Rejoice, rejoice, Blizz heard our pleas...no snapshotting for Rogues =)

[fierydemise]

I don't see a common case where CT is better than Eviscerate for singe target even with big buffs. Eviscerate doesn't care if buffs are running out either, as all the damage is up front. The only case I can see is where a mob is going to get some massive damage taken buff where you need to burst him down fast, (Shredder on Siegecrafter) but I don't even know if it updates with those kinds of debuffs. I've been meaning to check if hemo drops in damage after the belt fails on Siegecrafter, but I always forget to do it.

Yeah you're right, I was still thinking in the forward projecting mindset from hemo.

[Coldkil]

Funny thing I just noticed: The whole multistrike mechanic is useless in solo play because Hemo doesn't trigger it. Good job.

Really?

I mean, F****** REALLY?

Well, either in solo mobs have so little health the main damaging mechaninc of the spec isn't useful, or we can just forget an entire spec for basically a third of the entire game (if not more for many players).

[Feali]

Really?

I mean, F****** REALLY?

Well, either in solo mobs have so little health the main damaging mechaninc of the spec isn't useful, or we can just forget an entire spec for basically a third of the entire game (if not more for many players).

And I keep tweeting them about it but they. just. don't. care.

[Ninepenny]

Really?

I mean, F****** REALLY?

I think we should create "Haste will fix it"-type meme.

[Feali]

Playing more and more Sub on beta... I can't even express how much I want 360° Backstab.

[Sesshou]

It's not bad design, it's a trade-off. Warriors, for example, don't have to worry about being behind a target to use Mortal Strike but they do have to worry about Mortal Strike missing and losing the rage generated from it. Rogues don't when they use Backstab, they are guaranteed combo points. Now it's up to you to decide whether or not you think it's worth it, and obviously many players here don't, but I think it is. Especially combined with the other tools available that allow us to get behind a target. And even if you can't get behind your target for whatever reason, you still have Hemorrhage.

You just took a giant dump on your own case. The enlarged backstab angle means it will be usable from angles where players can dodge, but you can still get screwed from being able to use it when you want to.

Whats the positive trade off now huh?

Hmm, BS is iconic for subtlety? This is news to me, cause I distinctly remember 2.80 hemo dominating vanilla and TBC. Still trying (very hard) to understand how BS supposedly fits subtlety gameplay (wut? if anything, it actually harms it) and subtlety kit "so well".

Exactly. Only wrath babies and god damn retarded developers think backstab is iconic for sub.

[Oggiva]

You just took a giant dump on your own case. The enlarged backstab angle means it will be usable from angles where players can dodge, but you can still get screwed from being able to use it when you want to.

Whats the positive trade off now huh?

The backstab currently on beta is in a weird place where it has both the downsides. Not guaranteed to hit the back, and not the ability to hit from the front.

I have to say I'm suprised by how few can see the benefit of only being able to hit from the rear. It's just as beneficial in pve as it is in pvp. I'd rather have my attack not be used than dodged as long as I'm not energy capped and I am in a position where I can get behind the boss again. (Most of the time.) That said I do want backstab to be useable from all directions. This 270 degrees thing just feels wrong. You can't attack from the front, and you do not get the benefit of having an attack that can't hit the front.

[Deleted]

Exactly. Only wrath babies and god damn retarded developers think backstab is iconic for sub.

I'd say only Wrath babies want the positional requirement of backstab removed. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's iconic for sub. Backstab being a strike from behind is iconic for the rogue class, and I suspect that's what was Celestalon's point all along.

I'm not saying removing the requirement wouldn't be a quality of life improvement, or even a DPS increase, or even in line with the dumbing down of every single class in WoW. I'm saying I wouldn't want my class to be dumbed down to the level the other classes are going where even nutless and blind monkeys can pilot them.

If the requirement was ever removed, the ability should be renamed stab instead of backstab. Then we can all just reminisce the good old days when Rogues actually had to go behind their opponents to blow them up.

[Ninepenny]

I'd say only Wrath babies want the positional requirement of backstab removed. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's iconic for sub. Backstab being a strike from behind is iconic for the rogue class, and I suspect that's what was Celestalon's point all along.

You suspected wrong then. Rfeann was specificly asking about sub players. Your "iconic for the rogue class" doesn't even make sense. When a player plays a rogue, he plays it in a certain spec and specs favor certain CP-builders over another ones. And if we're talking about BS, that spec was combat (till AQ40 and in TBC combat-daggers was buried in the ground with that sucky ability - unfortunately, not for the eternity).

So, bottom line: an ability that was used for a half of Vanilla by combat spec. Does that qualify for an iconic rogue ability for you?

I'm not saying removing the requirement wouldn't be a quality of life improvement, or even a DPS increase, or even in line with the dumbing down of every single class in WoW. I'm saying I wouldn't want my class to be dumbed down to the level the other classes are going where even nutless and blind monkeys can pilot them.

Guess in any BS discussion the elitist response is bound to happen.

Melees already have to be behind the target for an optimal dps...

If anything, you should have started *****ing about "dumbing down" at the start of TBC, when combat daggers did less damage than swords and Blizz did nothing to rectify that.

[ymirsson]

If it was that iconic, who do only sub rogues have Backstab in their spellbook.

[Feali]

Just did Ragewing in the new UBRS. If you don't stand at the exact opposite part of the bridge to what the tank stands in you can't Backstab. Iconic indeed. Fuck you.

