I don't think people realize how easy the raids will actually be.

[Kickbuttmario]

This isn't mean to be a "shit" post to Vanilla WoW. It has pros that vastly beat current WoW at (vice-versa as well).

I just wanted to quickly talk about this (before I go to bed too), because I know many are expecting awesome stuff from classic return. Dungeons, quests, slow leveling, the RPG aspect (basically the whole jazz) will be fun to return to. I do however, want to touch upon the raiding. I think the main reason why Vanilla raiding was so "fun and challenging" was because, for the most part, the game was new and people were new to this kind of stuff. It was a different game.

Preparing for raids, the farming, the 40 peoples, and so forth, were the hard part. The actual content, was never difficult. There was a post sometime ago by a fella here (He was from paragon world top guild, so he can vouch (hopefully)) that he actually thought that all of this content was doable with 20 players and the other 20 doing warm body stuff (standing there, being there for mechanics and so forth). And he said this for Sapphiron. Now imagine that when all 40 people are actually decently skilled, and have knowledge on the mechanics of vanilla wow raiding. Threat meters, debuff limits, rogues taking off poisons, all that jazz... It won't be too much.

The MC rehash that Blizzard did back in 2014 wasn't much of a success or a good incarnation and it's only because they dastardly overtuned the living crap out of it. I think Tanks were almost able to get 1 shotted at the time during the event (I died to a single hit from Ragnaros -_-).

Only wanted to add to this, but don't be surprised that once people get to 60, guilds start forming, raids get cleared quickly. As Noxious said, the real challenge will be the leveling and dungeons, while the raiding will be the part where easy stuff can happen.

[Deleted]

Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses

[Broken Fox]

Add difficulty tiers. That interferes with the doofus PURE VANILLA ONRY stance some have but whatever, it's more fun and adds longevity.

[Wiedzemir]

Add difficulty tiers. That interferes with the doofus PURE VANILLA ONRY stance some have but whatever, it's more fun and adds longevity.

It has nothing to do with "pure vanilla stance" the fact that the raids were the same for all is one of the reason I like vanilla. I hated the idea of difficulty tiers from the day one. And, in fact, one of the reasons I quit.

[Trickname]

Yea. People have this fantasy that Vanilla raids were far harder than today (probably just taken from the stories of the overturned C'thun fight). Sure prepping pots, res gear and gathering 40 people was time consuming but bosses were nowhere near as complex as today's.

Add difficulty tiers. That interferes with the doofus PURE VANILLA ONRY stance some have but whatever, it's more fun and adds longevity.

But that's exactly what has taken away from the excitement of raiding over time for some of us. It was a great feeling killing bosses without the 'great now I need to kill it on another difficulty' feeling. For me that's nothing to do with a 'pure vanilla stance' I'd be happy with live if there were only one or max two raid difficulties.

[Deleted]

Raiding will be a joke because 1) our current addons are OP AF and are much more advanced than addons used back in Vanilla, so they will carry hard 2) mechanics of raid bosses in Vanilla are a joke compared to current 5 man dungeon bosses

Big wigs is around since vanilla. All with countdowns, bars, notices. That won´t be new. Other addosn like decursive and the addon that cancelled heals on full targets (forget the name) were broken in classic but were much better for raiding.

And again, mechanics didn´t make the encounter hard nor do the today. It´s all about the numbers. As example look at Trillax now. Compare LFR to normal and HC. There are cakes, you have to eat the cakes. LFR? Doesnt matter. Normal? Doesnt matter. HC and mythic? wipe. Same with Maiden. In normal a side fucks up and you have 10 bombs? Doesn´t matter.

And then we have some bosses in vanilla with pretty hard numbers (DPS Check nefarian in Progress, mana/DPS on Patchwerk, Fire Rain on the widow, etc). On farm you can carry people like you can carry them now. In Progress with the slow gear Progression you dont want to do that.

And on top of all that, you had such a limited toolkit to deal with the mechanics. On alliance side our only AoE heal came from a priest. Pally/druid AoE healing was nonexistent. You had bosses like Veal, Huhuran with big AoE, so you better had priests. Onyixa/last boss spider wing with Fear/Stun on the heals while the boss continues damage? Put hots on the tank. Oh wait, only one set of hots could be on the tank. On nefarian we couldn´t even put hots on the tank because there was a limit on buffs. Hot the tank, flask falls off.

