Sucks to be Shaman? Warlords of Draenor = NO HIGHLIGHTS.

[Deleted]

Windwalk Totem --> Best in PvP, but even then most of the time other two will outweight
T45 --> No need to say more
EotE --> Terrible for Resto, terrible for PvP, below average for PvE DPS specs
Conductivity --> Bad for any spec
Rushing Streams --> So underwhelming for Enhancement & Elemental, you are forced to AG not even close to being a choice
Elemental Blast --> I would be really offended to be offered EB as a choice if I was Resto

And this only goes from a perspective of a DPS shaman, many people can find other talents lacking in a different way.
Almost half of our talents don't deliever what new talent system promises. They are not fine and they don't have usage.

Windwalk and Earthgrab have decent uses. Situational but decent. Like lots of other classes talents.
Echo of the Elements, Ancestral Swiftness and Elemental Mastery are actually incredibly close in terms of throughput for elemental. Can't comment on Enhance.

Conductivity and Rushing Streams are bad because AG is crazy. AG is getting nerfed.
Elemental Blast is a great talent. If it does something as resto then that'll be great news.

I'm also fairly sure every class suffers from the occasional crap talent. This is not unique to shaman. Lynx Rush, anyone?

Also, EotE sums up how seriously Blizzard take us.
EotE is the same with Cataclysm's legendary effect and Elemental's mastery.

And it was fucking hilarious to see your spell duplicate like 6 times.
Oh, and Echo of the Elements is being changed for 6.0. Did you forget that bit?

[swissedog]

Paladins (mentioned for holy) have three different and all viable speed increases as well, 45% for 3 seconds of every 6, 70% for 8 seconds every 45, and 15% flat plus a ramp up to 40% (useful for run back).

Now that I think about it, there is an easy fix, give windwalk totem the bonus of say, 30% speed increase (doesn't stack with spirit walk, but does with GW) for the caster. It actually fits the model, gives you an option where speed and freedom of movement matter, and is on a fairly long cooldown. There's no danger of it unbalancing pvp given the long cooldown and low boost when not stacked with ghost wolf. Then a minor glyph that transforms you to wolf when you drop any totem from the windwalk tier.

A lot of the talents are fairly annoying across the tiers. Most have at least two viable options, but some really only have one.

[Deleted]

Apologies for wall of text, I'm going to start snipping quotes now as these posts are getting a bit nuts

Except that druids have their very own type of weaponry: agi staves and polearms. They cannot be compared with enh in that matter because of that. You have to compare enh to melee specs it can actually be compared to, namely dw ones. And rogues can use the same weapons we can, plus swords. Meanwhile, we are left out at every sword drop, and have no compensation of any kind. Mons can use everything we can, plus swords, as well. They can also utilize 2handers. That's modern class design.
The imbues would proc not of each other, but of the weapon hit. Since dw weapons hit at the same time anyway, there wouldn't be any difference safe FT and WF hitting for a little more through extra strikes (SS/LL). Other than that, imbue damage would stay the same. Not having two enchants is by itself enough to keep dw superior though. You'd also have to increase the msw proc chance on 2h. And I dont get your point about removing dual wieldable items :-?

1 - I can see then giving us Swords, it was heavily discussed in the past. I think the reason they decided against it was because it would be an unfair advantage to Resto/Elemental compared to the other caster specs though

2 - They would still need to make the numbers for WF and FT completely different than they are on one handers because otherwise the burst would be OP as hell.

3 - Apologies, I meant remove all 2hders, not remove all duel wield items.

Spamming everything is as noobish as a rogue popping all cooldowns at the same time. To my knowledge it hasn't made rogues overpowered. Someone who does it fails, because he'll be out of utility after this.

But other classes don't have cooldowns that are mutually exclusive. We would lose the gameplay elements of 'Do I pop my Mana Tide now? I'm really low mana, but then I'll be screwed if I need to use my HTT soon' or 'Dang my teammate is feared but I've got this guy bearing down on me and I need this Earthbind' ect ect. It removes choices and interesting decisions, ultimately making the class easier to play. Which, as I've said, is something so many people complain about as is.

Not an argument for it, but more tone against it. Grounding has a low cooldown and because of that will clash with Storm Elemental Totem multiple times during its duration. I see no justification in having to hold of off grounding for one minute or be forced into Totemic Presistance to avoid it, and having to pass on the other talents just for that. Or Having to hold of my entire Earth Totem kit for Earth Elemental or Stone Bulwark. And why would resto have to choose between a dot and an aoe heal? Does a druid have those lock each other out as well? Sure as hell not. I cant say it often enough: using everything at the same time is foolish anyway, but I dont want to clip my cooldowns for other ones. No one has to do it, safe us. It would be a buff to SIT and CPT? NO shit. CPT is among the crappiest skills ingame, you can hardly change anything on it without buffing it. It's among the things you'd want to counter above most others? Lol, on other classes, countering abilities just like that isn't even possible for the most part. Boo-fucking-hoo. Slap every classes' utility on weak shit-sticks and wait for the rage storm, because I guarantee you, it's coming. And no one will be among them going "it's adding skill in using them, excellent!" Except trolls maybe, or shamans enjoying the irony.

