WoW's Utterly Disgraceful 'PvP' Experience / System

[Charge me Doctor]

No, but you couldn't wait to try to dis someone because you're so...kewl & edgy...instead of discussing the points he brought up.

Well if only he presented any points in his OP to discuss, because it's kinda hard to get anything out this babyrage

[Mafic]

The original post was logical and made a lot of good points. The original poster even neatly divided the post up into proper paragraphs.

[sarkarin]

The original post was logical and made a lot of good points. The original poster even neatly divided the post up into proper paragraphs.

Can't tell if sarcasm or not but yeah perhaps I shall clarify more as the thread continues.

[munkeyinorbit]

No, but you couldn't wait to try to dis someone because you're so...kewl & edgy...instead of discussing the points he brought up.

Or maybe you can just fly off the handle because PvP is as good as it has ever been. They have almost taken gear out of the equation and people have just realised that they are terrible and blame blizzard for it. I mean, come on. Getting ilvl 870-890 gear is not the reason people are getting stomped. It is because they are bad. People who are rocking 920-940 gear only have a 5% increase in damage. PvP in legion is as balanced as it has ever been. Maybe if people would calm their tits on a fan forum and actually practice, they may get better at the game.

[sarkarin]

I agree so much with the OP that I bothered with resetting my password of this old (relatively) account that I never use. I had to come and say that I agree, but woah, I actually have more to say.

Glad to have roused your return good to have passionate people in the community.

1) Stop trying to force people to see WoW as a competitive E-sports game because it isn't and it cannot be. Every passing moment WoW feels more like HoTS, I'm just playing the third person version of a dull MOBA.

I think WoW would best be observed as a Wargame. The difficulty with Arena to watch is the lack of context and drama to make it interesting. 3 plonkers trot into a box and blow each other up. Yeah great story so interesting (not). "BRING IN THE NEXT GUYS!"

If they streamed BGs on twitch for example I could see it being more like watching a soccer match or a league game depending on how it's done but I'll give an example to clarify what I mean.

The BG starts and viewers are shown team composition, classes and specializations in the BG. Then it shows the transmogs of the teams sort of like when they show lineups in Football matches or something. This could easily happen in the 2 minutes it takes for the gates in the BG to opened (time can be adjusted). Viewers are shown stats about players highlighting interesting things about the players on the teams like High Warlord, Arena Master, R1. It could even show raider/other stuff if there's nothing of note but still interesting to people who know about WoW etc. Imagine a kid sitting next to you could ask you what an "Arena Master" is and you can have a conversation etc

Anyway the gates open and both teams make decisions about who is going where and that sets up the viewer to anticipate the coming conflict.

The battle unfolds in dramatic ways for example a 5 v 3 at stables where one team is outnumbered but maybe someone makes an amazing play and makes it 5v4 and then suddenly reinforcements arrive from both sides and a victor emerges. The story doesn't stop when one fight ends because it's a battle. It's not over the instant someone dies like arena. It evolves and is interesting because it is much easier to interpret events over a series of events rather than chuck the dead bodies out of the arena and bring in the next potential corpses.

There are huge things in there to be capitalised on just not the creativity in the company to make them happen.

But anyway that's just my take. I'm hardly rich or famous like these 2.6k streamers and so called "creative professionals" they have directing all their esports stuff but I am 100% sure someone with a brain and some coordination could get this done both on a technical level and so much more.

[Lex Icon]

Glad to have roused your return good to have passionate people in the community.



I think WoW would best be observed as a Wargame. The difficulty with Arena to watch is the lack of context and drama to make it interesting. 3 plonkers trot into a box and blow each other up. Yeah great story so interesting (not). "BRING IN THE NEXT GUYS!"

If they streamed BGs on twitch for example I could see it being more like watching a soccer match or a league game depending on how it's done but I'll give an example to clarify what I mean.

The BG starts and viewers are shown team composition, classes and specializations in the BG. Then it shows the transmogs of the teams sort of like when they show lineups in Football matches or something. This could easily happen in the 2 minutes it takes for the gates in the BG to opened (time can be adjusted). Viewers are shown stats about players highlighting interesting things about the players on the teams like High Warlord, Arena Master, R1. It could even show raider/other stuff if there's nothing of note but still interesting to people who know about WoW etc. Imagine a kid sitting next to you could ask you what an "Arena Master" is and you can have a conversation etc

Anyway the gates open and both teams make decisions about who is going where and that sets up the viewer to anticipate the coming conflict.