It is a hoax, that it was so easy and progress only took so long, because there were no addons and people were bad. In fact there were addons so OP they had to be broken and Elitist Jerks were around in classic too. So the knowledge of the game was pretty big back then. Progression was slow, because the toolkit was limited and outgearing wasn´t a thing. My prediction is, that the progress will be faster, but it will take month until we see Naxxramas clears.

[Dergiab]

If raids are so easy, why are "bad specs" (ret paladin, shadow priest, boomkim etc) actively discouraged?

If you don't care about topping the dps meter and only downing the boss, then specs wouldn't matter.

[Hottage]

Molten Core will probably be 10-15manned in the first few weeks, it was balanced with almost half the raid being dead weight anyway.

After that some of the bosses will be cock-blocks, most will be cake walks.

I think the real "skill" will only start showing up with AQ40/Naxx.

[Deleted]

Big wigs is around since vanilla. All with countdowns, bars, notices. That won´t be new. Other addosn like decursive and the addon that cancelled heals on full targets (forget the name) were broken in classic but were much better for raiding.

And again, mechanics didn´t make the encounter hard nor do the today. It´s all about the numbers. As example look at Trillax now. Compare LFR to normal and HC. There are cakes, you have to eat the cakes. LFR? Doesnt matter. Normal? Doesnt matter. HC and mythic? wipe. Same with Maiden. In normal a side fucks up and you have 10 bombs? Doesn´t matter.

And then we have some bosses in vanilla with pretty hard numbers (DPS Check nefarian in Progress, mana/DPS on Patchwerk, Fire Rain on the widow, etc). On farm you can carry people like you can carry them now. In Progress with the slow gear Progression you dont want to do that.

And on top of all that, you had such a limited toolkit to deal with the mechanics. On alliance side our only AoE heal came from a priest. Pally/druid AoE healing was nonexistent. You had bosses like Veal, Huhuran with big AoE, so you better had priests. Onyixa/last boss spider wing with Fear/Stun on the heals while the boss continues damage? Put hots on the tank. Oh wait, only one set of hots could be on the tank. On nefarian we couldn´t even put hots on the tank because there was a limit on buffs. Hot the tank, flask falls off.

It is a hoax, that it was so easy and progress only took so long, because there were no addons and people were bad. In fact there were addons so OP they had to be broken and Elitist Jerks were around in classic too. So the knowledge of the game was pretty big back then. Progression was slow, because the toolkit was limited and outgearing wasn´t a thing. My prediction is, that the progress will be faster, but it will take month until we see Naxxramas clears.

But you have weak auras and shit now to display different things, not only cooldowns but also to guide you in the fight.
Not only that, but players back then were trash compared to now. We, as the playerbase, have gotten TONS better at the game.
People didn't even understand how good +hit was on casters or melee. It wasn't until years later people understood +hit was the #1 prio until cap.
With the amount of knowledge/theorycrafting around these days, optimal rotations and optimal gear will be known from the get-go which will improve your raid DPS by a lot.
We had hunters take rogue daggers (non agi ones) because they didn't know better - There will be askmrrobot etc.

[Deleted]

Molten Core will probably be 10-15manned in the first few weeks, it was balanced with almost half the raid being dead weight anyway.

After that some of the bosses will be cock-blocks, most will be cake walks.

I think the real "skill" will only start showing up with AQ40/Naxx.

Id like to see the group 10 manning MC with only pre-bis if even that. 2 tanking is barley viable on most bosses due to long lasting buffs and dots, having only 2 healers in MC will make them go OOM before the the boss even reaches 90% and the dps you bring won't have a chance on pushing the numbers untill healers are OOM. Problem being threat, you can't burst dps and have to take breaks to let tanks get threat back, this will empty healers mana since the fights where not designed to be smashed in seconds like they are today when running project 60.

Did MC recently (1 year or so back) on kronos and i think most that say this will be super EZ have not actually done the fights or not in 10 years. They are easyer then current content for sure, but there is still a matter of fucking up on 10 min boss fights that can wipe a whole group. And statisticly speaking of the player base, not that many did raiding back in the day, bullrushing it won't be a high probability for most, maybe 1-2 guilds can do it but most will struggle with it.

[Citano]

Molten Core will probably be 10-15manned in the first few weeks, it was balanced with almost half the raid being dead weight anyway.

Maybe 30-35 manned but heavily doubt as much as 10-15 manned. If we go way back with the content patch (like 1.2) then itemization from leveling and dungeons will be very limited.

