A Vanilla Raider's View on the Development of World of Warcraft

[Bigbazz]

I thought TBC class balance was pretty decent. I knew Gladiators who played Warrior, Warlock, Mage, Paladin, Druid and Shaman. And during raids a lot of classes were viable, 5man heroic pugs had a class balance issue due to CC requirements but raids not so much. In endgame raids I saw almost every spec, I played a Fury Warrior, a top tier dps class but a lesser desireable due Arms warriors bringing more raid buffs (but less personal dps), but it balanced itself off for many guilds. Really, you said yourself that you didn't play TBC much and it shows, in endgame raiding and PVP the class balance was really good... In relative terms.

Vanilla was broken by todays standards and for sure the game being new is the single most important factor, but people still play Vanilla private servers. Just as they play TBC and Wrath servers... What will interest you though is that the Cataclysm private servers are more popular than any of the others, followed by WOTLK, and the TBC servers trailing way behind in popularity, maybe even less popular than Vanilla.

The private server popularity tells a different story to what the forum posts show. Cataclysm servers are where people want to play, and despite the fact that they are buggy messes compared to the other expansion servers, they are still more popular.

[RickJamesLich]

Good things since vanilla raiding:

- Much more interesting rotations
- You pretty much no longer have to worry about talents, if you don't want to
- Items are much more abundant, you can get gear from anywhere
- You can do easier versions of the bosses before you get to the harder stuff
- Dual Spec

Bad things about raiding since vanilla:

- Class homogenization, all classes have things like speed boosts, damage reduction, stuns, blah blah blah
- Smart heals that mean you can just click buttons and not put much thought into it
- Talent tree's don't give much room for diversity for many specs
- If you're looking to get to a higher level of raiding, chances are you'll have to go through and beat the easy stuff a bunch of times, making it less interesting when you get to that level of raiding you were originally interested in
- Paired up with random strangers in LFR and often through flex
- Lack of a world, you are teleported to most places you'd want to go to instantly


For me Vanilla was a ton of fun, raiding actually felt like, you know, raids. The game lacked many buttons for players to hit at 60, which was a problem but some what understandable considering how new it was. If they had implemented better rotations and dual spec, I don't think there would be much to really complain about for vanilla.

[DriveKnight]

I just really wish they didn't make the game too casual friendly.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I just really wish they didn't make the game too casual friendly.

Making the game casual friendly = what made it kick off in the first place...WoW at release = hailed as an accessible mmo, and much of what is considered "casual friendly" is in fact just about people actually being able to progress in more areas than raids...

Or maybe someone would like to explain what this "casual friendly" has ruined for us "hardcore" players...?

[flam]

When they made it so you didn't have to leave the major city of your faction, zones became empty. It became extremely boring, sitting in the city, waiting... cuz if you left the city, say, got on a flight path to farm while you waited, most of the time by the time you go to said zone, or started farming for whatever material you wanted, guess what, que pop'd for pvp... then guess what, you enter, you win/lose and your back in the god damn city! (was changed later on but still)

BG's and 'quality of life' changes to the game ruined everything that was fun with the randomness of the world at any given time.

[Noxanonymous]

When they made it so you didn't have to leave the major city of your faction, zones became empty. It became extremely boring, sitting in the city, waiting... cuz if you left the city, say, got on a flight path to farm while you waited, most of the time by the time you go to said zone, or started farming for whatever material you wanted, guess what, que pop'd for pvp... then guess what, you enter, you win/lose and your back in the god damn city! (was changed later on but still)

BG's and 'quality of life' changes to the game ruined everything that was fun with the randomness of the world at any given time.

Nail on head man. It became world of Queuecraft. Because people couldn't be bothered to actually make there way to a dungeon over 3-7 minutes. The BG change was needed pre azeroth flying imo.

And to all the people who enjoy World of Queue craft that were rallying against me on page 1, enjoy your empty zones. I'm sure you do. I'm sure the devs who made those zones worked hard, and I'm sure thats why they say to themselves that that is why the WoW Community can't have nice things. It's why they're not letting us fly on Draenor. Make no mistake, the core of Blizz doesn't like the way players are playing this game anymore either. And they're gonna change it, whether the lazy people like it or not.

[Queen of Hamsters]

When they made it so you didn't have to leave the major city of your faction, zones became empty. It became extremely boring, sitting in the city, waiting... cuz if you left the city, say, got on a flight path to farm while you waited, most of the time by the time you go to said zone, or started farming for whatever material you wanted, guess what, que pop'd for pvp... then guess what, you enter, you win/lose and your back in the god damn city! (was changed later on but still)

BG's and 'quality of life' changes to the game ruined everything that was fun with the randomness of the world at any given time.

What randomness? Other players? Because I saw extremely little of those out in the world pre-LFD in any zones but the ones used for max level progression. You can't mean that the world in itself is random since everything moves in exact patterns at all times...