1 - Could you please stop with the arbitrary adjectives. You weaken your argument by calling everything 'shit-sticks' or the like, whilst someone is clearly arguing against that fact and thus it is not a given that they are bad. Also randomly trying to insult the people who disagree with you doesn't help either.

2 - I think the extra choices make for interesting mechanics. Many classes have to make choices that are similar. Does a druid want to start healing and lose their passive defensive abilities from their form and the cooldowns that form has, does a Holy Priest want to change Mantra right now or should they wait, does a Shadow Priest want to leave Shadowform now (though I'm OOD on Shadow Priests, I think this isn't a thing anymore, not sure though)?

Enhance uses its damage cooldowns for damage, not mobility. Ascendence will never be used for the mobility part unless they remove the damage increase, or nerf it as badly as they did with Feral Spirits. Saving Ascendence for mobility phases is not an option.

This is just not true. If using Ascendance during a period of long, extended movement would lead to a bigger DPS gain than using it when you are able to stand still and do full DPS then that is when you would use it. It is an ability you use to maximise your DPS, so if the mobility factors of it do that, then you would use it for them.

I dont wish I had more glyph slots. I wish I had more lee-way in using them. Shamanistic Rage is an attractive choice. Purge is. Grounding...well, it's maybe a little weak but okay, glyph of Purging, glyph of Flame Shock, all okay, all interesting "choices" we dont really have because pidgeon-holed into 2/3. The stuff I am complaining about is not okay.

As I said, it is not okay for Glyphs to be mandatory, and that should be addressed, I was just saying that having many choices you wish you could have isn't a bad thing

Except Hex is treated as a cc. Silences dont have cast times, and dont break on damage. Silences work fine against druids as well. As much as Hex is not a cc, it is not a silence. It is neither. It is unique in being worse than both. No matter what you compare it against, it falls short, just like totems.

CC stands for crowd control. An ability that causes you to exert some sort of control over other units. Hex does that. You prevent the target from casting spells or auto attacking. A Silence is a form of CC. A Stun is a form of CC. Polymorph is a form of CC. Hex is a form of CC.

Except ele is the most immobile caster outside of mobile LB period. In cata, ele was a dead spec, and it was precisely this change that brought life back into arena, literally. And enh is still supposed to use this immobile skill, hard casted even. They confirmed it themselves; they like enh hard casting, and they feel those hard casts need to not be usable while moving. Hence enh is the least mobile melee, ele the least mobile caster in WoD, and that doesn't even include other short coming as the lack of potent gap closers/creaters.

1 - Elemental was certainly not a dead spec in Cata, because that was when I played it at a hardcore raider level and was regularly getting into World Top 100. It was doing very well in the middle of the pack, exactly where every spec should be. In Arena we were weaker, but Lightning Bolt on the move isn't our issue in Arena. It's our inability to escape melees who would just interrupt us anyway and our reliance on RNG.

2 - If you take Unleash Elements or PE rather than Elemental Blast literally every single spell you have in your single target rotation can be cast on the move. Take our Lightning Bolt from that now they are nerfing every ranged classes mobility and that is still the majority of your damage on the move. Lava Burst is a proc yes, so not always up, but we also have Spiritwalker's Grace for any extended period of movement. We were one of the classes most impacted by movement back in Cata, but that was before both Lava Surge and Unleashed Lightning existed. We get to keep one of them still.

No it doesn't. Shocks are weak, UE no longer deals any damage in WoD (not that it did much prior), LB cant be used anymore due to no longer being usable while moving (again, not that it did much damage) and using msw casts requires melee uptime, which you do not have on range. Searing Totem is immobile and can be outranged easily. Enh sucks at range damage, and is just as dependant on uptime as every other melee. Having those few ranged spells is nothing but an excuse for blizz to keep us bad, so it has no plus side really.

Shocks aren't a huge portion of our damage, but are by no means weak. They are still something for us to use. UE does deal damage, just not directly. Saying otherwise is just false. Melee classes should get penalized for not being in melee range, and at least you have the option of hard casting which no other melee does.

Searing Totem, Flametongue Weapon, Fire Elemental Totem, Ghost Wolf, Unleash Elements, Lightning Shield...
And I dont see advantages of requiring melee uptime for ranged stuff, with ranged stuff being apparently what justifies low mobility/uptime in the beginning.

The advantage being you also get to use it from range? If they made it so that Enhance was not able to cast Lightning Bolt at all without max MSW stacks, and changed it's name to Lightning Punch, would that make it better?

