Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[Methusaleth]

With the recent responses to Brewmasters and Arms warriors on the front page of MMO champ is Legion in danger of being WoD 2.0? It seems to me that stripping and pruning away class defining skills and talents and not filling the void with compelling game play is leaving many with a bitter taste in their mouth.

In short, is Blizz banking too much on legendary set bonuses, class set bonuses, and trinkets to offer dynamic game play? Or is it fundamentally better to build classes and specs that are dynamic and interesting before the introduction of set bonuses and trinkets? Thoughts?

I think you're fucking stupid because it's still in alpha. They haven't even gone into beta yet. Plus, a lot of things could or may be subject to change.

[Jessicka]

I think you're fucking stupid because it's still in alpha. They haven't even gone into beta yet. Plus, a lot of things could or may be subject to change.

4 months until launch and we're not even in Beta yet? Just pointing that out.

[Letdown]

I am going to have to disagree because there is reasons beyond damage to use an ability...as there is synergy between abilities, feedback, priority, rotation, interaction with stat values. In short, no tuning is not going to fix the mess that Brewmasters are in. You are literally simply there and not playing your character.

I understand that but things have to be tuned enough for those synergies to matter. Let me use rogue again (in a very general sense) to try to better convey my point.

Backstab costs 60 energy and 1 shots everything.

Super backstab costs 40 energy and causes your backstab to deal double damage for the next 6s.

You'd never use Super backstab because Backstab already 1 shots everything -- you'd be better off waiting for an energy regen tic just to use another regular backstab.

Let's do a different example -- backstab does 300% weap damage + 70% AP and costs 60 energy.

Super backstab costs 40 energy and causes backstab to deal double damage for the next 3s.

You would never use super backstab because you can get (if I did that math right, English major so don't crucify me if I didn't, just try to understand the point I was trying to make) more backstabs/min (and higher DPS) just using backstab because of how energy regen works.

Clearly there's a synergy that's trying to exist between super backstab and backstab in this example, but with the wrong tuning, your best bet for a 3s burst window still remains just spamming backstab.

Do you get what I am trying to say? I know there's a way to do that math so my point works, lol.

[RoxyBlue]

It is a bit concerning for some classes and specs, unless something major changes in 4 months, there are going to be a lot of unhappy arms wars BrM monks and BM hunters.

[Mafic]

I understand that but things have to be tuned enough for those synergies to matter. Let me use rogue again (in a very general sense) to try to better convey my point.

Backstab costs 60 energy and 1 shots everything.

Super backstab costs 40 energy and causes your backstab to deal double damage for the next 6s.

You'd never use Super backstab because Backstab already 1 shots everything -- you'd be better off waiting for an energy regen tic just to use another regular backstab.

Let's do a different example -- backstab does 300% weap damage + 70% AP and costs 60 energy.

Super backstab costs 40 energy and causes backstab to deal double damage for the next 3s.

You would never use super backstab because you can get (if I did that math right, English major so don't crucify me if I didn't, just try to understand the point I was trying to make) more backstabs/min (and higher DPS) just using backstab because of how energy regen works.

Clearly there's a synergy that's trying to exist between super backstab and backstab in this example, but with the wrong tuning, your best bet for a 3s burst window still remains just spamming backstab.

Do you get what I am trying to say? I know there's a way to do that math so my point works, lol.

Your analogy fails because damage tuning didn't fix Legion Sub and simply can't.

Legion Sub still has poor AoE.

Still has energy issues outside of shadow dance.

Backstab's positional requirement still a punishment.

Shadow Dance cool down turned into a weaker version via charges

Shadow Blades cool down devalued because SnD was removed from the spec. The spec has lots of CP generation, thus Shadow Blades is a poor major CD for Legion Sub.

You have no control over Shadow Nova or Akari's Soul.

SoD = Savage Roar 2.0/Hunger For Blood

No, just no.

[Rilas13]

Im not concerned because they still have probably 2ish months until prepatch. And still unafraid to make large spec changes in every build. Also a lot of the Brewmaster criticisms were removed after celestion gave his dissertation on why people were worried about the spec. And the build yesterday gave them QoL changes so its not really an issue now. At least not a dramatic one that tuning cane hone in on. I don't follow Arms but I did see the complaints in the last few weeks.