The battle unfolds in dramatic ways for example a 5 v 3 at stables where one team is outnumbered but maybe someone makes an amazing play and makes it 5v4 and then suddenly reinforcements arrive from both sides and a victor emerges. The story doesn't stop it when one fight ends because it's a battle. It's not over the instant someone dies like arena. It evolves and is interesting because it is much easier to interpret events over a series of events rather than chuck the dead bodies out of the arena and bring in the next potential corpses.

There are huge things in there to be capitalised on just not the creativity in the company to make them happen.

But anyway that's just my take. I'm hardly rich or famous like these 2.6k streamers and so called "creative professionals" they have directing all their esports stuff but I am 100% sure someone with a brain and some coordination could get this done both on a technical level and so much more.

rather watch that than arenas..
maps like wsg or ab with some nice overhead shots would be way more interesting. besides organized bg's are waaaaaaaay more interesting than arenas.

[sarkarin]

Or maybe you can just fly off the handle because PvP is as good as it has ever been. They have almost taken gear out of the equation and people have just realised that they are terrible and blame blizzard for it.

I don't think the implementation of the templates has been a bad thing to be honest but it's left the community salty because the stats are predefined which has toxic effect on how much of a difference our own choices are making to the actual gameplay. They need to give the community back the power to customise stats such as stat choosing and racial abilities similar to the ability you choose before a match in League of Legends.

I'm surprised racial abilities haven't been moved into it's own chosen ability category years ago. It would make a lot of things possible and make the gameplay better. if you're DPS you might choose Troll racial. If you are going to PvP as healer you could take Human Racial. If you want to invade Alliance / Horde city you could take shadowmeld to give you the element of surprise in the outside world.

I would love to go to SW city and shadowmeld on the tram and then appear and kill someone mid-tram. That would be hilarious. It would be something that needs a balanced approach but they could relax that kind of thing in the outside world and it would be a fun expanse of gameplay

Overall the only thing stopping them is lack of creative ideas. They could easily design some more interfaces and have this in the game in a raid patch.

Getting ilvl 870-890 gear is not the reason people are getting stomped. It is because they are bad. People who are rocking 920-940 gear only have a 5% increase in damage.

Everyone is different, people get stomped for different reasons. Let's not pretend the effort put into PvP is worthy of the slap in the face of such an item. It's a shard before you even get it for god sake!

[Thundaron]

As I have said in some other thread, WoW PvP is outdated as hell, mostly thanks to their numerous desperate attempts to make arenas an esport.

But the way you describe it, you make it sound as if it was perfect back then. Was it? No.

Especially shit like mace spec that warriors or rogues had - you complain about not being able to control your character due to CC and then you praise mace spec. Really?

And remember Burn Mana and Drain Mana spells? Oh golly how awesome were these! Schwing schwing schwing and your healer is oom, rendering him utterly useless.

I could go on, but the point is, not all the changes were bad and honestly, most of them were for better. It's just that the bad stuff will always stand out.

Can you please specify where did I complain about not being able to control my character? Are you confusing me with someone?
The point was, every character had unique builds that caused diversity and depth in gameplay. I didn't mean to spesificly praise Mace build. I just hate every Demon Hunter is using the same talents, already have the same stats. This feels like a MOBA meta rather than an MMO where character progression actually mattered.

I do not claim it was perfect back then, but at least it had more depth and strategy variety instead of this...

[Caolela]

Or maybe you can just fly off the handle because PvP is as good as it has ever been. They have almost taken gear out of the equation and people have just realised that they are terrible and blame blizzard for it. I mean, come on. Getting ilvl 870-890 gear is not the reason people are getting stomped. It is because they are bad. People who are rocking 920-940 gear only have a 5% increase in damage. PvP in legion is as balanced as it has ever been. Maybe if people would calm their tits on a fan forum and actually practice, they may get better at the game.

Somewhere along the way, people like you forgot that WoW is a MMORPG, not a MOBA or FPS. +/- 5% in damage is like losing or gaining a talent row, it can be a big factor especially if it accumulates more for one team than another.

Gear is not out of the equation by a long shot (up to ~14% difference) which has been discussed here ad nauseum.