Enh didn't use LB prior to msw. And shocks were only used because enh didn't have anything else to push aside from Stormstrike. No justification whatsoever. Enh still uses Magma Totem, because of the same lazyness. And no, only enhance was famous for it. Only enhance. Period. Sure, resto/ele imbued their weapons as well, just because they were able to, but they hardly did threatening damage. No one used anything besides windfury all the way throughout vanilla (not sure when ele started using ft, but I think it was in wotlk, when EarthLiving was added for resto).

1 - Enhance did use LB, but only from range (so rarely), and Shocks were still used and yes they were only used because they were there, so Blizzard made them more attractive. Why is that a bad thing?

2 - I've said before I dislike Searing Totem and Magma Totem

3 - No, Shaman are famous for it period. The idea that Shaman are based on in general revolves around the idea of the Shaman using their totems to inspire their fellow Warriors and charging into battle with Fire and Lightning surrounding their giant Hammers (ala Doomhammer + Thrall). The class mechanics meant that the choice of which Imbue to use was of more interest to Enhance, but saying its bad class design that Elemental and Resto get to use one too just is wrong.

Except that it does exactly the latter, with shocks, msw casts and fire totems. True, Stormstrike and LL are now more of a damage percentage, but Frost DKs are about as "enhancing their physical strikes with elemental power" as enh is. Enhance's identitiy was a wf-monster in pvp and a buff monster for other melees in pve, that's it. It is neither now. It hardly it's own ability kit and shares more abilities with ele than it uses for itself. Loss of identity right there.

And safe for LL (which took multiple x-packs to be considered well designed) they existed from the get go. Lack of new, integral stuff.

You are still yet to persuade me why old is equivalent to bad. As for Death Knights, Ice powers were an integral part of what the Lich King is, but is has nothing to do with the Elements (people more educated in lore than me correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe Ner'zhul had anything to do with the Elements as he was a Warlock?).

Enhance still suffers from not being able to use swords though. And having a 10y history of being the loser doesn't suddenly disappear either. It means our status has always been like that. A big part about 8) is that they were pretty much the biggest changes to the class/spec. Internally, few has changed. Because shamans dont get improvements when they need it, but rather when general QoL improvements/redesigns are made, the class lags behind always.

As I said earlier, I can see them getting to use Swords, and I'm fairly sure I remember it being discussed before when they gave axes to rogues, that they decided against it because of the advantage it would warrant Resto and Elemental.

Other classes have cooldowns on some of their abilities as well. That doesn't make it a recource. And it's not a "different issue" wether or not having no recource is good, because it IS the issue. It's not a really engaging game play waiting 1.5s all the time. In fact, if cds are our recource, how come our gcd is longer than many other melee's? Blizz is making some improvements on that matter, yes. I'm trying to be optimistic and think it'll be enough. I fear though that some actually though out system would be better though. It doesn't have to include all our abilities. Something like a big change on msw, or the old Searing Flames...blizz totally half-assed giving us an actual mechanic to work with, and just slacked, like always. It took them two x-packs to realize how pointless Searing Flames was, just to give you an idea how shaman design works.

Cooldowns are a resource though. Mana is a resource, you just don't revolve around it like a healer does. Cooldowns are a resource just most classes don't revolve around it like Enhancement does.

Shaman design:
1) Think something up on the spot, dont consider drawbacks or wether it'll be useful. If it is bad, dont care
2) Call the other classes' dev teams and get the blessing of the other class communities (Whaaaaat? Shamans getting snare/root shift? Noooooooeeeees => axed)
3) Implemented
4) Denounce and/or ignore complaints
5) Continue to defend crap for multiple years/x-packs
6) Give in at some point and simply remove it...or not

Wouldn't be surprised if CPT got the axe next x-pack (the one after WoD).

I repeat, please stop with statements like these. Unless you have some contact within Blizzard that is not public, you have no basis for saying that is the shaman design process. All you are doing is making things up that skew the issue and draw away from actual valid discussion.

[Razhiel]

Razhiel: reading with understanding, mate. You just told me all 3 talents L90 give dps increase, while i specifically mentioned in the post prior that I am showing you the RESTO perspective. So yes, true at all. True very much. Go and ask resto shamans what they think about L90.

My bad. Didn't get you`re talking about Resto, in which case i agree

That's all i wish for. Go over the class carefully and fix the crucial areas. Other classes either got it with/during MoP or are getting now. It's about time we recieved that treatment. No, it doesn't necessarily mean a revolution in every spec.

/nod

[Zxzas]

Perfectly happy with enhancement as it is. The only thing that really needs reworking is the AOE, but we're a solid spec alright.

Ya, Earthquake is getting a mild buff from what I got from it because people don't use it enough. I drop magma, earthquake + Totemic Projection my magma + Chain lightning, peaks me at 1.1 mil on large groups but once earthquake dissipates I drop to 800k

- - - Updated - - -

Ooops totally misread that. LUL

[Kuniku]

I've not been paying as much attention as I used to regarding all the WoD changes etc, but I've recently decided that i'm most likely going to main a shaman again in WoD - and I'm quite excited about the multistrike stat, combined with elementals mastery, I don't even care if its not optimal I'm going to stack both and cast lightning like a fucking machine gun! =D

(unless I've missed a change to elemental's mastery?)