Without going too much into it, it seems to me they have taken great strides to focus on class mechanics and gameplay. In the past 6 months I would say it has been the major and most ongoing focus of the Alpha. And they have been very unafraid to make changes when required. Soooo don't don't worry about something that isn't an issue?

P.S. Alpha/beta namesake doesn't matter, this topic just needs to die. We have been talking about it since blizzcon. They could have a week of "beta" in August just for giggles. Who cares what the name is? They have started tuning, they have every major feature promised at blizzcon actually in the Alpha(some minor miracle there), but someone will always complain about something.

[Bryntrollian]

is Legion in danger of being WoD 2.0?
?

Of course it is, why wouldnt it be ?

[Mafic]

Im not concerned because they still have probably 2ish months until prepatch. And still unafraid to make large spec changes in every build. Also a lot of the Brewmaster criticisms were removed after celestion gave his dissertation on why people were worried about the spec. And the build yesterday gave them QoL changes so its not really an issue now. At least not a dramatic one that tuning cane hone in on. I don't follow Arms but I did see the complaints in the last few weeks.

Without going too much into it, it seems to me they have taken great strides to focus on class mechanics and gameplay. In the past 6 months I would say it has been the major and most ongoing focus of the Alpha. And they have been very unafraid to make changes when required. Soooo don't don't worry about something that isn't an issue?

Class mechanics have not been a major focus of alpha. It has been testing raids.

This is why most specs on the alpha are in an unfinished state with three months to go till launch. Blizz is the one that decided to rework all the specs and prune them. They own this and they were the ones trying to re-invent the wheel again.

[Thetruth1400]

Legion still has 4 months until release. Assuming the classes are done is stupid. If you want to make changes to your classes from their current state, give Blizzard feedback on the Alpha forums rather that MMO-Champion, while some developers may read this, it's not the most constructive use of your time.

Not everyone is in the alpha, the beta hasn't launched (Which is laughable considering every one to date has lasted 6+ months. Rush job anyone?), and even then I'm pretty sure people don't just automatically get in or have access to those forums.

What people do have is access to the information from those sites thanks to sites like this one, and this is the only way they can have their voices known about the issue at hand.

All that aside, from everything I've seen (or really not seen) Legion is shaping up to be WoD 2.0. Frankly the game is a shell of its one time greatness, and they either need to make the changes to revert this game back to what made that great or just let it die.

[Kallisto]

Not everyone is in the alpha, the beta hasn't launched (Which is laughable considering every one to date has lasted 6+ months. Rush job anyone?), and even then I'm pretty sure people don't just automatically get in or have access to those forums.

What people do have is access to the information from those sites thanks to sites like this one, and this is the only way they can have their voices known about the issue at hand.

All that aside, from everything I've seen (or really not seen) Legion is shaping up to be WoD 2.0. Frankly the game is a shell of its one time greatness, and they either need to make the changes to revert this game back to what made that great or just let it die.

Egh seriously people still getting worked up on Alpha/Beta phrase.

I mean come on. Go look at first builds of MoP beta or WoD and tell yourself that somehow development is behind that. For all intents and purposes we're as far along as MoP beta was 3-4 months before its release. As for shaping up to be WoD 2.0 yeah no. Even Alpha/Beta now has more going for it than release WoD.

[Rekz]

With the recent responses to Brewmasters and Arms warriors on the front page of MMO champ is Legion in danger of being WoD 2.0? It seems to me that stripping and pruning away class defining skills and talents and not filling the void with compelling game play is leaving many with a bitter taste in their mouth.

In short, is Blizz banking too much on legendary set bonuses, class set bonuses, and trinkets to offer dynamic game play? Or is it fundamentally better to build classes and specs that are dynamic and interesting before the introduction of set bonuses and trinkets? Thoughts?

So this post is a "OMG THEY NERFED ARMS IN LEGION" post, I get it. It may very well be that Arms is going to be nerfed this xpac. I would just be ready for that and enjoy fury or some of the other classes.

[Vynestra]

3 months before any xpac most classes -- if not all were in an un-finished state. This thread is actually useless and discusses a point relevant to all other xpacs, meaning it's not really relevant.

