Are barriers to mythic raiding worth it?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

[Emerald Archer]

It's tricky, because numbers are an issue for a lot of guilds, and is the reason for tons falling apart.

But making mythic doable crossrealm, isn't really the fix. Just wouldn't help most guilds who struggle number wise, get a consistent roster of the same people.

Making it so the game was connected, and anyone on any realm could join any guild would probably fix the issue, but that isn't a realistic solution?

10man being available again would fix this issue, but I don't think Blizz will add it back in. And mythic being flex makes for the same issues 10man had, and tbf the balancing would be even worse.

I think the only reasonable solution, is to combine more realms together, get more mixed realms. Big servers don't have this issue as much, so combo the small servers, whether you're adding 4-5 together or what.

[Deleted]

On relevant bosses flex wouldn't actually be flex. It would just be whatever number of players gives you certain debuff target cutoffs or best boss/add health ratios.

Cross-realm serves no gameplay purpose, it's only there for Blizzard to make money off server/faction changes.

[Deleted]

No, the barriers are the grind, declining numbers and the pendulum swinging so far in the way of personal responsibility you are either waiting for other people to catch up and single out, or you are the problem. In which case, why not play other similar games that offer a WoW-lite experience to be consumed at your own leisure?

You can have mythic cross-realm and flex, but until the point of why so many are turned off is addressed, you'll be band-aiding it.

[callipygoustp]

Too many people confuse wanting to mythic raid with being able to mythic raid.

[Girrag]

No reasons for mythic raids not to be cross-realm. But then can't be flex, it's impossible to balance them then.

[Rafoel]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

"Skilled enough to do mythic mechanics".

"progresses mythic sisters with average ilvl of 945 and 5 netherlight crucible traits"

Skilled enough, sure sure.

[Deleted]

Should just bring 10 man raiding back,thats all.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

"Skilled enough to do mythic mechanics".

"progresses mythic sisters with average ilvl of 945 and 5 netherlight crucible traits"

Skilled enough, sure sure.

I never mentioned gear or traits, so guess you're referencing something else from your own experience? If your point is that mechanics are harder before you outgear them, well duh. Kudos will always be earned by those who kill bosses faster and/or with less gear. Would you disagree that building and maintaining the 20 person team is a bigger barrier for many guilds than practicing and learning mythic mechanics?

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I titled this thread with a question - ? - with a reason. I don't claim to have answers. I just know that many are in this position and I wonder if there's a better way.

Learning and executing mythic boss fights is a challenge.
Building and maintaining a 20 team is a very different challenge.
There are lots of players who enjoy one and not the other. I know after I get off work that the idea of guild recruiting doesn't excite me. I also accept that I'm not the most elite player in the world, but I've yet to meet a boss mechanic I couldn't master with enough practice. At the end of the day, it's just a video game and none of this really matters. But if there was an easy fix that would allow more guilds to try progressing in M without having to break up or merge or spend all day spamming recruitment ads...

[Rafoel]

I never mentioned gear or traits, so guess you're referencing something else from your own experience? If your point is that mechanics are harder before you outgear them, well duh. Kudos will always be earned by those who kill bosses faster and/or with less gear. Would you disagree that building and maintaining the 20 person team is a bigger barrier for many guilds than practicing and learning mythic mechanics?

My point was that people are currently reaching so high ilvls that mythic fights are becoming trivial, most dmg can be outhealed and adds die before they even beging being a threat to anybody. Damage on tanks is completely negligible, as is enrage timer - 1/3 of raid could basically afk and you would still kill boss in time.

Every raid instance has a specific lifetime, after that fighs are no longer challenging and lose importance. However, especially just before the release of next raid, many guilds that finished heroic feel like "they deserve" to be able to progress further, because the mythic bosses "aren't too hard" for them anymore.

Bruh, if you were ready for mythic, you would have cleared hc during first week... or ok, give it a month. If you couldn't, that means people in your raid group are bad, and fact that you outgear the content by 20ilvls doesn;t mean Blizzard should make it more accessible to you.

Btw OP don't take it personally, I'm just writing towards general abstract hc raider that could have such problem.

[dadev]

On relevant bosses flex wouldn't actually be flex. It would just be whatever number of players gives you certain debuff target cutoffs or best boss/add health ratios.

Cross-realm serves no gameplay purpose, it's only there for Blizzard to make money off server/faction changes.

It will be so if you're allowed to change group size every encounter. However, if you lock the instance (not only killed boss, but also raid size) after the first kill then it solves a lot of associated issues (not all, but most). People might still target the boss they're progressing on with "best" raid size, but largely the problem will be solved.

[Doffen]

They could bring it down to 15 people. Alot easier to balance than 10, and being 5 less would be a significantly amount to help alot of guilds.

Lots of guilds clearing Heroic now and could at least do 3-5 bosses on mythic with a little change.

[Deleted]

One possible solution could be to keep mythic raiding the way it is for the first 2 months, and then enable cross-realm and perhaps even flex as the cutting edge are surely done by that point and as such no longer affected by it? I must say it's rather annoying to steam-roll through HC due to having much better gear this expansion relative to prior expansions and then basically be out of raiding content because you don't have enough people to enter Mythic.