[Omanley]

it would be an unfair advantage to Resto/Elemental compared to the other caster specs though

Make it spec specific => fixed. No one ever mentioned giving it to resto/ele.

2 - They would still need to make the numbers for WF and FT

FT scales with weapon speed, so..no. As for WF, obviously it'll be more bursty in pvp. Looking at how a slow 2h has it's own disadvantages, I see no problem though. WF isn't dealing all that much damage atm, 2h isn't gonna change much on that, pvp burst-wise.

But other classes don't have cooldowns that are mutually exclusive.

And why do other not have that? Because totems changed in what they provide, and have to change in how they function, as a result. A rogue has to think about when to use his vanish, evasion and what have you as well, and doesn't axe other cooldowns. The restriction was put into place to limit the amount of buffs we could provide at the same time. Buffs are auras now though.

It removes choices and interesting decisions, ultimately making the class easier to play. Which, as I've said, is something so many people complain about as is.

It doesn't remove choices, it adds them. Keeping a restriction limits, not adds to choices. There is no interesting decision in "I'm feared, do I want to give up my absorb for breaking it now, or not?". It's simply not fair to be forced to swallow that pill.

1 - Could you please stop with the arbitrary adjectives. You weaken your argument by calling everything 'shit-sticks' or the like, whilst someone is clearly arguing against that fact and thus it is not a given that they are bad. Also randomly trying to insult the people who disagree with you doesn't help either.

I'm sorry about that. I just tend to get edgy when someone tries to make an obvious set of disadvantages look attractive. It's like a car seeler trying to swindle you into buying a crash derby car. Totems restrictive through and through. There is no advantage for an ability to be a totem. Being limited in terms of elements doesn't add anything. It takes away. It takes aways my absorb when I break a fear, it takes away my ultimate talent pet when I ground a spell, It takes away my aoe heal for a random hot, it takes away my aoe snare for my Primal Earth Elemental. There is nothing good in that. Pretending otherwise is hard to take for anything other than trolling, hence my tone.

2 - I think the extra choices make for interesting mechanics.

NO extra choices. Less choices. No interesting mechanic. Restrictions, restrictions, restrictions.

Many classes have to make choices that are similar.

Not even close.

Does a druid want to start healing and lose their passive defensive abilities from their form and the cooldowns that form has

You mean going out of bear form? Druids can spam a couple of hots and switch back no trouble, as often as they want.
What cooldown? You mean global cooldown? Forms have no cooldowns.

, does a Holy Priest want to change Mantra right now or should they wait, does a Shadow Priest want to leave Shadowform now (though I'm OOD on Shadow Priests, I think this isn't a thing anymore, not sure though)?

Having to wait for stuff until it is needed and having to cancel stuff because other stuff is removing it are two entirely different things. Is a priests absorb shield removed when he fears someone? Because that is totem logic. Break fear, lose absorb.

This is just not true. If using Ascendance during a period of long, extended movement would lead to a bigger DPS gain than using it when you are able to stand still and do full DPS then that is when you would use it. It is an ability you use to maximise your DPS, so if the mobility factors of it do that, then you would use it for them.

Except such situations do not exist. Furthermore Ascendence is stacked with other cooldowns for enhance's single pve strenght right now: burst. Using Asc for mobility axes a big part of the damage it can bring, since you dont stack it with other cooldowns. But hey, maybe some of the others can prove me wrong on this. Ascendence is enhance's strongest skill atm. Using it for mobility is just a huge waste.

As I said, it is not okay for Glyphs to be mandatory, and that should be addressed, I was just saying that having many choices you wish you could have isn't a bad thing

Except that's not the case either. Half of our glyphs should be baseline, so there's not many choices. There's one choice for the slot left, yes that one slot has many choices, naturally. Talking about hypothethical stuff is pointless.

CC stands for crowd control. An ability that causes you to exert some sort of control over other units. Hex does that. You prevent the target from casting spells or auto attacking. A Silence is a form of CC. A Stun is a form of CC. Polymorph is a form of CC. Hex is a form of CC.

In that mind interrupts are crowd controls, fake castings as well as Grounding Totem or basically doing anything at all, because the other will react, altering his playstyle, somehow controlling him into doing something he otherwhise wouldn't. Real crowd control is supposed to actually take control. Snares, roots, silences and interrupts aren't what one would consider cc for a reason. I cant make that CPT happen because of this pointless drawback on Hex. Your argueing of semanthic of wether or not you can call it whatever doesn't change anything on that. Hex is weak, to weak to support even weaker CPT. Shaman CC sucks, easy as that.

