Naxxramas 60 vs Naxxramas 80 difficulty?

[nocendi]

Was Naxx 60 harder than it's 80 counterpart? Yes. Is Naxx 60 a difficult raid by today's standards? No.

Sounds like you didn't play Naxx 60.

Or you don't understand the difference between difficulty and complexity.

[Osmeric]

The sad part being, he actually drove away the people who liked the same sort of game as him, and replaced WoW population with those who hated it. Can't really have any sympathy for him about that, it was as self-inflicted as it comes, and he ruined the game I liked in the process..

It's a hardcore lie that hardcores were ever the audience it had. No, they were always a minority, and were always going to be a minority.

- - - Updated - - -

We should all remember his famous Dungeons are hard comment. (It was him right?)

Yes indeed.

Really? Well I guess it was a test raid in terms of how hard modes worked. Normal difficulty on 10man I felt was great, the hardmodes were a lot of fun for me. Firefighter was intense!

https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...26343815061504
https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...58160539181056

[Sylvaeres]

Thank you for explaining everything we knew 8 or so years ago. Naxx25 is easy. In other news, water is wet.

[Akka]

It's a hardcore lie that hardcores were ever the audience it had. No, they were always a minority, and were always going to be a minority.

Your view of global ensembles are still as simplistic and shortsighted as before.
*sigh*

[Bryntrollian]

I recall clearing Naxx while still wearing Sunwell gear

[khalltusk]

It's a hardcore lie that hardcores were ever the audience it had. No, they were always a minority, and were always going to be a minority.

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Yes indeed.


https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...26343815061504
https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...58160539181056

Thats a real shame =[

Not unexpected considering Ulduar was way more difficult than ulduar without hardmodes. It was a great raid but and I liked its difficulty with hardmodes included but can understand why it had issues with participation.

I've not checked in with you in a while Osmeric will you be playing classic or avoiding it like a plague?

[Bigbazz]

Looking at this more simply, taking Naxx40 out of the equation, wrath Naxx was just an easy raid in general, especially without hardmodes. At least we had Sarth+3 drake to do at the time. Most of the people I raided with at that time had never done naxx40, or just the first few bosses. They weren't drawing off any sort of past experience. Just overall was pretty easy regardless of past exp. Ofc this is just one personal anecdote, nothing all that factual. Doing the Immortal and the rest of the meta otoh...well that was annoying, lol. Often just dcs and input lag that ruined most weeks, or chaining ice tombs. Or thaddius sillyness

Non-hard mode Ulduar was basically the same way, lot of guilds on my server cleared it in the first couple of weeks like Naxx. Hard mode was quite the treat though and its own beast.

Ulduar was nothing like Naxx in difficulty, go look at the large line up of nerfs that happened in the first weeks. Razerscale got nerfed after the first night of Ulduar's release and it didn't have a hard mode. Ulduar was probably 2-3x more difficult than Naxx tuning wise, without considering hard modes, I also recall a lot of guilds going back to Ulduar after TOTC came out (which was super easy like Naxx on normal mode) so they could kill Yogg with better gear.

Ulduar was somewhere along the lines of Nighthold Heroic difficulty before hardmodes (which were equivalent to mythic), if you consider both at relevant times. And probably Ulduar was a little tougher than that on launch, because some of the earlier bosses were overtuned in Ulduar (and later nerfed).

The fact that Ulduar was such a massive increase in difficulty over Naxx is probably why they rushed out TOTC with Normal/Heroic and made the normal mode easy like Naxx again, and then with ICC they took a step back from super easy and made ICC closer to Ulduar difficulty but with the raid buff giving a progressive nerf over time.

[Akka]

Thats a real shame =[

Not unexpected considering Ulduar was way more difficult than ulduar without hardmodes. It was a great raid but and I liked its difficulty with hardmodes included but can understand why it had issues with participation.

The real reasons Ulduar had low participation were three :

1) The massive dumbing down of the game at all levels meant that people weren't ready to actually raid and were shoved into Ulduar.
People who weren't even interested in raid ended up there because the GC team was so obsessed to make everyone see content that they pushed them all into raids.
WotLK was the first example of the failure of the new model, shoving everyone into "the latest raid" while leaving behind the non-instancied game, and causing long content drought while at the same time killing current raids too soon through catch-up. Ulduar was the biggest victim of all that.

