Week 16 (ends 10-9-17): M-KJ 168, M-Gul'dan 600

[shaunika123]

Im just saying, heroic gear SHOULD NOT be a stepping stone to do mythic of the same raid. Thats what i meant back in the day.

but it always has been it was just called 10 man and 25 man

[topmaymay]

I'm kind of expecting another wave of nerfs to KJ soon because at this rate there will be under 100 US guilds who have killed it before the next raid comes out.

And no, the crucible isn't a huge "buff" when it comes to KJ. I predict further nerfs to dps add HP/damage, boss hp nerf (another 5% maybe), and phase 3 spawning less and less obelisks.

[Deleted]

I'm kind of expecting another wave of nerfs to KJ soon because at this rate there will be under 100 US guilds who have killed it before the next raid comes out.

And no, the crucible isn't a huge "buff" when it comes to KJ. I predict further nerfs to dps add HP/damage, boss hp nerf (another 5% maybe), and phase 3 spawning less and less obelisks.

but under 100 us kills still is like 10k eu kills right?

[KaPe]

but under 100 us kills still is like 10k eu kills right?

Totally. I mean, not in decimal or binary, but I'm sure there's a numerical system where ~200 is "10000".

[garicasha]

Tracking the kills this tier I definitely didn't realize the extent to which EU kills dominate nowadays. I remember it being more even, but back then the US had better support. And I guess back then all the oceanic kills would've been "US".

[Toogoodman]

whats this now, week 18? 230 kills on KJ world wide lul, 72 for the US.... Yeah, my guild will probably kill him this week, especially if there are nerfs, but this has been absolutely miserable, I don't think I've ever disliked a tier this much. KJ isn't hard because of huge DPS checks, or challenging mechanics, its hard because of endless soaks, and stupid ass exploding orbs on transitions that low mobility classes get fucked by, i'm looking at you priests. At this rate, I could care less if this was the first cutting edge I don't get, ToS has been a miserable few months, and as a 2 day mythic guild, we've been locking out since late August....

[Deleted]

I can only speak for my self here of course. But ToS seems to be a real killer when it comes to guilds.
We have lost 20 out of our 30 raiders in the course of a few months just with ToS 18 to real life and just being sick and tired of ToS and 2 joined a different guild as we could not progress due to numbers and could not keep up the recruitment with so many people leaving.
I've been hearing it a lot from other guilds on the server as well. We've now stopped raiding at 5/9 Mythic done and 0 pulls on mistress just because people don't want to raid ToS anymore. We did an anonymous poll and ALL raiders said they had enough of this raid.

Really not sure whats going on tbh.

So it doesn't surprise me that the number of kills on KJ is lower.

[Deleted]

I can only speak for my self here of course. But ToS seems to be a real killer when it comes to guilds.
We have lost 20 out of our 30 raiders in the course of a few months just with ToS 18 to real life and just being sick and tired of ToS and 2 joined a different guild as we could not progress due to numbers and could not keep up the recruitment with so many people leaving.
I've been hearing it a lot from other guilds on the server as well. We've now stopped raiding at 5/9 Mythic done and 0 pulls on mistress just because people don't want to raid ToS anymore. We did an anonymous poll and ALL raiders said they had enough of this raid.

Really not sure whats going on tbh.

So it doesn't surprise me that the number of kills on KJ is lower.

If you are only 5/9M with 0 pulls on Misstress, then i don't know what the problem is. People have been criticizing ToS because of Misstress/Avatar/KJ being overtuned, but you haven't even attempted those.
The first 5 bosses are on par with every other 5 bosses of previous raids (and one could argue that boss n°4 and 5 in NH were harder than in ToS...).

If your guild disband on the first 5 bosses, it's a guild issue.

[Deleted]

If you are only 5/9M with 0 pulls on Misstress, then i don't know what the problem is. People have been criticizing ToS because of Misstress/Avatar/KJ being overtuned, but you haven't even attempted those.
The first 5 bosses are on par with every other 5 bosses of previous raids (and one could argue that boss n°4 and 5 in NH were harder than in ToS...).

If your guild disband on the first 5 bosses, it's a guild issue.

Its not a difficulty issue. Its the raid it self.
We haven't had any road blocks yet but no one seems to enjoy ToS as a raid.

[Deleted]

Its not a difficulty issue. Its the raid it self.
We haven't had any road blocks yet but no one seems to enjoy ToS as a raid.

