Class Balancing... no thanks

[Zenfoldor]

When I started in vanilla I asked in the undead area general chat which characters were best in PvP?

Some guy said this:

Undead Rogue or Tauren Shaman

My friend made a Tauren Shaman and I made an Undead Rogue.

The rest is history.

IIRC, most of our damage came from eviscerate, which didn't scale well with gear, but also meant we could pvp quite well with no gear on at all.

I remember those Barman Shanker runs, good times. Finally when I got into raiding, I got the dagger off the second boss in BWL and it was epic. Then some time later I got Perditions Blade. The speed of the dagger was not normalized then so damage was a direct reflection of dagger damage and speed(slower the better in the mainhand).

I'm just recalling this from memory, much of it may be wrong, but those were fun times.

[Deleted]

When I started in vanilla I asked in the undead area general chat which characters were best in PvP?

Some guy said this:

Undead Rogue or Tauren Shaman

My friend made a Tauren Shaman and I made an Undead Rogue.

The rest is history.

IIRC, most of our damage came from eviscerate, which didn't scale well with gear, but also meant we could pvp quite well with no gear on at all.

I remember those Barman Shanker runs, good times. Finally when I got into raiding, I got the dagger off the second boss in BWL and it was epic. Then some time later I got Perditions Blade. The speed of the dagger was not normalized then so damage was a direct reflection of dagger damage and speed(slower the better in the mainhand).

I'm just recalling this from memory, much of it may be wrong, but those were fun times.

Oh look a rouge happy with his class choice whoopy......

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I actually would like to see the stats as well. I am still waiting to see someone come here and say: "You know what I loved about vanilla? Being the guild Night fall bitch in my enhancement shammy."

I do think there's a correlation most of those who agree with me that let slip what they played were mainly other paladins, alot of shammans and druids.

[Deleted]

I considered our paladin providing seals and blessings as support in our raid class back those days...

OK you're right in this regard, but this is nothing compared to the support classes in LOTRO. The support provided by these classes there was great. Burglars provided debuffs and could reliably initiate group combos, which had a huge effect on either dps or survivability, captains provided incredible buffs, and loremasters have been helpful with debuffs and also have been mana batteries. Captains and loremasters also have been viable support tanks or healers in raids, and could fully tank or heal in 3 or 6 man groups. This kind of balancing puts WoW to shame. And I have quite enjoyed to play my loremaster at max level in raids at that time (expansion before Rohan).

Edit: My level 60 characters in Classic have been mage (main) and rogue, and I also dabbled in holy priest as healer, but never got to 60 with that character. In TBC I added a resto druid at max level and dabbled in many other alts. Fully started playing alts in WotLK though, with mage, rogue, disc healer and blood DK tank, paladin healer + tank and such. So I cannot really comment on the state of support classes in Classic, except what I heard from a friend who was raiding hardcore in AQ40 etc.

[Lolsteak]

Last one I saw they gave u free t3 and level 60 on char creation so I'm not taking anything from pirates seriously

Yeah.. Live gives you a free char boost and welfare epics so..

[Millyraynge]

Just out of curiosity, the ones asking for balance changes, do you also disagree with the notion of fire elementals being immune to fire damage, so you can't play Fire spec as a mage when raiding MC for instance?

to be forced to play frost in mc and bwl is very classic, so it's welcome

[Deleted]

Again you're making completely incorrect assumptions about other people. You should really accept that your knowledge is extremely limited. My 14 year old memories are of much older games, which I still play and enjoy greatly on emulators. So that pretty much destroys your point and credibility.

So let's get this straight: you don't play private servers but you have memories of Vanilla more recent than when it was retail? How were these memories obtained? Did professor Snape teach you how to use the Pensieve Harry?

[Spaze]

So let's get this straight: you don't play private servers but you have memories of Vanilla more recent than when it was retail? How were these memories obtained? Did professor Snape teach you how to use the Pensieve Harry?

hahahaha ah good one i like this thread more and more

[Deleted]

to be forced to play frost in mc and bwl is very classic, so it's welcome

It's quite classic to be forced to heal as pala, priest, druid or shaman as well.