2) Leviathan was a very weird fight (very easy but very weird, so many people felt just lost) and the early fights were initially quite overtuned (Ignis pre-nerf was certainly a whole new level).

3) Ulduar lfetime was MUCH too short. It was released in half april, ToC was released early august. That's less than four monthes before becoming irrelevant (due to, as said in 1), the shitty new design philosophy making "the latest raid" the only current content).
To put it into perspective, Naxx60 (famous for having its life being cut short by the release of TBC happening Too Soon®, before it could really be explorer by high-end but non-cutting edge guilds) was nearly six monthes, from late june 2006 to early december 2006. That's between half more to double the lifetime of Ulduar.

[Sencha]

Naxx 80 was plain easy even if you didn't know how Naxx 60 worked.

[khalltusk]

The real reasons Ulduar had low participation were three :

1) The massive dumbing down of the game at all levels meant that people weren't ready to actually raid and were shoved into Ulduar.
People who weren't even interested in raid ended up there because the GC team was so obsessed to make everyone see content that they pushed them all into raids.
WotLK was the first example of the failure of the new model, shoving everyone into "the latest raid" while leaving behind the non-instancied game, and causing long content drought while at the same time killing current raids too soon through catch-up. Ulduar was the biggest victim of all that.

2) Leviathan was a very weird fight (very easy but very weird, so many people felt just lost) and the early fights were initially quite overtuned (Ignis pre-nerf was certainly a whole new level).

3) Ulduar lfetime was MUCH too short. It was released in half april, ToC was released early august. That's less than four monthes before becoming irrelevant (due to, as said in 1), the shitty new design philosophy making "the latest raid" the only current content).
To put it into perspective, Naxx60 (famous for having its life being cut short by the release of TBC happening Too Soon®, before it could really be explorer by high-end but non-cutting edge guilds) was nearly six monthes, from late june 2006 to early december 2006. That's between half more to double the lifetime of Ulduar.

Yes I remember when ToTc was being released. We had downed all but yogg 0 on 10man and on 25man we were working on Thorim hardmode before going onto firefighter. However you have to remember ToTC only really affected ulduar once it was fully released. The bosses were time gated on release first week only the beasts were available. But it did have an effect for sure. Having it with 4 different difficulties that were not sharing a lockout was also a killer. Our guild was doing 4 a week and then only having one boss to progress on for ToTc (25man anub heroic was horrible compared to the rest of the raid). It's what made me quit the game as I just burned out. Ulduars lifespan was for sure cut short after ToTc came out in full.

Catchup during Wrath did not kill raids, far from it. The pug scene in Wrath exploded and the catch up gear from badges was limited to the 10man versions of gear if I remember rightly. People were still pugging Nax and ToTc and Maly during ICC. Only Ulduar was avoided most of the time due to the way the encounters were setup.

I will agree on Levi being an oddball fight. Fun as hell and could be duo'd with the right gear.

[RoKPaNda]

The trash in Naxx alone would give people a headache. Would raiders today beat Naxx? Yes. Not as easily as some people think, but they'd do it. The same works in reverse though. Classic raiders would eventually clear today's raids after a small adjustment period. I mean you're almost comparing two entirely different games.

[Jueles]

[QUOTE=Vaelorian;48052041]Why does everyone forget to mention that instructor razuvious was a lot more harder then the 80 counterpart.
You had to have shadowpriests mindcontrolling. No orbs... You actually had your holy priests respect to shadow. Not only that... they had to grind +hit gear in order to keep the MC. Then you had this blast of him or his understudies that emptied the mana of the poor fellow caught in it. And you did not want that to happen. So you had to LoS the blast. Also you needed to rotate the understudies in MC. MC was only possible for a X amount of time for an understudy before he became immune... then a tank needed to pick him up so the cooldown could dissipate for another round of MC, meanwhile that tank would get another understudy.

[QUOTE]

I had totally forgot about this! I seem to recall staying holy and did the MC, with a rotation, since we had 4 priest in the raid, but I can't vouch that my memory is correct. Those were the days Naxx 60 was challenging back in the day for us average raiders - but we did clear it.

[Deleted]

Gear was also a big factor. People had much better gear in Wrath than they did in Vanilla when going into Nax.

Nihilum cleared Naxx in wrath with some sunwell gear they used to level with, so no. Gear was irrelevant, naxx in wrath was just a complete joke.

My guild did it too btw.

[Akka]

However you have to remember ToTC only really affected ulduar once it was fully released.