[docterfreeze]

Or maybe you can just fly off the handle because PvP is as good as it has ever been. They have almost taken gear out of the equation and people have just realised that they are terrible and blame blizzard for it. I mean, come on. Getting ilvl 870-890 gear is not the reason people are getting stomped. It is because they are bad. People who are rocking 920-940 gear only have a 5% increase in damage. PvP in legion is as balanced as it has ever been. Maybe if people would calm their tits on a fan forum and actually practice, they may get better at the game.

PvP this expansion is at an all time low skillwise. There's hardly anything to improve on. Play one class every day for a week or two and you've mastered it. Compare that to the multiple months of play it took to master a class in previous expansions.

[TheFuse]

If you want quality PvP go play a game where PvP is the main focus. It has been and always will be a shitty mini-game in WoW.

[Kagthul]

If you want quality PvP go play a game where PvP is the main focus. It has been and always will be a shitty mini-game in WoW.

That more people participated in at end game than ever set foot into a raid, even to this day

[TheVaryag]

Get rated or get fu**ed. You want gear? You have to get up there with the 'good' players at 2k+ rating or be satisfied with basically no reward at all. You lose before you even begin. It's like saying would you rather climb a HUGE mountain (Climb the PvP ladder) or drive a car (PvE) around the mountain. The rewards are pathetic ranging from 870 to 890 currently and have sh** stats like versatility by default. So there you go, we've throw 90% of community under the bus already good job.

Meta comp / specs are the only viable specs. It's more rock, paper, scissors than ever before. To people who say comp doesn't matter: tell two equally skilled people to screw a table together. Give one a screwdriver and the other a butter knife and see who does the job better. Some classes and specs are just INHERENTLY better than others by sheer design. Just look at the damn skill capped website which has a comprehensive list of which specs are trash and which are viable if you don't believe me. On top of this specs live and die by the patches. They go from god to garbage and can stay that way for years with ZERO communication at all from the devs. Anyone who doesn't play a 'meta' spec is thrown under the bus.

The pinnacle of the 'PvP' experience is this utter shite fest where 'skilled' players spam macros and swifty macro one shot somebody. Arena is a horrible claustrophobic pillar humping contest full of arena123 macro spam where you can go 20+ sec of no char control. No doubt it takes coordination and 'skill' (lol) but this kind of gameplay is horrible. This game has huge vast landmasses and yet we are forced into this small box. WoW would be much better of in a Wargame setting like RBG but again it's just another toxic place that suffers from all of the above and the "papers please" format of the PvP system. It boils down to "link 2k achieve" or don't bother. The game is clearly in desperate need of some kind of solo / group queue system and in-world content.

World PvP no longer existing in any recognisable dignified state is just evidence in itself of the neglect suffered by the PvP aspect of the game.

Anyway for me, the worst part of all is the horrifically toxic community that shouts down everyone by using titles and r1 achievements while belittling and abusing anyone as if they are above and everyone else is below. Regardless the participation and the numbers have tanked year after year and they are blind to it and the reasons why. It's like morpheus says in the Matrix. Some people are so hopelessly brainwashed and dependant on the system they will defend the very thing that is destroying them.

Anyway I'm sure there will be no shortage of 'experts' on here to shoot me down in flames as they always do. I can only hope there is a major change around the corner in the next expansion. I shall clarify points as the thread goes on.

It's a good point, and I'm not surprised the casuals, the giant fanboys and others are so against this post, because you know, being a fanboy Is such a good Idea and gives you so much benefits... irony detected.

Anyway, as a 12 year long player of WoW and veteran of PvPing I completely agree, Initially I was skeptical of the PvP templates before Legion launched, and guess what I WAS BLOODY RIGHT.

The templates give nothing Interesting other than "Equalizing everyone" even every casual sod who wants to come and PvP with the big wigs assuming he got boosted by a friend to get the best gear within weeks but has no Idea how to play his class. And saying that, I must mention the foreshadowing of WoW getting Lootboxes.. I swear to god, If this Blizzcon 2017 gives us Lootboxes on WoW I am done, and I encourage all other players to just abandon WoW at that point and show them that's not right.

Because right now, we literally -have- loot boxes for PvPing. Remember how we had high end pvp gear and It was so good to gather It, enchant It pimp It out and show off, and not only that but you proved you were stronger and could be a big wig tryhard In arenas/bgs and you actually proved you took time and effort to be In that position? Well now that "Season pvp gear" drops from Loot Boxes you get from Battlegrounds/arenas, and not only that.. IT'S really bad gear, the ilevel Is so useless the Argus 910 gear you get Is objectively better and your time spent getting that Is much better than trying to get random loot boxes with pvp gear that gives you nothing special...