After that some of the bosses will be cock-blocks, most will be cake walks.

For sure, but one of the reasons why it will be alot of cake walk is not about skills or gear but about the amount of consumables you can use.
Like for casters with flasks and multiple elixirs you can easily more than double your damage. Same for melee in terms of sharpening stones, juju power, elixirs (agility + mongoose) etc. If it had the same battle/guardian consumable system from live (that they had since patch 2.1) then it would be different.
Then again it's classic people want and not a modified vanilla so we run with the pros and the cons.

I think the real "skill" will only start showing up with AQ40/Naxx.

A thing that really wasn't something people bothered with back then until maybe Sunwell in TBC, was speed runs.
Sure, people heard of the Axemen who did a quick MC clear for being 2005 skills but there was little interests of this in general at all for vanilla.
Same for personal records on bosses. There was no raid logs in vanilla and the first ones came in end of TBC. People instead just snapshotted screenshots of damage meters ingame for numbers back then.

[Deleted]

The issue with vanilla raids is getting 40 people with decent gear. Gear drops were extremely scarce in Vanilla. We are getting about 1 item per 5 people right now, back in vanilla you had a 40man boss drop 2-3 items, many of which were useless because they were horribly itemized.

- - - Updated - - -



Good luck getting past Vaelastrasz with 15 people in dungeon gear.

Even garr in pre-bis is a shit show on a epic scale, don't think he is doable with dungeon gear and less then 30 ppl unless they are nehilium joining the fight once more

[Deleted]

Id like to see the group 10 manning MC with only pre-bis if even that. 2 tanking is barley viable on most bosses due to long lasting buffs and dots, having only 2 healers in MC will make them go OOM before the the boss even reaches 90% and the dps you bring won't have a chance on pushing the numbers untill healers are OOM. Problem being threat, you can't burst dps and have to take breaks to let tanks get threat back, this will empty healers mana since the fights where not designed to be smashed in seconds like they are today when running project 60.

Did MC recently (1 year or so back) on kronos and i think most that say this will be super EZ have not actually done the fights or not in 10 years. They are easyer then current content for sure, but there is still a matter of fucking up on 10 min boss fights that can wipe a whole group. And statisticly speaking of the player base, not that many did raiding back in the day, bullrushing it won't be a high probability for most, maybe 1-2 guilds can do it but most will struggle with it.

The raids werent balanced for 40 players. The majority of the time people were AFK or died in the start because they were shit, but we still downed bosses with 20 people alive for over half the fight easily. Even Naxx was like this, it didn't require 40 super invested people to down most bosses.

[MMKing]

Garr 15, 20 or even 25 man xD

Not without BWL+ gear you don't.

[Deleted]

Garr 15, 20 or even 25 man xD

Not without BWL+ gear you don't.

You realize some classes did double the damage of others, right? It wasn't like now where most classes are within 5-10%.
With the right setup and full load of consumables, I wouldn't be surprised at all that it was cleared first week with very few people.

[Deleted]

But you have weak auras and shit now to display different things, not only cooldowns but also to guide you in the fight.

We had that too. Don´t remember if it was already power auras or if this addon came in TBC, but i had my Death Wish timer and a lot of Debuffs right next to my char.

Not only that, but players back then were trash compared to now. We, as the playerbase, have gotten TONS better at the game.
People didn't even understand how good +hit was on casters or melee. It wasn't until years later people understood +hit was the #1 prio until cap.
With the amount of knowledge/theorycrafting around these days, optimal rotations and optimal gear will be known from the get-go which will improve your raid DPS by a lot.
We had hunters take rogue daggers (non agi ones) because they didn't know better - There will be askmrrobot etc.

I played slam fury (1-hander rage build up, 2-hander slam till empty), weapon skill dagger heroic strike warrior (damn threat was an issue). I knew that glancing blows were a thing. And all in my guild did. So now "the playerbase" in general was not shit. Yes, everything was a hunter weapon, but our Hunters ran with the good gear. So did everyone else (rings from maraudon or trinkets frm BRD were bis till the got rid of the % stats and replaced it with rating). There were bis lists in classic too.

[potis]

We had that too. Don´t remember if it was already power auras or if this addon came in TBC, but i had my Death Wish timer and a lot of Debuffs right next to my char.