It does suck that the only challenging content our guild is even able to commit to is mythic plus, which I love, but raiding has become incredibly boring as a result at this point.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

My point was that people are currently reaching so high ilvls that mythic fights are becoming trivial, most dmg can be outhealed and adds die before they even beging being a threat to anybody. Damage on tanks is completely negligible, as is enrage timer - 1/3 of raid could basically afk and you would still kill boss in time.

Every raid instance has a specific lifetime, after that fighs are no longer challenging and lose importance. However, especially just before the release of next raid, many guilds that finished heroic feel like "they deserve" to be able to progress further, because the mythic bosses "aren't too hard" for them anymore.

Bruh, if you were ready for mythic, you would have cleared hc during first week... or ok, give it a month. If you couldn't, that means people in your raid group are bad, and fact that you outgear the content by 20ilvls doesn;t mean Blizzard should make it more accessible to you.

Btw OP don't take it personally, I'm just writing towards general abstract hc raider that could have such problem.

I see your point, and I'm not likely to be offended by anything that happens in a video game. Very much aware that some players are better and some are worse; that's just how life goes.

I don't remember exactly when we cleared H; thinking it was end of July? And the raid came out mid June? If that's correct, we just missed your one month window. But that still leaves almost 3 months we've had clearing H over and over without that next challenge to embrace.

I might also quibble with your definition of being M ready. Isn't that all relative? I could spin it and say if you weren't competitive in the world first race, you weren't M ready. And we could get into debate over how many bosses were killed with less gear vs how many guilds worked overtime to gear up faster. If anything, I would separate accomplishments by average gear of the raid team rather than by which week they killed it. Maybe factor in how many online tutorials and kill videos were already available at the time, to reward trailblazers over copycats. Either way, if a raid is going to be out for months, players are presumably welcome to start progressing in it whenever they can get past the gating restrictions.

Lastly: Please note that I've only talked about getting a foot in the door to try the raid; no one here has asked that mythic kills be handed to them.

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You seem to be focused on whether players in smaller guilds are skilled enough to kill mythic bosses, or whether it should count if they kill them with better gear; I am questioning whether the game is better for requiring 20 players to even try. Sounds like different subjects to me.

[EliWallach]

The gap between mythic and heroic is so large that they could easily fit another difficulty in between. Or since that's not likely ever to happen, they could make heroic significantly harder with appropriate adjustments to gear so that guilds that typically take a few months to clear heroic might instead take 4 or 5 months. That would make raiding much more interesting to the numerous raiding guilds that for whatever reason cannot push into mythic. Right now heroic is what 915? Push it up 10 ilvls so that on average heroic rewards would be much more rewarding than mythic plus dungeons.

[Twdft]

As long as mythic has a fixed raid ID opening current mythic raids for cross realm is a bad idea. Just think about the drama of "stolen" IDs.

[Skulltaker]

No flex, no cross-realm... Yeah, I get that there are reasons for both, but are they worth the difficulty they create for guilds wishing to participate in mythic raiding? How many guilds cleared H weeks ago and are skilled enough to do mythic mechanics, but can't consistently pull the numbers together? Should otherwise happy guilds be pressured to merge/break up/have drama because H has become passé but M feels out of reach?

If they did decide to change some part of this equation, what should it be?

I actually expected it to be harder.

A couple of months ago, my M+ group left our back then hero raid, because, well, there were a few players who would have struggled to qualify for even normal. I'm talking affli warlocks and shadow priests that barely manage 500k dps on inquisition or avatar. We were unwilling to carry them any longer, and formed our own raid guild. We managed to down Kil'Baeden three weeks befor the nerf/cruicible was there, and are now sitting at 6/9 mythic.

It is great fun! But is it worth it loot wise? Hell no. That is the biggest issue I have with Titan-forged. I'm a little bit of a loot whore, as I have three Set items from hero that procced 940+. My chance of actually getting the transmog are towards 0. I don't mind that much, but still, it feels weird. I'm now actualyl lower in Ilvl than when we startet mythic raiding.

[Teri]

They should fix guilds/realms being more cross-realm compatible, or connecting more realms into mega-realms.

Then the demand for ever smaller raid will be less.

Also titanforging heroic loot / M+ makes many people happy where they are, if that overlap didn't exist, more people might have tried going mythic.

[Deleted]

Blizzard should combine more low-population servers, I think that would fix a lot of the recruitment issues at the moment.
But ToS Mythic is also just very annoying mechanics-wise. I get that Blizzard doesn't want mythic to be something you can just out-gear and then laugh at, but the amount of single person mistake -> raid wipe mechanics and telepathic communication/weak auras required is getting out of hand as well.
I've seen the KJ M fight and just seeing it, I have no interest in doing that fight at all, on top of that, it's not even worth it for the gear, "thanks" to Titanforging the gap between what drops from M and HC isn't so big anyway.

[Deleted]

Too many people confuse wanting to mythic raid with being able to mythic raid.

You make it sound as if Mythic raiding an sich is actually hard. It's mostly about time investment and learning effects after dozens of wipes. If you want to raid Mythic, you can put aside the time for it, then you're certainly able to raid mythic.

In before: "not everyone is able to get world first man"