to invoke a shadowy 'Demon Form'. They are also dedicated to fighting Demons, as a means of their origins and possibly ongoing motivation. That's about the extent of their relationship as far as we know.

To say they go 'hand in hand' though is like saying Paladins and the Undead go hand in hand. If you mean Demon Hunters and Demons are buddy buddy, then you're only talking about Illidan and the Illidari, who are actively seen as betrayers and enemies to all.

- - - Updated - - -

Since Warlocks and DHs are essentially doing the same thing, motivations behind those actions isn't enough to justify a DH class. A DH has to bring something new to the table in order for it to function as a unique WoW class.

Two different arguments here. The separation of motivation is a direct counter to why Demon Hunters and Warlocks are not the same, and furthermore should not be the same. While motivations alone are not enough to warrant a new class, it is enough to deny a Demon Hunter spec for Warlocks. You would be fusing two classes that do not share the same goals or intent. This is like adding a 'Scarlet Crusader' spec to Paladins.

So far the only thing I've heard that separates a DH from a Warlock is some vague moral code that not even the main DH Illidan practiced himself. However, even if Illidan was the holiest of holies, that still wouldn't justify bringing in what is essentially a Warlock class with a melee component.

Then you are confusing Illidan with a playable class. Not our fault you're confusing the motivations of a characterized villain with a potential player class in the Alliance and Horde.

[Teriz]

Two different arguments here. The separation of motivation is a direct counter to why Demon Hunters and Warlocks are not the same, and furthermore should not be the same. While motivations alone are not enough to warrant a new class, it is enough to deny a Demon Hunter spec for Warlocks. You would be fusing two classes that do not share the same goals or intent. This is like adding a 'Scarlet Crusader' spec to Paladins.

A Scarlet Crusader is still a Paladin. Just a Paladin who believes in a different cause than the Silver Hand. You wouldn't need to create a Scarlet Crusader spec. You could use a baseline Paladin spec and just say the Paladin left the alliance and joined the Scarlet Crusade. Scarlet Crusade Paladins aren't a different class than the playable Paladins just because they're "bad guys".

Dumb argument is dumb.

Its no different than the Blood Knights and the Sunwalkers. They're all still Paladins via the game. Using your argument, we should make new classes to accommodate them as well, even though they share design space with the Paladin class.

Like I said, motivations isn't enough. We need different themes and design space.

Then you are confusing Illidan with a playable class. Not our fault you're confusing the motivations of a characterized villain with a potential player class in the Alliance and Horde.

See above.

[Thimagryn]

Like I said, motivations isn't enough. We need different themes and design space.

And the obvious fact that a Demon Hunter is a different class from a Warlock altogether. What I've presented in my argument about motivations is on top of the more obvious fact that Demon Hunters are not Warlocks.

"Ranged Magic Damage Dealer"

It should be obvious which class I'm describing with that alone. I don't even have to mention Demon Pets. The description of Warlocks on their page says "As physically weak spellcasters bereft of heavy armor, cunning warlocks allow their minions to take the brunt of enemy attacks in order to save their own skin."

Demon Hunters are martially trained fighters, first and foremost. The ones described in Warcraft 3 were among the Night Elves' greatest warriors.

[Teriz]

And the obvious fact that a Demon Hunter is a different class from a Warlock altogether. What I've presented in my argument about motivations is on top of the more obvious fact that Demon Hunters are not Warlocks.

Yet the only thing separating the classes ability-wise is the ability to equip a legendary weapon.

That's not an obvious class difference.

[Deleted]

I admire the effort and the hard work. However, your concept proves my point. This class is an enhanced amalgamation of Rogues and Warlocks and would do nothing more than replace them on the rosters of every raid or group available. It doesn't help that the vast majority of those abilities are things Locks and Rogues can do already, just under different names.

How is that class warlock? its not rogue either

[Thimagryn]

Yet the only thing separating the classes ability-wise is the ability to equip a legendary weapon.

That's not an obvious class difference.

We're talking about lore here. It seems you can't substantiate anything to disregard the fact that Demon Hunters and Warlocks are thematically different, so you jump to Mechanics as an excuse?