[Deleted]

Yeah.. Live gives you a free char boost and welfare epics so..

At least you have to pay for it. And it's not the best gear available.

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It's quite classic to be forced to heal as pala, priest, druid or shaman as well.

The classic expirance is similar to the experience in a North Korean work camp. All decent in views will be punished and you will be forced to do thing you don't want to.

Mabie there pro vanilla people have Stockholm syndrome?

[Millyraynge]

So let's get this straight: you don't play private servers but you have memories of Vanilla more recent than when it was retail? How were these memories obtained? Did professor Snape teach you how to use the Pensieve Harry?

The problem is, that private servers have the same place value like 14 years old memories. There isn't a single perfect build on the market which reflects the original experience of vanilla. Most of the servers are more or less rebuild on memories. There are indeed very accurate servers around, but mostly not very well received (especially because of the missing comfort). I had characters on different classic realms and I found a real close one to the original state, but the developement of this server took and still takes ages (in terms of content releases for example). Background mechanics are very hard to adjust, because in vanilla times nearly everything was unexplored in terms of theorycrafting/background mechanics/attack table/in-depth stat science etc. (real big breakthroughs happend firstly in burning crusade). This is why the character power on private servers mostly does not reflect the original niveau. A lot of in-depth information about vanilla is forgotten / not provable anymore.

the old weaponskill mechanic for example took a very big chunk of time for us to rebuild it and proof it on my beloved vanilla server. Not because we dont had the formulas, but because the devs of the servers wanted the proof that it worked this way in vanilla too. Fact is, that no one had known until dec 06 / jan 07 how weapon skill actually worked until some EJ cracks figured something out after a lot of testing (around bc release).

[Spaze]

It's quite classic to be forced to heal as pala, priest, druid or shaman as well.

with your mage you can change specs in other dungeons and raids is that possible with palas for example?
naaaaaa

[Deleted]

Again you're making completely incorrect assumptions about other people. You should really accept that your knowledge is extremely limited. My 14 year old memories are of much older games, which I still play and enjoy greatly on emulators. So that pretty much destroys your point and credibility.

So let me translate this.
Your saying "you wrong and you should acknowledge your stupid because I say so, my old memory of different games is some how relevant and that proves my point so well your point is now redundant"

....... Lol

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with your mage you can change specs in other dungeons and raids is that possible with palas for example
naaaaaa

Nope. Pala only had 1 working spec. I rember getting laughed out of 5 man's for trying to join as ret.

Also changing spec wasn't cheep at all. That could quickly get to costing 50g a time alot of cash back then

[Deleted]

The problem is, that private servers have the same place value like 14 years old memories. There isn't a single perfect build on the market which reflects the original experience of vanilla. Most of the servers are more or less rebuild on memories. There are indeed very accurate servers around, but mostly not very well received (especially because of the missing comfort). I had characters on different classic realms and I found a real close one to the original state, but the developement of this server took and still takes ages (in terms of content releases for example). Background mechanics are very hard to adjust, because in vanilla times nearly everything was unexplored in terms of theorycrafting/background mechanics/attack table/in-depth stat science etc. (real big breakthroughs happend firstly in burning crusade). This is why the character power on private servers mostly does not reflect the original niveau. A lot of in-depth information about vanilla is forgotten / not provable anymore.

No, they still have more value. Just not as much value as if private servers were 100% blizzlike. So in regards to discussing classic, they are the best we have. 100% blizzlike is impossible as not even Blizzard has the memories to produce that and no one is discussing it.