1 - Elemental was certainly not a dead spec in Cata, because that was when I played it at a hardcore raider level and was regularly getting into World Top 100.

So it wasn't dead in arena because you played it as a raider, good point. Obviously being a turret is a concern for pve, not pvp.

In Arena we were weaker, but Lightning Bolt on the move isn't our issue in Arena. It's our inability to escape melees who would just interrupt us anyway and our reliance on RNG.

The issue is being able to get casts off. Being mobile means getting distance between you and the (melee)enemy, allowing the unbothered casting. LB on the move significantly helped with that. For a turret to have chance in arena, you do not just have to have good mobility, you also requires lots of cc. Frost had both, so even though it consisted mainly of Frostbolt, it was still able to do well. Ele has neither mobility nor good cc. LB on the move wasn't a fix for weak ele pvp, but a strong band aid. That is now gone, with no compensation.

2 - If you take Unleash Elements or PE rather than Elemental Blast...We get to keep one of them still.

PVP, MAN, PVP! Try putting pressure on enemies just with Lava Surge procs and Spirit Walker's once every couple of minutes.

Shocks aren't a huge portion of our damage, but are by no means weak. They are still something for us to use. UE does deal damage, just not directly. Saying otherwise is just false. Melee classes should get penalized for not being in melee range, and at least you have the option of hard casting which no other melee does.

Lol? Shocks are combined like 10% of our damage. I'd call that weak. UE enhances melee damage, which does shit when you're at range and kited. Having an +x damage buff does not benefit you if not in range. What scenario are you talking about hardcasting? A boss flying around in the air or something? LB on the move is no option on the move, so while moving from location A to B during raiding, you dont benefit form LB at all come WoD. And in pvp it's no different. Stop chasing that caster to get an LB off? Good one.

The advantage being you also get to use it from range? If they made it so that Enhance was not able to cast Lightning Bolt at all without max MSW stacks, and changed it's name to Lightning Punch, would that make it better?

You dont get to use it on range, because you're in melee, evident in that you obtained the stacks...You're in melee, collecting stacks, spending stacks, rinse repeat. If you're at range, you'll have no stacks, get no stacks because not in melee to collect them, and cant do anything but hard cast, simple. There is no big range advantage on enhance. Just taking shuriken talent as rogue probably enables them to more ranged damage than enh.

1 - Enhance did use LB, but only from range (so rarely), and Shocks were still used and yes they were only used because they were there, so Blizzard made them more attractive. Why is that a bad thing?

Using an ability close to never justifies strapping it forcefully on something that doesn't fit? No it doesn't. I can barely tolerate shocks design-wise, because they at least dont make for awkward game play, and were used since vanilla on a regular basis, mostly for utility (interrupts and snares), but in the end, they were elemental abilities, meant for the usage of a caster dps. The only synergy shocks ever gave us is the coming WoD perk improved Lava Lash. Shocks were never made for us. And blizz, instead of providing us with a notable melee toolkit, something akin to what dks got, we were stuffed with more elemental left-overs. There is nothing satisfying in using those tools, and it removes diversity inbetween specs.

How would ferals feel if they suddenly had to start using moon fire, wrath and star fire? Both specs have their own ability kits, enh/ele dont. Ele has it's own stuff, enhance borrows.

2 - I've said before I dislike Searing Totem and Magma Totem

I guess you'd like the same treatment other totems have? 1min burst cds and as easily taken care of? Awesome, now people can snipe my burst even better. I dont like either skills also, but a big part of what I dislike are the drawbacks of totems, which you seem to enjoy.

3 - No, Shaman are famous for it period. The idea that Shaman are based on in general revolves around the idea of the Shaman using their totems to inspire their fellow Warriors and charging into battle with Fire and Lightning surrounding their giant Hammers (ala Doomhammer + Thrall). The class mechanics meant that the choice of which Imbue to use was of more interest to Enhance, but saying its bad class design that Elemental and Resto get to use one too just is wrong.

All four imbues were originally melee procs only, and ele/resto did not melee, simple as that. Saying ele/resto during vanilla were famous for imbues is ignorance, nothing else. Maybe non-shamans were to noobish to differentiate between shaman specs, but the one insta-owning others was enhance, always. The only imbue used was windfury, fact. The only one making any real use of imbues was enh, fact. imbues were a selling point of enh, which was distributed, fact (even with wf being the only used). And while every shaman provided support, enhance excelled there with improved wf totem, imp stoneskin, imp grace of air, imp flametongue and so on. So yeah, enh was the pinacle of support, you put them into melee groups to get the crazy raid dps, not ele/resto.

You are still yet to persuade me why old is equivalent to bad. As for Death Knights, Ice powers were an integral part of what the Lich King is, but is has nothing to do with the Elements (people more educated in lore than me correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe Ner'zhul had anything to do with the Elements as he was a Warlock?).

