[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Taven]

In essence I think nobody here is disputing that EmpS lags behind absolutely perfect Seraphim usage on most measurables, but that point is moot when most progress kill logs don't have anywhere near perfect Seraphim usage in the first place. Look at your own Kromog rank 1 - roughly 40% Seraphim uptime (far from the ideal 50% sim value - not that it necessarily indicates anything other than sometimes, as is often the case, having to hold Seraphim for some specific mechanic) and an effective TMI that's more or less spot-on the same as my own despite the fact that I used EmpS/DP and sat in SoR the entire fight.

In an ideal scenario with players who never make mistakes and never have to hold Seraphim for anything, Seraphim is ahead. Under real-world circumstances, subjected to the vagaries of actual boss fights, EmpS is at least capable of equivalent performance to Seraphim, and at a significantly reduced cost in terms of DPS compared to Holy Shield. That ALONE makes it a talent worth at least giving consideration. We can theorycraft as much as we like on what talent SHOULD come out ahead, but we would also be completely remiss to not look at real-world data, and real-world data indicates EmpS is better than many posters in this thread are giving it credit for even if you sit in SoR.

I think this basically sums up the debate. /thread

[Kanadei]

I assume Treckie and Sloot know what they're doing and aren't "overlooking" SoI. If I had tremendous, world-class healers and didn't need to run SoI for survival, I wouldn't use it either.

I mean, for all his bluster, I think Lazel also knows what he is doing.

And Astur is so quietly confident that there is frankly no way he doesn't know what he is doing.

[celinamuna]

And i'm just a plebian casual now

[Kanadei]

And i'm just a plebian casual now

I'm sure you, and many other posters in this thread which I didn't mention, are also pretty amazing.

[Taven]

So if we are running EmpS with a significant up-time on SotR would unglyphing Divine Protection help counter balance some of the loss of Magic damage reduction and bring it closer in line with HS in that regard? Obviously it can't be right there due to the CD but it was a random shower thought.

[trystero]

I mean, for all his bluster, I think Lazel also knows what he is doing.

And Astur is so quietly confident that there is frankly no way he doesn't know what he is doing.

There's nothing about my argument which suggests that they don't know what they're doing.

It is presumptuous to assume that two of the top paladin tanks in the world are overlooking SoI. I mean it's possible that they are -- I just think it's more likely that they don't use it because they don't need it. How would you even know that they're overlooking its value? What's that even based on?

[Jackielope]

Yes, unglyphing DivProt would be useful to help negate magic damage if SotR uptime is making all physical damage less of an issue.

[Kanadei]

There's nothing about my argument which suggests that they don't know what they're doing.

It is presumptuous to assume that two of the top paladin tanks in the world are overlooking SoI. I mean it's possible that they are -- I just think it's more likely that they don't use it because they don't need it. How would you even know that they're overlooking its value? What's that even based on?

Yeah sorry, when I re-read what you were saying it was a bit clearer - I kind of selectively read the line "I assume they know what they are doing" and it came off as a bit combative (as if implying the people discussing things here don't know what they were doing) but I can see how that wasn't what you intended.

Your logic makes sense, in my experience bleeding edge guilds often ignore mechanics or abilities completely due to the incredible quality of their healers and the safety net that ensues.

[Deleted]

There's nothing about my argument which suggests that they don't know what they're doing.

It is presumptuous to assume that two of the top paladin tanks in the world are overlooking SoI. I mean it's possible that they are -- I just think it's more likely that they don't use it because they don't need it. How would you even know that they're overlooking its value? What's that even based on?

I've watched both of them raid (admittedly farm so you can't analyse too much) but they state their reasoning for using SoR over SoI several times per night and so I understand what they are prioritising. Sloot in particular says that SoI has almost no value for when you will die in a raid, which is true if you die within 2 seconds, but that isn't the case in almost all scenrios this tier, provided you can predict the incoming damage.