[Kuntantee]

For all fools thinking things may change, this is from Blizzard:

General – Tuning has started! A very rough pass has been made over all classes to get them into the same ballpark. Note that we have not yet finished a first tuning pass on artifacts yet; some specs are still significantly under- or over-powered with full artifacts. At this point, class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet.

You fanboys may find it shocking, but they think class mechanics are firm at this point. People are giving feedback, nothing is changing. Assassination Rogue and Arms Warrior feedback is being ignored completely.


The Legion is doomed with their half-assed class overhauls.

[Rekz]

For all fools thinking things may change, this is from Blizzard:



You fanboys may find it shocking, but they think class mechanics are firm at this point. People are giving feedback, nothing is changing. Assassination Rogue and Arms Warrior feedback is being ignored completely.


The Legion is doomed with their half-assed class overhauls.

Every xpac, certain class specs are placed on the chopping block for nerfs. Arms appears to be one of the nerfed specs for legion from everything I've gathered so far. We know it's going to happen as it happens every expansion. It's not that they are not listening to feedback, it's that they have a strategy going forward that they are adhering to.

Nerfs happen every xpac and this one is no different.

[Kuntantee]

Every xpac, certain class specs are placed on the chopping block for nerfs. Arms appears to be one of the nerfed specs for legion from everything I've gathered so far. We know it's going to happen as it happens every expansion. It's not that they are not listening to feedback, it's that they have a strategy going forward that they are adhering to.

Nerfs happen every xpac and this one is no different.

No one is talking about how powerful/weak a certain spec is. Not sure how you jumped to nerfs... Heck, the class tuning just started today. People are talking about class mechanics which aren't fun for certain specs. Assassination may be one of the best DPS out there this expansion, doesn't change the fact that they butchered the spec. It's even slower now.

[Nevcairiel]

Assassination may be one of the best DPS out there this expansion, doesn't change the fact that they butchered the spec. It's even slower now.

Disagreeing about the vision for a spec doesn't mean its "butchered". Maybe you just want something out of the spec that it doesn't have, and is not supposed to (anymore).
Not every class/spec is for everyone, some like faster gameplay with every GCD full of action, some like slower play, and the various classes and specs try to deliver a bit of diversity in that regard.

People cried about butchered classes for WoD, from all the outcry from some specs back then you would think noone would be left playing those anymore.
So an expansion later, incidentally many of the same specs are complaining *again*. Maybe those communities are just overly resistant to change, or something

[Kuntantee]

Disagreeing about the vision for a spec doesn't mean its "butchered". Maybe you just want something out of the spec that it doesn't have, and is not supposed to (anymore).
Not every class/spec is for everyone, some like faster gameplay with every GCD full of action, some like slower play, and the various classes and specs try to deliver a bit of diversity in that regard.

People cried about butchered classes for WoD, from all the outcry from some specs back then you would think noone would be left playing those anymore.
So an expansion later, incidentally many of the same specs are complaining *again*. Maybe those communities are just overly resistant to change, or something

What community? There isn't a single positive feedback in Assassination thread in Alpha forums. There isn't a single positive feedback in this forum as well. What community are you talking about? It's not about resisting to change, it's constructive feedback that Blizzard is completely ignoring. It's gonna blow in their ass.

And for fuck's sake go check Assassination before blindly defending Blizzard. Legion Assa and WoD Assa are completely same, except Legion Assa is slower, lacks several utilities and that's it. There isn't a difference in vision, there hasn't been significant changes to differ it anyway. People said they don't want a slower version of an already-slow spec.

[Nevcairiel]

What community? There isn't a single positive feedback in Assassination thread in Alpha forums. There isn't a single positive feedback in this forum as well. What community are you talking about?

And those people complaining arent part of the rogue community? I mean, I get that rogues like to think of themself as loners and all, but hey.

[gcsmith]

In pure dps specs, it doesn't matter so much that 1 spec is less fun, since there are 2 other specs you can turn to for the same role.

[Kuntantee]

All the fanboys, they're going to be first batch to nerdrage and cry in forums when they realize Legion has actually butchered specs while attempting to fix them. Just like how WoD was your savior and now you are shitting on it every chance you get.