I dont understand you first sentence, since the point was that enh was suffering from an identity crisis, kinda. Enh has turned from someone who enhances himself and others to an elemental/enh hybrid. Enh has been a totemic warrior theme-wise, and totems are the worst shamans have to offer and never been expanded on. To make up for that, they slapped us with elemental's theme instead.

And Nerzhul was a shaman. Gul'dan was a warlock (and prio to that, shaman also). And you missed my point on that also. Enh has SS (physical) and LL (fire). Frost has Obliterate (physical) and Frost Strike (frost). So both specs are very similar, and enhance's theme is nothing enhancing really. It's just the way they fight. Neither an shaman nor a DK really enhances Lava Lash or Frost Strike. Enh enhances his weapons via imbues, that's it, and it lost in meaning.

As I said earlier, I can see them getting to use Swords, and I'm fairly sure I remember it being discussed before when they gave axes to rogues, that they decided against it because of the advantage it would warrant Resto and Elemental.

No, that was what players suspected. It really was just lore. Shittiest reason ever. And if you dont get the idea as a def to make it enh only, when it was originally enh only to wear 2h axes/maces, then you're a failure as a def. It was just an excuse.

Cooldowns are a resource though. Mana is a resource, you just don't revolve around it like a healer does. Cooldowns are a resource just most classes don't revolve around it like Enhancement does.

Cooldowns are a recource avaiable to most/everyone. As such you can argue breathing, drinking and eating as a recource, because everyone does it. It is as shallow, pointless and nitpicky a reasoning as saying that silence is a cc, and comparing it to stuff like polymorph, traps and cyclone.

I repeat, please stop with statements like these. Unless you have some contact within Blizzard that is not public, you have no basis for saying that is the shaman design process. All you are doing is making things up that skew the issue and draw away from actual valid discussion.

Unless I hibernated, hallucinated or was stuck in the matrix the last 8 years following dev blues and playing up to firelands, that's what they did. We've seen dozen of examples, Hex, CPT, Sentry, LB on move gone and so forth.

Now it's not like they screwed up every spell in total, but whenever shamans got some major new thing (cc), (utility cooldowns), mobility, etc., there always had to be drawbacks. Shamans could likely have gotten rootshifting or immunity for Ghost Wolf through talents, but I have no doubt that in not just the first, but also the second case, druids were on the trees about us grabbing what is supposed to be ours. Look how they denounce shaman feedback on the totem talent, class mobility or LB on the move. Their responses clearly show what they think of us. Look how long bad design survives in our class, Searing Flames should give you an idea. Look how many things were simply removed after many years of being weak/pointless. Rockbiter, Frostbrand, Sentry, Windwall etc. etc....

All things we all know to be the case. Calling it out as what it is, I'd not call that jumping to conclusions.

But in the end, blizz sees all these mmo-c shaman posts, just like twitter or official forum posts as just this:
Loudness from a minority of people

[shammypie]

Both talents, Priests is a 4 second increase with a 15 second cooldown, Paladins does not remove movement impairing effects, both vulerable to Silence just as Ghost Wolf is.

The only tradeoff is a spell with no duration vs. a spell with a much shorter duration than it's cooldown. Which is one of those "Similar but different enough to not be the same" situations.

Try again.

- - - Updated - - -



Stampeding Roar is a raid cooldown.
Angelic Feather is a talent, silencable, and has a much shorter duration than it's cooldown.
Mages, same as above. Silencable, shorter duration than it's cooldown.
Warlocks hurt themselves to keep that speed going.

Try again. Again.

mages have blink and warlocks have portals. Also you can't use an argument of "silenceable" since no class can cast spells while silenced and once activated the buff persists through silence. Furthermore druids have a movement tier talent with one of them beng displacer beast.

Furthermore none of the above abilities silence yourself while activated. GW is just hexing yourself but with a slight run speed buff with optional glyph to keep you from being slowed (minus some slows that still work because they lower your movement speed).

GW is not a sprint, its much weaker than that. It's #1 use is to run back after a raid wipe if the boss is really far away/ running a flag. If you think you need the extra movement speed for a long period of time you should try mounting up instead. Being able to rush a long distance away really quickly and unimpeded is where it really matters.

[Mithgroth]

Windwalk and Earthgrab have decent uses. Situational but decent. Like lots of other classes talents.
Echo of the Elements, Ancestral Swiftness and Elemental Mastery are actually incredibly close in terms of throughput for elemental. Can't comment on Enhance

I'm talking about Windwalk, not Earthgrab.
It's only appealing for Elementals, and in many situations Earthgrab is superior. Resto will hardly prefer it since it blocks Spirit Link, and Enhancement already lacks gap-closers, they are forced to go Frozen Power.

There's situational, and there is too situational. Windwalk is too situational to be a talent, being a choice over other two far superior talents.

Conductivity and Rushing Streams are bad because AG is crazy. AG is getting nerfed.
Elemental Blast is a great talent. If it does something as resto then that'll be great news.