He's looking at SoI with a bad mindset and is getting a skewed opinion of the spell based upon that.

[vokey]

How does the tank survivability section in warcraftlogs work? Looking to improve my survivability a bit since I'm middle of the pack in hc thogar.

[trystero]

How does the tank survivability section in warcraftlogs work? Looking to improve my survivability a bit since I'm middle of the pack in hc thogar.

Just ignore it. I've done fights and parsed 99th where I didn't feel very sturdy. And other kills where I never felt threatened at all and scored like 50th percentile.

If you want to improve your durability, look elsewhere in your logs and think of the times in an encounter where you felt particularly threatened and consider how you'll address it.

[Kanadei]

Just ignore it. I've done fights and parsed 99th where I didn't feel very sturdy. And other kills where I never felt threatened at all and scored like 50th percentile.

If you want to improve your durability, look elsewhere in your logs and think of the times in an encounter where you felt particularly threatened and consider how you'll address it.

Confirmed. I know my co-tank (Monk) is far sturdier than I in most situations and yet we constantly have a huge disparity in the tank ranks, always leapfrogging each other with one heaps high and one heaps low then next week the reverse.

Experimental apparently means "very, very experimental".

[Deleted]

You can't quantify tanking easily at all. You'll have to do a detailed analysis of your buff uptimes and damage taken plots as well as ability casts from bosses if you want to find anything useful. Most of the time you know when you are using your CDs / Active Mitigation as a tank and have pre-planned almost everything. So in theory, you can do everything you can with log analysis, without an actual log as long as you know the timings on abilities and damage intake.

[cujoe]

I am a bit puzzled by the discussion about EmpS. Looking at the simulations, ES_DP_SoR and Sera_HA_SoI have comparable DPS, while ES has 4k worse TMI. So from these numbers alone, I cannot understand how one can state that EmpS is not a competetive option to Sera_HA when damage and survivability are nearly the same?

Also with EmpS you have the option to go into SoI in times of high damage intake and only keep the haste buff from SoR up, which gives you a survivability increase over Sera_HA (TMI of ES_DP 100k vs Sera_HA 103k) at the cost of a good chunk of DPS. Furthermore, you could go middle ground, stay in SoR and only keep Uther's insight up.

That, together with the fact that you are more flexible with HoPo and DProt usage with EmpS compared to the rather rigid rotation of Sera_HA, makes EmpS in my eyes a very solid competitor to Sera_HA. The latter, however, can be quite amazing when all heavy damage periods in a fight fall together with Sera and Ha usage.

I also have a question regarding the sims: Do they use different BiS sets and enchants depending on specc? Would it be possible to realistically model WoG usage on heavy spikes? Let's say you drop below 50 or 40% and you prioritize WoG over SotR?

[LuisKA]

Dropping by to ask a question for those of you more experienced in mythic fights.

Ever since this tier started I feel sometimes I get dropped to zero hp in 3~4 seconds with sera or DP up in white hits. Our healing team is typically x2 paladin, druid, monk, disc, being both beacons the main source of my healing. However in those 3-4 seconds of raw slaps to the face I seem to take more damage than a beacon healing can handle. I try to never blame the healings on my deaths since I really don't know how well they are able to top a health bar in a ~3 sec reaction window but its starting to get annoying being blamed for these situations.

Question is... are these 3-4 sec window deaths with only beacon healing and triage reduction (sera,DP) cds up normal? Am I missing something?

Logs just in case they are of any usefulness. There may be a death here and there... https://www.warcraftlogs.com/guilds/230

[Kortiah]

Beacon healing is there so that you have SOME heals when you're not the main target to be healed. It's still a 50% efficiency compared to a direct heal from your HPals. If they are relying on keeping you alive (especially during Mythic progression) with Beacons and 2 HoTs from a druid they need to change something (and to be honest they should already have if they see you dieing).