And not only that, those loot boxes don't even DROP GUARANTEED ON A WIN. Remember when PvP was simple? You won, you got 500 honor (Made up ofc) you loose you get 250, makes sense, right? But now It's a coin toss on If you even get a loot box for a win or not, and then It depends what randoms hit you get In that loot box that you're going to sell for 26 gold anyway.

And that's not even mentioning the obsurd Prestige system, that just makes people go tryhard like never before, not only that the rewards are laughable. 200 gold? Really? You get like 600+ from a table mission on your order hall by spending a bit of order hall res, but you get 200 gold from PvPing and working your ass of to get that prestige higher? Great job, Blizz.

And lets not forget, Blizzard at launch thought It'd be a good Idea to have the Prestige system reset all of your honor talents, so you had to re-earn them again, thankfully they removed that In 7.1 but just remember that they thought It was a good Idea and It shows the direction of their thought process. If people didn't lash out on that, It'd still be In there and the remaining fanboy sheep wouldn't even say a word and just go "Yes Blizzard master" and take whatever they give.

I'm telling you, this loot box thing we got In PvP might just foreshadow more loot boxes In WoW and when that happens, I'm out. I don't want this to be Overwatch or Heroes' loot box system. Hell I don't want the market place for mounts or pets either, how about we -earn- those Instead of just buy them?

So all In all, I agree with you man, PvPing Is going down the drain and when It does, half of wow will and than the rest of It will as well. And that's sad, cause on a certain unnamed WoW Vanilla Private Server I'm having more fun with questing, pvping and pve'ing than I am on Retail WoW and that's sad that the base game that IT launched as 12 years ago Is better than what we got now, not perfect, but better.

[Lazuli]

It would take a miracle for these Diablo 3 rejects to come right out and be like 'yeah we fucked up, everythings fixed this next expansion' so I'm fairly certain this is how pvp will be from now on. I don't think any decent devs are even at the company anymore, seems like it's all new blood and the vets just moved or got put on one of their other titles. How we go from MoP pvp to this is baffling.

Removal of reforging and pvp merchants are without a doubt 2 big offenders. I don't know why we needed loot boxes, a disgusting system in an expansion with an over abundance of RNG. When you do get loot, better be high rated cuz otherwise it's just gonna be another 870 to 890 piece of trash that you feed to the furnace or merch. Honestly I just merch or DE them cuz the amount you need to buy one of those pieces of gear is absolutely ridiculous and shit aint even account bound like are you kidding me...

The classes are more braindead than ever, even the infamous high skill cap sub rogue is now devolved into a shadow dance spamming god who can do whatever the fuck it wants at any moment. Everyone is apparently a wombo combo burstlord now, it's not uncommon to see people drop instantly in arena after getting them to pop a couple CDs. We are at the pinnacle of balance boys truly.

If you take a look at wpvp and legendaries it's just more drivel from the D3 rejects, it is literally their intention to make you feel like a god and just mow people down, just like you can in D3. They want you to feel powerful but this is not healthy for wpvp at all, it's basically dead in Legion and everyone + their mom knows it's an absolute joke. Those pussies won't enable world templates because it would ruin the 'feel' of your over poweredness. Once again Blizz slobbering on the dongs of clueless casuals while anyone who takes this game even semi-half seriously gets the short end.

[sarkarin]

If you take a look at wpvp and legendaries it's just more drivel from the D3 rejects, it is literally their intention to make you feel like a god and just mow people down, just like you can in D3. They want you to feel powerful but this is not healthy for wpvp at all, it's basically dead in Legion and everyone + their mom knows it's an absolute joke. Those pussies won't enable world templates because it would ruin the 'feel' of your over poweredness. Once again Blizz slobbering on the dongs of clueless casuals while anyone who takes this game even semi-half seriously gets the short end.

I agree the power creep is completely stupid and has had a detrimental effect on how we experience the challenge of the game both in PvE and PvP.

For example in PvE there is literally no monster people are afraid to see or meet out in the world because it is all easy to kill and nothing is a threat. Even the so called 'elites' are just laughably easy and there are queues of people waiting for them to reappear so they can quickly be killed again. I mean these green, scaly, intense monsters are practically falling out of the sky and we're like "meh clean up on Isle 6". It's an afront to the lore of the game and our gameplay experience because how can you take it seriously or be immersed when your killing bad guys by the score and scared of jack sh**. People don't fu** with monsters and scary looking things in the Dark Souls series, they take it seriously because they will be killed horrendously and be punished (rightly) for having that attitude.