Nerf AG to the ground, it still doesn't change the fact that Rushing Streams and Conductivity are bad for both DPS specs. Both in theory and numbers, bad talent is bad. Same goes for Elemental Blast, and yes we are already defending the idea "make it do something for resto too", making it a bad talent which goes against Blizzard's new talent design philosophy.

I'm also fairly sure every class suffers from the occasional crap talent. This is not unique to shaman. Lynx Rush, anyone?

Who cares about them, I want my talents to match Blizzard's standarts.
Even if we cared about them, as I gave the Warlock example, we are at the bottom of this with half of our talents being crap for the majority of our spec/enviroment (Ele PvE - Ele PvP, Enh PvE...).

And it was fucking hilarious to see your spell duplicate like 6 times.
Oh, and Echo of the Elements is being changed for 6.0. Did you forget that bit?

No it is not hilarious to have hundreds of the same passive over and over. It's pathetic how Blizzard lacks creativity for Shaman.
And no, I didn't forget that bit, actually it only took them an expension to change EotE and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be grateful for it.

I don't see your point on shamans but it's definantly not ponies and rainbows as you claim it is. I believe many of us are pretty worried about how Blizzard is approaching to our beloved class. We have problems and they are not being addressed. I'm even seeing posts about retired shamans who rolled into monks and telling others to reroll to feel the difference of a modern designed class and devs actually paying attention. That makes us even more sad, but we are all running out of options.

[Deleted]

Priests get their feather/bubble increase, both with short speed increase durations and both with longer cooldowns. Why? Because priests CAN'T CAST WHILE MOVING. Shaman get Lightning Bolt (Literally our main spell!) AND Spiritwalkers Grace to cast while moving.

You do realise that Lightning Bolt while moving will be removed in WoD?

Celeston stated that Elemental damage will be buffed accordingly. So it's not like they are removing LB on the move without compensation. If this will hold up in actual raids, I don't know. I sure hope so.

[Teriz]

Ferals also lose 90% of their DPS OUTSIDE of Cat form, meaning they have to be in the form at all times while DPSing. On the contrary, Shamans have their DPS and healing impacted significantly by going into Ghost Wolf.

Why would a feral Druid ever DPS out of cat form? Isn't the point of feral to be in cat form the entire time?

I do agree that Feral movement speed is out of control, but that's not what this discussion is about. If you'd like to make a thread suggesting Ferals have lower movement speed, be my guest, and I'd be glad to agree with you. This discussion is about what's wrong with Shamans, and Feral movement speed being overpowered does not make Shaman movement speed any worse.

Actually it does. And since Blizzard isn't addressing Cat form's movement, but actually making it even better in WoD, it shows that they don't view it as OP. Meanwhile, Shaman can't even get a movement tier.

- - - Updated - - -

A significant portion of cast-while-moving spells are being removed in WoD as well. Even previous instant healing spells are all being given cast times.

Pretty much all cast while moving spells with the exception of Spiritwalker's Grace have been removed with WoD, so it's only fair Lightning Bolt gets the same treatment. I would be surprised if we didn't see any sort of movement nerf in the process.

You do understand that despite that nerf to all casters, each class is either getting significant changes, or other forms of compensation to make up for the loss of mobility right? Priests and Warlocks have fears. Warlocks have DoTs and pets. Mages have awesome CC and shields. Druids have a revamped Eclipse system, cat and bear form/CC immunity, etc. What do you think Elemental Shaman is getting for compensation?

A damage boost isn't going to cut it.

- - - Updated - - -

Was more just a point of reference towards their philosophy that it really doesn't matter. I don't really understand why you find those two talents to be a problem? You can't place two of *any* totem at the same time, so the talents just conform to the same rules as every other totem. That doesn't mean the talents are bad, because they both have great uses. Perhaps there is reasoning behind them being this way. Perhaps they don't want you to use Stone Bulwark at the same time as your Earth Elemental, or Earthgrab at the same time as Tremor. The totem system could actually allow the spec to be more difficult by making things more restrictive in this way, but it isn't, which tells me that they're rather particular about how much they want to restrict you, which means it was obviously taken into consideration.

Just as a point of reference; Priests can use PW: Shield, Fear Ward, Void tendrils, and Mind Bender at the same time without restriction.

Warlocks can use Sacrificial Pit, Shadow Fury, Infernal, Unending Resolve, Blood Fear, and Twilight Ward at the same time without restriction.

Monks can use Guard/ToK/Life Cocoon, Nimble Brew, Ring of Peace/Leg Sweep, and Xuen at the same time without restriction.

Why not Shaman?

Its great fun to have to spec into another talent just to make four other talents not conflict with each other....

[Deleted]

I don't think farming lower level content is a valid concern for balancing max level abilities.
Enh AoE is intended to have a ramp-up, that being said it is entirely competitive, and I rather enjoy it since MoP. Garrosh 1st phase is quite fun as Enh.