Just looking at that death, picked randomly. You were at 40% 10sec before your death. And barely got back up to 40% after getting close to almost dieing @ 3:10. From 3:10 to 3:17 you're barely healed, from a renew and a lightwell hot... I already am raging at my healers when I die in a 3-4sec window, but a 10sec window where you're not healed at all is kind of pathetic from them...

To be honest there also seems to be mistake on CD usages (DProt last used 70sec ago, you didn't WoG/LoH/Tonic yourself to get you backup...), but the main issue on that death was your healers slacking. But use that last remark to see if you didn't make the same mistakes on another death.

I also have a question regarding the sims: Do they use different BiS sets and enchants depending on specc? Would it be possible to realistically model WoG usage on heavy spikes? Let's say you drop below 50 or 40% and you prioritize WoG over SotR?

I also am wondering about this. One VERY good thing about playing EmpS is the Bastion stacks going up much faster than with Sera (outside of HA use). Being able to use a 5 stacks WoG every 20sec is very valuable compared to a Sera build where it sometimes even force you to SotR sooner than wanted to keep the buff alive.


@Lazel : isn't this a bad example? Iirc you're supposed to play Holy Shield on furnace, so not really a point in the EmpS vs. Sera debate. Although it could be a point in favor of EmpS, since as we already stated, playing with EmpS allows you to get higher Mastery through gems/enchants, making switching to HS for some fights easier.

[cujoe]

Some of you people don't seem to understand that sotr alone is NOT enough to survive on mythic.

Are you saying that ES_DP (with seal twisting) is not able to survive on mythic? So the simmed TMI, which is slightly better than that of Sera_HA, is not a good metric for survivability?

[Kortiah]

Are you saying that ES_DP (with seal twisting) is not able to survive on mythic? So the simmed TMI, which is slightly better than that of Sera_HA, is not a good metric for survivability?

To be honest, everyone here wants to play EmpS IF AND ONLY IF it doesn't require sweal twisting. Meaning close to similar TMIs between EmpS_DP_SOR and Sera_HA. That's still not the case on sims (for now, don't know about the extent of the sims, keep in mind these are just SIMULATIONS and can't possibly take everything into account). BUT people have been testing EmpS_SOR and have been quite pleased with the result, again because sims aren't taking everything into account.

Playing ES_DP would be probably better than anything else IF seals were off the GCD. Making the rotation lose less GCDs and being less of a pain in the ass to execute (2 GCDs lost every 20sec).

[cujoe]

To be honest, everyone here wants to play EmpS IF AND ONLY IF it doesn't require sweal twisting.

I understand that. I was just curious whether Lazel's rather general statement meant that no EmpS specc, which relies mostly on SotR mitigation, would be able to survive on mythic besides the lower simmed TMI.

Meaning close to similar TMIs between EmpS_DP_SOR and Sera_HA. That's still not the case on sims

No? From the values on page 177, they are pretty close in my eyes (103k Sera_HA vs. 107k ES_DP_SoR). Also Sera_HA suffers more from imperfect execution. And as you said, sims don't account for everything, especially the more flexible use of HoPo with EmpS reagarding WoG emergency healing.

[Theck]

I also have a question regarding the sims: Do they use different BiS sets and enchants depending on specc? Would it be possible to realistically model WoG usage on heavy spikes? Let's say you drop below 50 or 40% and you prioritize WoG over SotR?

Not at the moment. They're using the same gear set, but if I recall correctly that gear set is only barely hitting 50% haste, so there isn't that much wasted. If I get some time today I'll try a gear set with EmpS that shifts enough enchants into mastery to keep it below the cap just to see if there are any significant changes.

Regarding WoG usage, I've never found a reliable way to implement that in the sim. In the past, it's always been a TMI decrease to use e.g. a simple conditional that uses WoG when you're <40% max health or one that checks for incoming damage exceeding some percentage of health. That may have changed, though, so it's something I can investigate.