Blizzard talks of having an immersive WoW experience but they are actively destroying the experience by using this idiotic power creep to make people feel powerful or important somehow. It's patronising and idiotic. Players do not want to be elevated to being a god among men because they don't want to be this exceptional being of power but rather they just want to be one normal inhabitant of Azeroth and meet other races and individuals from various places.

For PvP, without using templates out in the world, they are in effect subjugating us to what we ourselves do to the mobs. Deleting with no chance of survival or risk. It's an absolutely unacceptable outcome in both PvE and PvP if you ask me but hey what do I know I'm just a 'WoW customer'.

So all In all, I agree with you man, PvPing Is going down the drain and when It does, half of wow will and than the rest of It will as well. And that's sad, cause on a certain unnamed WoW Vanilla Private Server I'm having more fun with questing, pvping and pve'ing than I am on Retail WoW and that's sad that the base game that IT launched as 12 years ago Is better than what we got now, not perfect, but better.

I believe the problem lies in the turnover of staff at the company. I mean look at Holinka and his predecessors. Some of us would literally KILL to be the head developer of PvP in a Global MMO. That is a REAL position of power and ability to make and influence meaningful decisions in a game we all love. The potential is huge. But no, they employ 'creative professionals' like Holinka, a dispassionate dude who literally said he would quit if someone paid for him to retire and has had very uninspired ideas like Ashran and accomplished basically nothing while the community has fled by the thousands. Need I say more?

[Lizardo221]

I sat down and read every single post here, and I find many of them to be true, though some lack a full understanding of the game's meat and bones. For starters, the driving force behind the template system was the large imbalances caused by gear. That includes item level, item procs, and set bonuses. New players in bgs got slaughtered like mad by pvp vets. Anyone forget melee classes, especially warriors, having that nice double strike proc on their weapon that caused a random 2 shot in matches? It was not fun to play against. Trinket procs of all kinds won and lost many games through the years. And let’s not forget the cries of, "You only beat me because you have a full resilience set and I don't!"

While still on the subject of gear, gearing in itself is another level of barrier to entry because you need knowledge of how to gear properly, as seen often in pve. The wrong stats by choice or luck will cause a massive swing in damage or healing. Furthermore, the old systems required you to pve all the time to get access to the best gear. "But pve is easier to gear in legion -" shhhh ... that is a different problem to be addressed later, but you cannot lie to yourself and say that pvp does not ALLOW you to gear solely in pvp. This is probably the only point in the game’s history where a pvper has not been required to pve in the hardest content possible for best-in-slot gear.

The templates, frankly, were a brilliant design choice for casual pvp, but they still have plenty of draw backs as you get into higher levels of gameplay. Certain specs simply do not work as well as others without really strong itemization. Ret paladin is an interesting case to look at as an example because the only way the spec is remotely competitive in pve is if you take the crusader talent. That in turn requires certain stat weights and rules to get the most out of the talent. But a template simply won't align with those rules for the sake of "fairness" for all "builds". I want no mastery, but the template forces me to have some. This sort of problem ret has is seen in lots of specs, and despite the template system having been made for the sake of fairness, it causes certain specs to be much better than others.

Looking at world pvp, you all need to focus far less on pvp developers and more on the pve. The pvp developers already cause a pvp template to trigger in world content when you fight players, BUT they can't stop legendaries, trinkets, and weird items from triggering. The game, as far as I can tell, cannot turn on and off spells as you interact with players (only by loading into a "pvp zone" can they toggle such things off). I would just not pvp in the world much till next expansion when the current legendary system is retired and hopefully a better one is implemented. I would also like to remind you all that when you get nuked in the world, this is what pvp would have been like with no templates. You would need to be as equally geared as the attacker, or you would be turned into butter. Something to keep in mind when you beg for the good ol’ days.

Now, as for pve gear being more easily attainable, I completely agree. I could farm solely in pvp, but I also know that I could easily farm the gear in dungeons in a shorter period of time. With that said, though, gear is far less of a factor in pvp than ever before, so its somewhat of a weak point to complain about. The guy at 930 is the same stats as a guy at 939. It's actually crazy how little your gear matters in pvp, to the point where it somewhat cheapens what I earn in a battleground ("oh, 950 boots ... no improvement ...").