Its not tos, it the retarded farming system morons at blizzard decided to use for legion. And i'm not talking about titanforged that isnt an issue at all, the problem is AP and legendaries. Legendaries forced people to farm for months EVERYTHING (every raid in every difficulty, all m0, daily quests, all) to get what they needed (and if they made an alt, thats double effort). Then AP added stress to stress. It's obvious that after a while most people will just give up, and when you play a game like WOW giving up doesnt mean you just cut the time, it means you stop playing period, because you realize you are actually having more fun not logging on than logging and thinking you "have" to "work" to get as much as possible from your character.
The burn out legion causes is something that adds day after day, world quest bullshit (fucking idiots at blizzard when they said "hey people will always have something to do") after WQ. This system would've been great 12 years ago in vanilla, now in 2017 it's just bullshit.

Of course the "random casual" player wont mind, because all he does it log on a short time every day, do some WQs, some lfr raids, and thats it, he's ok with it, but if you want to play not saying hardcore top 50 guild, but lets say top 500-700 (so the guilda on mythic KJ now), after a while you get tired.

[Myztikrice]

AP has nothing to do with that either, you can get first crucible trait in like a day, the only problem is legendaries

[david0925]

Its not tos, it the retarded farming system morons at blizzard decided to use for legion. And i'm not talking about titanforged that isnt an issue at all, the problem is AP and legendaries. Legendaries forced people to farm for months EVERYTHING (every raid in every difficulty, all m0, daily quests, all) to get what they needed (and if they made an alt, thats double effort). Then AP added stress to stress. It's obvious that after a while most people will just give up, and when you play a game like WOW giving up doesnt mean you just cut the time, it means you stop playing period, because you realize you are actually having more fun not logging on than logging and thinking you "have" to "work" to get as much as possible from your character.
The burn out legion causes is something that adds day after day, world quest bullshit (fucking idiots at blizzard when they said "hey people will always have something to do") after WQ. This system would've been great 12 years ago in vanilla, now in 2017 it's just bullshit.

Of course the "random casual" player wont mind, because all he does it log on a short time every day, do some WQs, some lfr raids, and thats it, he's ok with it, but if you want to play not saying hardcore top 50 guild, but lets say top 500-700 (so the guilda on mythic KJ now), after a while you get tired.

we raid 2 days a week and half of the people barely log in outside of raids (they hang out on discord to play other games and do occasional group content on alts), and we are progressing fine on KJ. Many people have only 63-64 traits in their artifacts.

After they revamped the 54-point AP system, the impulse to grind AP for barely any noticeable amount of performance increase is strictly self inflicted.

AP has nothing to do with that either, you can get first crucible trait in like a day, the only problem is legendaries

I agree with this, but at this point you should have all legendaries for 2 specs if you played semi-actively since release. Not defending the system at all though.

[Deleted]

we raid 2 days a week and half of the people barely log in outside of raids (they hang out on discord to play other games and do occasional group content on alts), and we are progressing fine on KJ. Many people have only 63-64 traits in their artifacts.

After they revamped the 54-point AP system, the impulse to grind AP for barely any noticeable amount of performance increase is strictly self inflicted.




I agree with this, but at this point you should have all legendaries for 2 specs if you played semi-actively since release. Not defending the system at all though.

Define "grinding". We're on KJ progression as well, most of us are between 65 and 72 (myself). If by "grinding" you mean spamming m+ and doing every possible WQ out there, few of us do that. But even doing just argus every day is 40-50 minutes of work (more ofc if you have an alt). You dont just do it for AP, you also do it for relinquished trinkets (i play lock/sp and my bis trinkets are there IE arcano, same goes for other classes).
And sure, at this point a lot of people have all legendaries (myself i have them for every spec on 2 alts) but that doesnt mean you dont feel the burnout anymore, actually a lot of people quit playing right after they got everything and realizing how tiresome and stupid was it.
The farming and grinding they added in legion is horrible if you compare this exp to WOD where all you had to do was some raid finder for few weeks for legendary quest and then in the end a kill of archimonde per week period.

All I had to do in WOD was 2x mythic clears per week with my 2 alts, now... its hours every day.

[Myztikrice]

Define "grinding"

legendaries (myself i have them for every spec on 2 alts)

[Cistara]

Have no fear casuals, you might get KJ down before the end of the tier now. Fight just got gutted.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/21025532

[KaPe]

Casuals aren't anywhere near Avatar, nevermind KJ, so your epeen is safe. Although I'm sure it was all because of Dark Marks, so those kills will start flooding in.