Don't know in which guild you are, but our adds die within 5 seconds. I can top @ 1.6 mios dps, where hunters and warriors peak @ 2 mios and warlocks @ 3 mios.

And that's the best situation we've had.

Our AOE is really pretty much the worst ingame right now. Look at how we perform at multi target fights:

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_F...10100000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Galak...10100000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gener...10100000000000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spoil...10100000000000

Enhancers have really solid single target dps (still 20% behind warlocks though, a ranged high mobility class with multi dotting and big aoe range).

We have solid single target dps, but we pretty much fail in 80% of all aoe situations in boss fights.

[Deleted]

Why not Shaman?

Because it just, doesn't, matter ¬_¬ Seriously, it does not. Stop moaning about it, because that's all you're doing.

And honestly, you hate this class, just go and play a different one.

[Blithe]

Ferals also lose 90% of their DPS OUTSIDE of Cat form, meaning they have to be in the form at all times while DPSing. On the contrary, Shamans have their DPS and healing impacted significantly by going into Ghost Wolf.

I do agree that Feral movement speed is out of control, but that's not what this discussion is about. If you'd like to make a thread suggesting Ferals have lower movement speed, be my guest, and I'd be glad to agree with you. This discussion is about what's wrong with Shamans, and Feral movement speed being overpowered does not make Shaman movement speed any worse. We're still quite mobile as healers, (Riptide, drop Healing Rain/Healing Stream/Healing Tide, Ancestral Swiftness for an instant cast spell, Spiritwalker's Grace), the most mobile DPS having our main rotation ability as an instant cast plus Spiritwalker's grace making even our outside-main-rotation cast spells able to be used on the move, and we're second only to Rogues when it comes to movement as a melee DPS. Our movement speed is not a problem.

Are you serious right now? Do you even play this class? Our movement speed is not a problem? SERIOUSLY?! We are literally next to Death Knights when it comes to movement speed, even being overshadowed by Retribution Paladin's. We have no mobility tier, which every other class pretty much has, the only sprint available to our class is forced into Enhancement and Ghost Wolf is extremely lackluster in its current form, and don't even try denying it.

You call yourself a Shaman...

[Teriz]

Because it just, doesn't, matter ¬_¬ Seriously, it does not.

So it doesn't matter that Shaman are artificially gimped because of pointless mechanics?

Stop moaning about it, because that's all you're doing.

Maybe you should have read the thread title before deciding to contribute?

And honestly, you hate this class, just go and play a different one.

Pointing out problems and wanting the class to be brought up to par with other classes= Hating the class.
Ignoring class problems and sticking head in the dirt= Loving the class.

Gotcha.

[Deleted]

So it doesn't matter that Shaman are artificially gimped because of pointless mechanics?



Maybe you should have read the thread title before deciding to contribute?



Pointing out problems and wanting the class to be brought up to par with other classes= Hating the class.
Ignoring class problems and sticking head in the dirt= Loving the class.

Gotcha.

They ain't problems just because you say they are, champ. I've already told you why they're not.

[Teriz]

They ain't problems just because you say they are, champ. I've already told you why they're not.

Me not being able to summon my Earth or Fire Elemental totem for the benefits of Primal Elementalist because I have Searing Totem and SBT out is a problem. Me not being able to help my raid out of a snare with Windwalk totem because I don't want to lose Storm Elemental is a problem. Me having to decide to use Grounding Totem to stop that mage hitting me with a spell instead of using Capacitor Totem to stop a group of melee heading my way is a problem.

The fact that I have to alleviate this problem with a talent is a problem. What if I need Totemic projection or Call of Elements instead?

No other class has insane restrictions on their cooldowns. The purpose behind those restrictions were eliminated 2 years ago.

[Deleted]

Me not being able to summon my Earth or Fire Elemental totem for the benefits of Primal Elementalist because I have Searing Totem and SBT out is a problem. Me not being able to help my raid out of a snare with Windwalk totem because I don't want to lose Storm Elemental is a problem. Me having to decide to use Grounding Totem to stop that mage hitting me with a spell instead of using Capacitor Totem to stop a group of melee heading my way is a problem.

The fact that I have to alleviate this problem with a talent is a problem. What if I need Totemic projection or Call of Elements instead?

No other class has insane restrictions on their cooldowns. The purpose behind those restrictions were eliminated 2 years ago.

They aren't problems. They're decisions. Design restrictions. You can help with the next snare. Etc.

[Attackrabbit]

And honestly, you hate this class, just go and play a different one.

I'm sure once Tinkers appear he will, until then you're stuck with him so for ever.......

[Teriz]

They aren't problems. They're decisions. Design restrictions. You can help with the next snare. Etc.

Again, its a problem because no other class faces such restrictions. Druids for example don't lose Force of Nature or Ursol's Vortex because they casted Stampeding Roar.