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Nail on head man. It became world of Queuecraft. Because people couldn't be bothered to actually make there way to a dungeon over 3-7 minutes. The BG change was needed pre azeroth flying imo.

And to all the people who enjoy World of Queue craft that were rallying against me on page 1, enjoy your empty zones. I'm sure you do. I'm sure the devs who made those zones worked hard, and I'm sure thats why they say to themselves that that is why the WoW Community can't have nice things. It's why they're not letting us fly on Draenor. Make no mistake, the core of Blizz doesn't like the way players are playing this game anymore either. And they're gonna change it, whether the lazy people like it or not.

I see more people out in the world now with CRZ than I ever did, even before LFD. Be it in pandaland or the rest of Azeroth.

Also, always funny when people use the word "lazy" or activities that require nothing more of you than sitting on your ass.

[Mormolyce]

Actually, they were BoA.

And still required reputation. Thus making the BoA status of the enchants completely worthless.

Oh Blizz, you silly goose.

No I think they're BoP:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=62343

Don't remember them being BoA at any point.

Being pedantic, but actually it was a reskinned version of Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic. SMB2 never got released outside of Japan because it was apparently too ball-crushingly difficult. But I digress.

And also too similar to SMB1, but yeah. It's still correct to say SMB2 though, since this is an English speaking forum we all understand that we mean the American naming convention.

Nowhere near as bad as the mess they made of Final Fantasy numbering!

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Looks like someone is stuck in the past and cannot accept change.

But... he was more positive about the recent expansions than about vanilla...

When they made it so you didn't have to leave the major city of your faction, zones became empty. It became extremely boring, sitting in the city, waiting... cuz if you left the city, say, got on a flight path to farm while you waited, most of the time by the time you go to said zone, or started farming for whatever material you wanted, guess what, que pop'd for pvp... then guess what, you enter, you win/lose and your back in the god damn city! (was changed later on but still)

BG's and 'quality of life' changes to the game ruined everything that was fun with the randomness of the world at any given time.

Were those zones really teeming with life?

Or was everyone just piled up in Blackrock Mountain, Stormwind and other likely places?

Also, levelling zones probably saw a lot more traffic in the first few years of WoW's life due to so many people not being max level yet.

[Strun]

Vanilla was great and all, because you felt so excited and everything was so new to you, but I wouldn't sacrifice the more user-friendly system today to go back. People are quick to forget how long it took to get gold, to level, really to do anything. I remember back when someone gave me a grey item that vendored for 1g. I was ecstatic (I wasn't the best at getting money... I'm still not ).

[Barnabas]

Vanilla was great and all, because you felt so excited and everything was so new to you, but I wouldn't sacrifice the more user-friendly system today to go back. People are quick to forget how long it took to get gold, to level, really to do anything. I remember back when someone gave me a grey item that vendored for 1g. I was ecstatic (I wasn't the best at getting money... I'm still not ).

Yeah I agree you just don't know how to make money in wow. Gold wasn't that difficult to acquire in Vanilla. I remember farming live strat for orbs to sell or to make crusader enchants to sell.

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So OP prefers single player rpg to vanilla? That's all personal taste and nothing wrong with it. That's honestly the major reason anyone chimes in with how much better the game is now. Sure the balance is much better but you have to consider classes aren't anything like they were before everyone got the same spells on multiple hero types.There a lot more differences than the ones I listed. So you can't really directly compare vanilla and mop. It's not even the same the game anymore to really compare them.

[Noxanonymous]

What randomness? Other players? Because I saw extremely little of those out in the world pre-LFD in any zones but the ones used for max level progression. You can't mean that the world in itself is random since everything moves in exact patterns at all times...

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I see more people out in the world now with CRZ than I ever did, even before LFD. Be it in pandaland or the rest of Azeroth.

Also, always funny when people use the word "lazy" or activities that require nothing more of you than sitting on your ass.

Recently I've been leveling my warlock. Hes 45. You know how many other people I've seen playing since I leveled past 10? Zero. Zip, none. When I leveled my Mage in BC, I had to wait for quest mobs to respawn for 30 seconds because someone just killed it. I saw Alliance running around 2 levels lower than me and I killed them. Only to be hunted by 3-4 people 3 levels higher after. But I put a call in general about allys ganking, and suddenly there would be 10 of us and maybe a level 70 to boot. Come Wrath, leveled a druid. Near the same, very near. Skipped Cata cause I hated the changes and burned myself out on the Alpha and Beta before it hit (word of advice, don't play alpha AND beta, you'll hate yourself later). and then there's now. An empty world. Everyone sits in org buying gear on the AH, and dungeon grinding. What a wonderful world.

Also, yeah, I use the term lazy, because it's sad that people are too lazy to hold both mouse buttons and fly somewhere.