No, Legendary weapons are not the only thing separating the two ability-wise. Warlocks do not have Mana Burn or Evasion either. Nor do they really have 'Immolation', since Immolation Aura is literally a modifier for Hellfire.

While using Metamorphosis, your Hellfire spell no longer deals damage to you and does not need to be channeled.

They share one ability; Metamorphosis, which is strictly explained as a spell learned by mimicing Illidan.

You are using observational points to draw parallels between Warlocks and Demon Hunters, which will be obvious given they are both sourced to Warcraft 3 and the use Fel magic. Yet all cases where lore, identity and general theme come into play, they share nothing of interest.

Warlocks and Demon Hunters share only one thing - Game Mechanics of Metamorphosis.

All in all, they are two separate and autonomous classes.

[Traveler Voltin]

We're talking about lore here. It seems you can't substantiate anything to disregard the fact that Demon Hunters and Warlocks are thematically different, so you jump to Mechanics as an excuse?

No, Legendary weapons are not the only thing separating the two ability-wise. Warlocks do not have Mana Burn or Evasion either. Nor do they really have 'Immolation', since Immolation Aura is literally a modifier for Hellfire.

They share one ability; Metamorphosis, which is strictly explained as a spell learned by mimicing Illidan.

All in all, they are two separate and autonomous classes.

logic crits for over 9000.
but yeah i agree with you. Teriz is just really stubborn and blind at this point. he is starting to lose this argument.

[Ginantonicus]

...Teriz is just really stubborn and blind at this point.

This thread is full of ppl like that.

[Traveler Voltin]

This thread is full of ppl like that.

true but everyone can be like that

[Thimagryn]

BTW, did you find that link for

Blizzard HAS gone on record say they do not like the idea of introducing a class called a Demon Hunter

It's been a week now.

[Teriz]

We're talking about lore here. It seems you can't substantiate anything to disregard the fact that Demon Hunters and Warlocks are thematically different, so you jump to Mechanics as an excuse?

We've already established how they're thematically the same. Again, a Scarlet Crusader, Blood Knight, and Sunwalker are all still Paladins despite having different lore, and motivations. According to your silly argument, we should make classes for all three variations of the same thing.

No, Legendary weapons are not the only thing separating the two ability-wise. Warlocks do not have Mana Burn or Evasion either. Nor do they really have 'Immolation', since Immolation Aura is literally a modifier for Hellfire.

Immolation burns surrounding enemies. Immolation Aura burns surrounding enemies. Difference?

They share one ability; Metamorphosis, which is strictly explained as a spell learned by mimicing Illidan.

Which would still be the same ability, no matter what the source of it is. See how lore means little?

You are using observational points to draw parallels between Warlocks and Demon Hunters, which will be obvious given they are both sourced to Warcraft 3 and the use Fel magic. Yet all cases where lore, identity and general theme come into play, they share nothing of interest.

Warlocks and Demon Hunters share only one thing - Game Mechanics of Metamorphosis.

They also share the demonic theme, up to the point of even both having demonic minions.

All in all, they are two separate and autonomous classes.

Not even close. A Mage for example wouldn't become a Warrior simply because he could equip a 2H sword. Why? Because they are truly two autonomous classes.

Yet, that's all it would take for a Warlock to mirror a Demon Hunter. Why? Because they share the same theme and abilities.

[Deleted]

What do you guys think of my Demon hunter class concept? I think I achieved what most people think when they think of Demon hunter. But I had little problems with imagination after Glaivemaster spec, but I am kinda satisfied what I achieved.

[Ginantonicus]

true but everyone can be like that

I'd have to say the trouble is ppl want solid evidence that DH will or won't be introduced and until they get it they will just keep chasing there tails.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, did you find that link for


It's been a week now.

Na can't find it. It referred to all class names that had an adjective in front of the name of an existing class eg. Demon Hunter, Arch Druid, Battle Mage ect. They said that being a DEMON hunter implied it was better than a regular hunter.

[Teriz]

BTW, did you find that link for


It's been a week now.

Its common sense that Blizzard wouldn't release a class called a Demon Hunter into the game, since it would cause confusion with the base Hunter class.

Its the same reason you won't see an Arch Druid, Arch Mage, Battle Mage, Blood Mage, or Shadow Hunter class.