I'm also getting Ultraxion flashbacks with Death from Above.

[Oggiva]

Your "iconic for the rogue class" doesn't even make sense. When a player plays a rogue, he plays it in a certain spec and specs favor certain CP-builders over another ones.

Backstab have been party of every rogue spec at some point. I think it's fair game to call Backstab an iconic rogue ability. I also believe most rogues switch around with specs relatively frequently compared to many other classes.

[Feali]

Backstab have been party of every rogue spec at some point. I think it's fair game to call Backstab an iconic rogue ability. I also believe most rogues switch around with specs relatively frequently compared to many other classes.

So was Disarm Trap. But it got removed completely.
So was Shadow Step for Subtlety. Now it's a talent.
So was Deadly Throw. Now it's a talent.
So was Cheat Death. Now it's a talent.
Ghostly Strike
Improved Kidney Shot / Prey on the Weak.

I could go on but you get my point.

[Sesshou]

The backstab currently on beta is in a weird place where it has both the downsides. Not guaranteed to hit the back, and not the ability to hit from the front.

I have to say I'm suprised by how few can see the benefit of only being able to hit from the rear. It's just as beneficial in pve as it is in pvp. I'd rather have my attack not be used than dodged as long as I'm not energy capped and I am in a position where I can get behind the boss again. (Most of the time.) That said I do want backstab to be useable from all directions. This 270 degrees thing just feels wrong. You can't attack from the front, and you do not get the benefit of having an attack that can't hit the front.

Which is why I said what I did. Knowing that it isn't going to get parried (or dodged in pvp) does have value even though personally I think the value in that is less than the value in the freedom to use regardless of positioning. Ambush was a different story, and at least that is gone. With this new version you pretty much lost the only benefit of a behind only attack and are still screwed from a positional requirement.

I'd say only Wrath babies want the positional requirement of backstab removed. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's iconic for sub. Backstab being a strike from behind is iconic for the rogue class, and I suspect that's what was Celestalon's point all along.

I'm not saying removing the requirement wouldn't be a quality of life improvement, or even a DPS increase, or even in line with the dumbing down of every single class in WoW. I'm saying I wouldn't want my class to be dumbed down to the level the other classes are going where even nutless and blind monkeys can pilot them.

If the requirement was ever removed, the ability should be renamed stab instead of backstab. Then we can all just reminisce the good old days when Rogues actually had to go behind their opponents to blow them up.

It does matter about being iconic for sub because that was what I was replying to in addition to what people have claimed on this forum in previous threads. In old school wow (meaning vanilla/bc), backstab was for assassination and combat and it is literally the icon for combat. I liked hemo sub and I want it back. That isn't dumbing it down, it is removing an ability that was forced into the spec because they wanted to keep it and forced it out of the other two specs. Assassination is the spec that should be handicapped by positional crap and daggers only, but for some reason they have gradually phased the positional crap onto sub.

Good ol days when rogues had to go behind to blow some one up? You a wrath baby? Super slow weapon (omg servo arm) with sub was better back in vanilla. Though I will concede that getting a good dagger was a lot easier, it still isn't true that you needed to be behind to blow some one up. Combat maces and then harp and then hemo shadowstep were the kings rogue arena specs in BC.

[Ninepenny]

Backstab have been party of every rogue spec at some point. I think it's fair game to call Backstab an iconic rogue ability. I also believe most rogues switch around with specs relatively frequently compared to many other classes.

An ability jumping from spec to spec for limited periods of time and being practically nonexistent for 1 expansion (TBC) is hardly an iconic rogue ability. Sinister Strike, stealth, Slice and Dice, Kidney Shot - those are. BS is at best a bastard child ability which got shoved to a spec it never belonged to in the first place.

[Deleted]

(...) Assassination is the spec that should be handicapped by positional crap and daggers only, but for some reason they have gradually phased the positional crap onto sub.(...)

I fully agree with you ! Daggers and positionning requirements should be part of Assassination only, even if I like this spec and if this means a much higher difficulty to play it. If Sub is now about bleeds, BS has nothing to do in the landscape.
Combat should be a tanking spec... They provided a DPS version of Prot warrior spec, why could not they provide a tanking version of Combat to increase both the rogue community size and the number of tanks for raiding ?

[Oggiva]

An ability jumping from spec to spec for limited periods of time and being practically nonexistent for 1 expansion (TBC) is hardly an iconic rogue ability. Sinister Strike, stealth, Slice and Dice, Kidney Shot - those are. BS is at best a bastard child ability which got shoved to a spec it never belonged to in the first place.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't love it. It's not Backstabs fault. I think Backstab fits Subtlety well myself, but that's subjective.

I don't think Sinister Strike is a better example. It's only been used by one spec after all.

- - - Updated - - -

List of abilities.

I could go on but you get my point.

No, I don't. What is your point?

[Ryme]

"It's iconic to attack from behind" - it will still be beneficial to attack from behind
"It's iconic" - no it's not, if it wasn't for combat logs, no one would even know you were doing it.
"Fit's the toolkit" - what? What does this even mean? What is sub's toolkit and why does a 270° ability fit it so well?

[Linneth]

"Fit's the toolkit" - what? What does this even mean? What is sub's toolkit and why does a 270° ability fit it so well?

It means that they're done with Rogue changes and we will ship as it is.

[Artorius]

Dispatch is literally 360º backstab, if the name backstab is so goddamn problematic, rename it.