Seriously, why Dark Marks? Of all the things that can be changed on that fight, they nerf the least important one. It's not like people will try to soak 3rd/4th set, since there's not enough room for that, and no one really dies on the first set, so... erm?

[Marrilaife]

Fight just got gutted.

Last time people claimed it got gutted as well, yet kills didn't start rain from the sky, neither will now. The only big nerf is the hp of dps adds, and maybe the beam too. Probably we'll see around 500 kills instead of 200-something we have now, but it won't go to the Gul'dan 1,7k numbers. I know on my server at least 4 guilds are getting close to the darkness phase, so it was mostly a matter of time of them practicing and not disbanding to kill it. Now the guilds that aren't there yet... I sincerely don't know.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not like people will try to soak 3rd/4th set, since there's not enough room for that, and no one really dies on the first set, so... erm?

Allows more classes to solo soak reducing the disparity between having tons of rogues / mages / hunters and not having them I guess.

[Dracodraco]

Casuals aren't anywhere near Avatar, nevermind KJ, so your epeen is safe. Although I'm sure it was all because of Dark Marks, so those kills will start flooding in.

Seriously, why Dark Marks? Of all the things that can be changed on that fight, they nerf the least important one. It's not like people will try to soak 3rd/4th set, since there's not enough room for that, and no one really dies on the first set, so... erm?

Dark marks is literally the only thing that can't be entirely controlled in the fight. You get RNG'd with non-immunity classes getting the late ones, that sucks. Making them do 7M down from 9M means that almost every single class can solo soak with a personal + potentially external (EG; 7M*0.60 from warlock CD = 4.2, or a 20% reduction + ironbark or sac, AMS+IBF for dks etc etc). It simply makes the last "bad" part of the encounter less prone to RNG; Giving every class a potential to solo a mark makes it equal for everyone.

What else would you nerf about the encounter? My guilds' already pushing Avatar to 20% before Maiden gets to cast her 4th shield, so HP certainly shouldn't be a concern (especially with ongoing crucible increase in strength). It's already been made less punishing to leak energy, both through a nerf that makes him gain less energy per leak (5 instead of 7, IIRC), and by reducing his HP so that you can push him low enough to kill without a "perfect" p1.

Honestly the only thing you might be able to change to make the encounter more forgiving outside of simply REMOVING abilities, is to make the daggers not target people that are currently soaking beams.

[KaPe]

What else would you nerf about the encounter? My guilds' already pushing Avatar to 20% before Maiden gets to cast her 4th shield, so HP certainly shouldn't be a concern (especially with ongoing crucible increase in strength). It's already been made less punishing to leak energy, both through a nerf that makes him gain less energy per leak (5 instead of 7, IIRC), and by reducing his HP so that you can push him low enough to kill without a "perfect" p1.

Honestly the only thing you might be able to change to make the encounter more forgiving outside of simply REMOVING abilities, is to make the daggers not target people that are currently soaking beams.

Or make purple debuff drop faster/stack slower, so you need less people and mistakes can be recovered from more easily. Or do something about Tornados passing through soak spots - maybe soaking could clear the dot or something. Or just plain old damage nerfs, so a minor positioning error doesn't mean instant death.

They quite literally chose one of the least important part of the fight. If you're at the point where you seriously worry about Dark Marks damage - and not just practicing P2 - you've already dealt with far worse things. Sure, it might helps to squeeze a kill which would otherwise be 1-2% wipe, but really...

[garicasha]

I'm actually surprised they aren't more extensive. They're definitely nerfs but IMO guilds that were already going to kill it are going to get it easier, and most guilds that weren't still won't.

The reduction of the add's health though is enormous, that's one of the most difficult parts of the fight.

The reduction of the kiting is possibly more important than I realize, I haven't been in M-P3 yet.

The others are big quality-of-life improvements for healers, but I don't think it's enough to change comps. Err actually the rain nerf makes a double stack way less threatening, that might help quite a bit.

All of the one-shot mechanics are still present (big soaks/little soaks/being knocked off/clumping on dreadflame), so it's easier but I did expect more. (Same for Avatar--Dark Mark reduction helps P2 a ton, but everything dangerous in P1 is untouched.)