[Deleted]

The problem is, that private servers have the same place value like 14 years old memories. There isn't a single perfect build on the market which reflects the original experience of vanilla. Most of the servers are more or less rebuild on memories. There are indeed very accurate servers around, but mostly not very well received (especially because of the missing comfort). I had characters on different classic realms and I found a real close one to the original state, but the developement of this server took and still takes ages (in terms of content releases for example). Background mechanics are very hard to adjust, because in vanilla times nearly everything was unexplored in terms of theorycrafting/background mechanics/attack table/in-depth stat science etc. (real big breakthroughs happend firstly in burning crusade). This is why the character power on private servers mostly does not reflect the original niveau. A lot of in-depth information about vanilla is forgotten / not provable anymore.

the old weaponskill mechanic for example took a very big chunk of time for us to rebuild it quite accurate on my beloved vanilla server. Not because we dont have the formulas, but because the devs of the servers want the proof that it worked this way in vanilla too.

So basically those who play on private servers and think that's what vanilla was don't actually know what vanilla was as I suspected

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No, they still have more value. Just not as much value as if private servers were 100% blizzlike. So in regards to discussing classic, they are the best we have. 100% blizzlike is impossible as not even Blizzard has the memories to produce that and no one is discussing it.

Less value as there not vanilla. There imperfect imitations and as classic is supposed to be about full filling some hipsters fantasy's I'd say there top knots and neck beards would curl to know it wasn't of equal value

[Deleted]

with your mage you can change specs in other dungeons and raids is that possible with palas for example?
naaaaaa

5-mans were much faster with prot pala when comparing to prot warrior.

[Deleted]

Less value as there not vanilla. There imperfect imitations and as classic is supposed to be about full filling some hipsters fantasy's I'd say there top knots and neck beards would curl to know it wasn't of equal value

Ahh so they have less value...That must be why Blizzard are making Classic from their 14 year old memories and not working with the Nostalrius team.

They probably would curl, but you don't appear to be one of them, so stop arguing on their behalf. It makes your opinion as worthless as the crumbs on their neck beards.

[HordeFanboy]

with your mage you can change specs in other dungeons and raids is that possible with palas for example?
naaaaaa

You havent played vanilla then because prot palas werent bad in 5-mans.

[strifemon]

I can't even imagine how would they be able to tailor some balance changes in an existing game without actually ruining it OR turning into something not even close to the origins
Let say, blizz have added taunt to paladins' toolkit, so they are now able to actually perform as raid tanks. The next day pala tanks would realize that there's kinda no gear for them, because to be a successful tank they need way more stats then warriors do. I mean except all standard def stats + melee hit they also need some int, spellpower, spell hit. So blizzard would want to please them and will begin to make some itemization changes, putting sp and int on tanking gear or creating some new items. After that palas will probably say something like: "If we are allowed to tank as palas, so why the hell don't we have tier for tanking?". Okay, blizz would react to this aswell and they will replace the actual tier pieces dropping with tokens, which you will be able to exchange... you see what i mean, yeah ?

Probably this was something like "the worst case scenario".
Besides that, if you demand class balance for raids, would you also want some changes so all classes can farm equally? Do u guys remember frost mages' levelling\silithus farming? I was so jealous about it with my hybrid druid.

Also some people here hope that those servers will be progressive, with tbc later on, etc. If balance changes would be made now these will probably make impossible to move to tbc, won't it ? They will have to review all of this changes and try to adopt to TBC, wich I believe would close to impossible, ontop of implementing new changes, since there for sure will be people who will demand changes to TBC balance.

[Sigxy]

I considered our paladin providing seals and blessings as support in our raid class back those days...

Problem is that all specs could bring in the same stuff. Retribution could provide nothing special which Tanks (also getting Blessing of Kings & Sanctuary) and Healers already could give.

Edit: Nevermind, forgot Blessing of light was for not just healers. But Tanks did get 2 blessings in their tree.

[david0925]

Problem is that all specs could bring in the same stuff. Retribution could provide nothing special which Tanks (also getting Blessing of Kings) and Healers (also getting Blessing of Light) already could give.

uh, I'm pretty sure BoK is the 31 point Retribution talent, unless im missing the context of this conversation? Prot had Sanctuary not kings.