I played slam fury (1-hander rage build up, 2-hander slam till empty), weapon skill dagger heroic strike warrior (damn threat was an issue). I knew that glancing blows were a thing. And all in my guild did. So now "the playerbase" in general was not shit. Yes, everything was a hunter weapon, but our Hunters ran with the good gear. So did everyone else (rings from maraudon or trinkets frm BRD were bis till the got rid of the % stats and replaced it with rating). There were bis lists in classic too.

If you knew this stuff you werent in the "playerbase" of back then he is talking about.

[Deleted]

We had that too. Don´t remember if it was already power auras or if this addon came in TBC, but i had my Death Wish timer and a lot of Debuffs right next to my char.



I played slam fury (1-hander rage build up, 2-hander slam till empty), weapon skill dagger heroic strike warrior (damn threat was an issue). I knew that glancing blows were a thing. And all in my guild did. So now "the playerbase" in general was not shit. Yes, everything was a hunter weapon, but our Hunters ran with the good gear. So did everyone else (rings from maraudon or trinkets frm BRD were bis till the got rid of the % stats and replaced it with rating). There were bis lists in classic too.

LMAO you are in denial if you don't think addons are shit tons more advanced now than what we used back then. Even top guilds didn't have amazing addons to carry their ass like today. See weak auras vs archimonde as an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6ipbVOWvY

I really don't care about your snowflake build, it's a fact people didn't realize how to properly gear their character for a long time. There just wasn't as much information/theorycrafting/guides or general help to get as there is now.

There wasn't simcraft, there wasn't wordloflogs etc.

[potis]

LMAO you are in denial if you don't think addons are shit tons more advanced now than what we used back then. Even top guilds didn't have amazing addons to carry their ass like today. See weak auras vs archimonde as an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6ipbVOWvY

I really don't care about your snowflake build, it's a fact people didn't realize how to properly gear their character for a long time. There just wasn't as much information/theorycrafting/guides or general help to get as there is now.

There were, they werent known.

Elitist jerks forums were all the few top guilds gathered to discuss specs, its were "Slow weapon Hemo rogue" was "discovered" along with "Demo shout 5/5 is a must cause mobs have base AP even in Naxxramas and do insanely low dmg because of it." because thats how the engine worked. Base AP-->Multipliers, lower Base AP-->Lul multiplier-->low dmg.

MMO-Champion was also the elitist jerks of TBC, until the datamining started and we have todays MMO-Champion, the Bronies, the personal-bloggers in offtopic and all sorts of clueless tards.

[Deleted]

If you knew this stuff you werent in the "playerbase" of back then he is talking about.

That might be true, but i guess the players getting first kills in vanilla were much closer to "my playerbase" than to "hunters going for strength playerbase" and still were locked on progress for a long time. And I´m pretty sure theses players did get songflower buffs, did Juju raids, collected Hakkar hearts and Dragon Heads and still didn´t match the numbers Patchwerk needed.

We can argue that the average player now has more addons, more insight and more external tools, but the average player doesn´t get the first kills and won´t get the first kills on the new server.

And as long we don´t know which patch the server will run, we can´t even guess the time needed to clear MC/Ony/BWL. Will we get Diremaul gear from the start? Is ZG/AQ already in the game? Are the Skillbooks in the game? These three things will shorten progress a lot.

LMAO you are in denial if you don't think addons are shit tons more advanced now than what we used back then. Even top guilds didn't have amazing addons to carry their ass like today. See weak auras vs archimonde as an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6ipbVOWvY

Are you talking about the Weak Aura that was build in ERT the very next ID? Yes it is great. Was it needed? Dont think so. Take a look at a kill two days later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIJQsDaInU (btw around 1:30, thats xpearl unitframes. Classic addon )

You want examples of super broken Addons?
Decursive - automatic smart dispells as soon as you hit a button. No need to see the debuff. The addon got rid of it
HealBot - the same thing with added heals
QuickHeal -https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/project-2800

Weak Auras tries to copy but can´t even compete with AVR http://www.wowinterface.com/download...16249-AVR.html (yes, not vanilla, i know, but WA isn´t over the top)
we got bossmods, raidframes, CDTracker, buff tracker, Debuff tracker. Everything was there.

I really don't care about your snowflake build, it's a fact people didn't realize how to properly gear their character for a long time. There just wasn't as much information/theorycrafting/guides or general help to get as there is now.

There wasn't simcraft, there wasn't wordloflogs etc.

So you think the playerbase sims their chars? Or even checks wol in detail? They read guides. They go to forums and ask. And forums aren´t a new thing