It's not even the same the game anymore to really compare them.

True. Had friends at Blizz when they were working on Cata, they said it really was WoW2. Right now we're headed towards WoW3. Agree 100%

[MetroStratics]

Well thought out. The most important thing everyone needs to understand is that MoP has introduced more content to the video game than essentially all other expansions combined.
Check out my returning player's guide and you will see what I mean. http://wow.stratics.com/guides/mop-r...ose-returning/

A MAJOR portion of all things added in MoP have been completely new, so even if you didn't enjoy some parts of the expansion or don't like the way the "game is headed," you should try out all these new features. Challenge Modes, Proving Grounds, and Pet Battles have really changed the game for me! You might be surprised how much you like the new stuff, especially if the older concepts are drawing thin for you!

[Deleted]

tldr

fun > balance sorry kiddo I dont care that ur spec was broken mine wasn't so I as an individual had WAY more fun than I have now kkthxbb

[Banzhe]

tl;dr gaming is about fun not necessarily balance.

^This, I'd also rather take an imbalanced game where people require others for the majority of content, than one where you only require the skills of a chimp and push a button not needing others!

TLDR; This is also coming from a vanilla player, not that it makes any difference at all.

[catablitz]

Class balance =/= Spec balance
Niche =/= Imbalance

[freedrom]

I remember spending most my time in vanilla trying to farms mats and gold for mongoose pots and fire resist pots. I was a rogue so of course I had LW as a prof. Vanilla was the best time to raid though, logging on hours ahead of time just to kill horde going to raid. Sometimes we wouldn't even raid because there was a guild war. Being able to two shot any mage was also really cool. Ambush, backstab was a killer.

[Noxanonymous]

^This, I'd also rather take an imbalanced game where people require others for the majority of content, than one where you only require the skills of a chimp and push a button not needing others!

TLDR; This is also coming from a vanilla player, not that it makes any difference at all.

YOU are the same type of player that inspired be to raid in BC. /salute

[cFortyfive]

Were those zones really teeming with life?

Admittedly I played on quite big servers but yes every zone was lively. Obviously there were more people in the plague lands than in say...desolace but still. You constantly met other players even at night times. Farming in one of the full zones was actually pretty rough as you often needed to create space by killing off the Alliance occupying hearthglen or tyrs hand.

It became world of Queuecraft. )

Well streamlining and accessibility also don't necessarily always directly translate into more fun.

[Exinium]

^This, I'd also rather take an imbalanced game where people require others for the majority of content, than one where you only require the skills of a chimp and push a button not needing others!

TLDR; This is also coming from a vanilla player, not that it makes any difference at all.

This is absolutely stupid. You do realize that certain compositions simply couldn't progress through content, correct? Didn't have a decurse (only Druids and Mages did at the time) welp, you're going nowhere. No poision dispell? You're fucked. Etc. Raid composition was less about individual skill and responsibility and more about making sure you covered all your bases with classes.

But yeah-- it's real fun to play one of those gimp classes.

Not to mention individual skill was significantly less important in 40 man raiding. There was less emphasis on good dps/hps, less boss mechanics to work with, etc. The game is, undoubtedly, significantly harder now. How's that heroic progress going for you, by the way?

Admittedly I played on quite big servers but yes every zone was lively. Obviously there were more people in the plague lands than in say...desolace but still. You constantly met other players even at night times. Farming in one of the full zones was actually pretty rough as you often needed to create space by killing off the Alliance occupying hearthglen or tyrs hand.

We have zones like that already. Timeless Isle can be ridiculously fierce competition for equally balanced PvP realms. In fact, the area we as players occupy at any given time is more concentrated than it was in Vanilla, there's just larger faction imbalances on the realms we play on.

tldr

fun > balance sorry kiddo I dont care that ur spec was broken mine wasn't so I as an individual had WAY more fun than I have now kkthxbb

When balance and fun are tied for a majority of classes, it's less fun. Once again, you're taking for granted what we have now. Frost Mage is nothing like Shadow Priest, is nothing like Fury Warrior, is nothing like Rogue. None of those have anything in common DPS wise, so the argument that there's a degree of homogenization there is just dumb. I mean-- Frost Mage, Fire Mage, and Arcane Mage has very different and unique playstyles for all three specs. Balance and Feral couldn't be more different. Ret paladin is unique in it's windowlicking status. Warlock burning embers are incredibly unique, and demonology is significantly different.

Classes are all the same though. The fact you're not having fun now is because you're playing it as a videogame and not as an adventure.

[Hubbl3]

^This, I'd also rather take an imbalanced game where people require others for the majority of content, than one where you only require the skills of a chimp and push a button not needing others!

TLDR; This is also coming from a vanilla player, not that it makes any difference at all.

Because fuck other people who don't randomly oneshot things, right? I want S3/4 druids back. Arena was totally great back then. =)