Getting a little outside of pvp, the blizzard developers basically have two ways they implement changes to the games: patches and expansions. Patches are usually for small changes while expansions are large ones. Most of the things you all are wishing for unfortunately fall under an expansion. It is true that some patches you see big things happen, but generally the developers only do that when something is broken but easily fixable. Templating items, reworking legendary system entirely, redoing the entire pvp loot system, and rethinking how to calibrate templates are all massive changes to the game that, frankly, make more sense to do in the next expansion with other huge changes to the game I am sure are coming. Does that suck to hear? Yes, yes it does. But I also think that is a reality we need to accept (for now) and try, as a community, to productively help avoid such problems from happening in the future. That means you all need to type less angry posts or virtue signaling (I saw you Caolela, stop it), and spend more time beta testing the expansion and giving feedback. Even feedback now would be helpful if you present it well in the warcraft forums.

As for blizzard, I think they need do a much better job of testing late game issues we are having right now. They seem to only test things as if its the first day of the expansion, not the 200th when we figured out all of the tricks. A personal example for me is M+ where at really high keys, nearly half the specs in game cannot possibly participate in. Blizzard somewhat got slapped in the metaphoric face seeing it in the tournament, forcing changes now and later, but that can be avoided if they test like everyone is a gladiator doing +20s in dungeons.

As a final point, I will leave you all with a question: Does fairness matter in pvp?

[Nuba]

Regarding WoW and E-Sports, everyone should watch this:

[Mafic]

Can't tell if sarcasm or not but yeah perhaps I shall clarify more as the thread continues.

Your post is fine. Some people are not used to proper paragraphs haha.

[sarkarin]

Getting a little outside of pvp, the blizzard developers basically have two ways they implement changes to the games: patches and expansions. Patches are usually for small changes while expansions are large ones. Most of the things you all are wishing for unfortunately fall under an expansion. It is true that some patches you see big things happen, but generally the developers only do that when something is broken but easily fixable. Templating items, reworking legendary system entirely, redoing the entire pvp loot system, and rethinking how to calibrate templates are all massive changes to the game that, frankly, make more sense to do in the next expansion with other huge changes to the game I am sure are coming. Does that suck to hear? Yes, yes it does. But I also think that is a reality we need to accept (for now) and try, as a community, to productively help avoid such problems from happening in the future. That means you all need to type less angry posts or virtue signaling (I saw you Caolela, stop it), and spend more time beta testing the expansion and giving feedback. Even feedback now would be helpful if you present it well in the warcraft forums.

As for blizzard, I think they need do a much better job of testing late game issues we are having right now. They seem to only test things as if its the first day of the expansion, not the 200th when we figured out all of the tricks. A personal example for me is M+ where at really high keys, nearly half the specs in game cannot possibly participate in. Blizzard somewhat got slapped in the metaphoric face seeing it in the tournament, forcing changes now and later, but that can be avoided if they test like everyone is a gladiator doing +20s in dungeons.

As a final point, I will leave you all with a question: Does fairness matter in pvp?

We'll know what's happening in the immediate future don't worry. BlizzCon is just around the corner and I'm sure we'll hear something. If there's crickets and no PvP announcements then the PvP community will flatline.

Yes fairness does matter in PvP. You wouldn't play a game of chess with me if I said you can't have a queen or any rooks but I can. It would be unfair for me to have an advantage over you.

Blizz were made aware of the problems during beta feedback and they were utterly ignored. I remember reading the forums all the time and people were saying World PvP and burst were out of control and I even remember players saying they found it impossible to escape melee. The signs were all there and the blues were so silent you could hear crickets. Stupid OP things went to live on launch day. DH in PvP on launch were so god like that people were spamming posts on reddit of DH 1 v 3 wins and being instakilled.

It's like I said in my previous post, the signs are all there but they don't have the creativity or the passion to do what needs to be done. They've done the bare minimum. Perhaps they are doing damage control on the whole thing and doing a huge overhaul next expansion. PvP community damn well needs it and deserves it.

[Misuteri]

I haven’t been a WoW subscriber for more than 3 years and this same exact pst could have been copied and pasted from the forums back then and been just as relevant today.

The wheels on the bus go round and round FOTM and metas have existed since season one.