Nope, because dungeons started to drop emblems allowing to get Ulduar gear, making it obsolete.

Catchup during Wrath did not kill raids, far from it.

Don't know from which world you come, because in mine they sure did.

[khalltusk]

Nope, because dungeons started to drop emblems allowing to get Ulduar gear, making it obsolete.

Don't know from which world you come, because in mine they sure did.

Your opinion then I guess? As the pug scene was exploding in Wrath from what I saw and from what others said too. The gear from catchup was inferior to the current tier. There is an argument to be made that it hindered the previous tier however as you say. Other than that raids in general were seeing more people do them than previously in TBC/Vanilla from what blizzard were saying later in wrath.

Did they make mistakes? I think they did, they needed more time between Ulduar and ToTC.

[Holdodlig]

Wrath naxx was really easy, like every starter raids of WotLK. If you look at some server first, you'll notice that people were able to clear the raid with only 15 people at a low heroic dungeon ilevel.

[Chaelexi]

What made Naxx 60 so damn hard was:
1) The need for 40 people
2) Attrition (and yeah, more people also means more attrition)
3) The need for 6 (but realistically 8) geared tanks, several properly geared priests, and generally properly geared everyone
4) Naxx was only live for 6 months before the expansion hit, at a time when the raiding population was very low. I remember every recruit we got was undergeared and underexperienced.

All these things contributed to ensuring very few guilds completed it. Not saying it was "easy", but the organisational aspect was a much bigger factor than the difficulty.

I will admit I was lucky to be in a big end game guild with minimal turnover. but many of these things are spot on but you missed a big one, this was one of the first raids where most of the fights had personal responsibility and one mistake was game over and many fights. Also this was when perfect execution did not mean a boss kill because things could turn south fast from a parried attack causing a double strike on a tank on a couple of bosses.

[D3athsting]

Never done wotlk naxx when it wasn't trivial content (i did Naxx40 instead) but from what i've heard/seen it's a watered down ez mode version of one of the hardest raids that alas was released too close to tbc and when many non-hardcore raiding guilds were progressing into Aq40, having only 3 kills in Naxx40 is one of my greatest regrets in wow together with being unsubbed during ulduar

[Akka]

Your opinion then I guess? As the pug scene was exploding in Wrath from what I saw and from what others said too.

PuG being able to faceroll outdated content and the destruction of progression by making all but the last raid obsolete, were the very definition of killing raids to me.

The gear from catchup was inferior to the current tier.

No it wasn't. It was the exact same ilvl, and in fact you could even have SET GEAR via emblem. And the off-set pieces. And the off-hand weapon. And jewels.
The only raid-exclusive gear were the 25-men set pieces.

There is an argument to be made that it hindered the previous tier however as you say. Other than that raids in general were seeing more people do them than previously in TBC/Vanilla from what blizzard were saying later in wrath.

That's more to do with nothing outside instances being relevant, not obsolete, fun to play or even requiring a pulse, than it is to making raiding actually better.
In fact it's the moment the game became boring, because "WoW" became "last raid tier", with automated progression and just a few rooms in which to kill boss until the next release, where the rooms would change.

Never done wotlk naxx when it wasn't trivial content

Like everyone else.
There is no time in WoW where Naxx80 wasn't trivial content

[khalltusk]

PuG being able to faceroll outdated content and the destruction of progression by making all but the last raid obsolete, were the very definition of killing raids to me.

No it wasn't. It was the exact same ilvl, and in fact you could even have SET GEAR via emblem. And the off-set pieces. And the off-hand weapon. And jewels.
The only raid-exclusive gear were the 25-men set pieces.

That's more to do with nothing outside instances being relevant, not obsolete, fun to play or even requiring a pulse, than it is to making raiding actually better.
In fact it's the moment the game became boring, because "WoW" became "last raid tier", with automated progression and just a few rooms in which to kill boss until the next release, where the rooms would change.

Like everyone else.
There is no time in WoW where Naxx80 wasn't trivial content

My memory was a bit fuzzy, I thought when the emblem gear came out it was set to the previous tier and not current? I do think I mentioned it being set to 10man or something as 25man seemed to be requiring you to go into the raid rather than gather badges.

As for your thoughts on what killed raiding, we can agree to disagree there. I think in general it was good for pugs and my guild had no struggles to raid and progression was mostly fine, aside Ulduars last few hard modes on 25man. If they had given it a couple more months that would have been ideal.