Havoc DH tier set just got nerfed back to 15% haste on PTR...

[kaelleria]

Nah, they're not gonna buff us. They didn't touch us last tier, why should they start now?

Yes they did...

We got a 3% across the board damage buff on September 12th.

[Creepercat]

Yes they did...

We got a 3% across the board damage buff on September 12th.

The context is important. The 3% buff was for the compensation to netherlight crucible. All the classes who's artifact ilvl weren't as strong got slight buffs for compensation.

[Veiled Shadow]

The context is important. The 3% buff was for the compensation to netherlight crucible. All the classes who's artifact ilvl weren't as strong got slight buffs for compensation.

The buffs were done in lieu of both factors (poor scaling with weapon ilevel, and general mediocrity). Havoc certainly isn't one of the specs that has poor scaling with weapon ilevel, so it stands to reason that they were done in view of the latter.

[Auberdeen]

Maining a DH is now laughable if you are a raider. sadly.

why do you say this?

DH is OP as fk still and just because a BETA stat got reverted simply means it was too much! just because we get ridiculous things and then they get taken away doesnt make it "laughable", just simply "in-line" with the other classes.

we all know DH will still be above the rest

[kaelleria]

why do you say this?

DH is OP as fk still and just because a BETA stat got reverted simply means it was too much! just because we get ridiculous things and then they get taken away doesnt make it "laughable", just simply "in-line" with the other classes.

we all know DH will still be above the rest

Not quite sure what galaxy you've been living in for the last tier, but DH is nowhere near OP.

[Creepercat]

The buffs were done in lieu of both factors (poor scaling with weapon ilevel, and general mediocrity). Havoc certainly isn't one of the specs that has poor scaling with weapon ilevel, so it stands to reason that they were done in view of the latter.

My point still stands. I have a feeling that they're not going to buff us any time soon.

why do you say this?

DH is OP as fk still

You're surely joking. ?????

[NecroVane]

Whats important to note, is that the t19-t20 transition was essentially the same build just switching set bonuses. However, with t21, we need to play an entirely different spec to even hope to achieve any semblance of benefit from the t21 bonuses(if you aren't playing demonic these set bonuses become even more hilariously tragic,even to the point of being worth basically 0 dps)

Demonic does less damage than chaos blades, so when we're going to a tier bonus that is objectively garbage and only benefits an inferior talent set, from tier bonuses that are good and benefit a better talent set, it's a massive hit. Not only are we being forced to switch to a worse build, we're not even being compensated for being forced to go a sub-optimal build by getting set bonuses that help to elevate it to be competitive.

This is why you're seeing a massive drop in our simcraft results, from top 10 spec to a bottom 10 spec. Even if they buff the base class or nerf t20, chaos blades will still be superior by a wide enough margin to make the set bonuses as they are now a complete non-starter; You'll just wear titanforged mythic t20, or ignore tier completely for the best itemized individual pieces and play chaos blades.

So, basically, we're right back where we were a few weeks ago; complete and utter despair and outrage at the thought of raiding in this tier as we are objectively garbage and have a tier that literally does nothing for us. Better hope your guild runs a weekend mythic tomb every week for those titanforges.

[Svisalith]

The context is important. The 3% buff was for the compensation to netherlight crucible. All the classes who's artifact ilvl weren't as strong got slight buffs for compensation.

Havoc scaled well with the crucible, there were explicitly further buffs to several classes (havoc included) that were underpowered

Whats important to note, is that the t19-t20 transition was essentially the same build just switching set bonuses. However, with t21, we need to play an entirely different spec to even hope to achieve any semblance of benefit from the t21 bonuses

Not entirely true, the switchover happened in the weeks after and during several balance tweaks where the value of other talents increased. If you sim BIS tierless stuff (7x critical chaos relic, best stats for whatever build) it's around a 5% DPS loss to take first blood and the t20 set spends a large fraction of its power to counteract that loss.

[ufta]

why do you say this?

DH is OP as fk still and just because a BETA stat got reverted simply means it was too much! just because we get ridiculous things and then they get taken away doesnt make it "laughable", just simply "in-line" with the other classes.

we all know DH will still be above the rest

I'm sure this is a troll post, but just so that visitors don't take it the wrong way:

[Sylvaeres]

Yes because Outlaw and Sin have dominated the Expansion right? Blizzard moved the Set bonuses in line with each other, this is the % gain of DPS seen from Set bonuses, Havoc, Fury, Shadow, etc were all Outliers, the nerf does suck but the Set isn't going to be bad by any means.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...b225&sle=true#

Uh, Sin was one of the top performing specs in NH and iirc EN as well

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why do you say this?

DH is OP as fk still and just because a BETA stat got reverted simply means it was too much! just because we get ridiculous things and then they get taken away doesnt make it "laughable", just simply "in-line" with the other classes.

we all know DH will still be above the rest

Lmao ya you're clearly not qualified to even comment after saying something like that

[RobertoCarlos]

Fire mage and balance druid don't have mediocre single target rofl.

Fire Mage needs legend bracer so Gl rerolling and getting it before antorus is cleared. Without bracer they are shit especially compared to frost which can rock any legendary and still beat fire in ST.

Stop crying for everything. DH niche atm is massive burst with meta and big aoe cooldowns

[Lucrece]

Fire Mage needs legend bracer so Gl rerolling and getting it before antorus is cleared. Without bracer they are shit especially compared to frost which can rock any legendary and still beat fire in ST.

Stop crying for everything. DH niche atm is massive burst with meta and big aoe cooldowns

If you don't have bracers by now you're not even part of the people that should care about high tier raiding anyways. What a dumb argument.

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm sure this is a troll post, but just so that visitors don't take it the wrong way:

Bet my life on it some of those specs that sim well dont live up to it in raid. Like demo lock. Movement kills thier ramp up so in.a raid environment you never get the patchwork style fight.

Are all DH players so whiny?

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If you don't have bracers by now you're not even part of the people that should care about high tier raiding anyways. What a dumb argument.

So you been raiding as a mage all expac? Why you discussing DH then

[Lucrece]

Bet my life on it some of those specs that sim well dont live up to it in raid. Like demo lock. Movement kills thier ramp up so in.a raid environment you never get the patchwork style fight.

Are all DH players so whiny?

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So you been raiding as a mage all expac? Why you discussing DH then

You don't even need all xpac to have all legendaries. By Nighthold I already had all havoc legendaries. Stop trolling.

The argument that you need X legendary to perform is moot because top 100 guilds will have players who have been farming enough to where the necessary legendaries are there. Even at a casual pace you should be receiving a legendary at least every 2 weeks.

[RobertoCarlos]

You don't even need all xpac to have all legendaries. By Nighthold I already had all havoc legendaries. Stop trolling.

The argument that you need X legendary to perform is moot because top 100 guilds will have players who have been farming enough to where the necessary legendaries are there. Even at a casual pace you should be receiving a legendary at least every 2 weeks.

OK well have fun playing mage if it's so much better. Honestly all the doom and gloom here is just a bore. Re roll already if DH is so shit

[Frozenbro]

Bet my life on it some of those specs that sim well dont live up to it in raid. Like demo lock. Movement kills thier ramp up so in.a raid environment you never get the patchwork style fight.

Are all DH players so whiny?

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So you been raiding as a mage all expac? Why you discussing DH then

Those are logs not sims, can you be less dumb next time? thanks.

Edit: And just so you know, those logs are now farming logs, during progression we were even worse, so stop spouting nonsense and let the people who know 1 or 2 things about dh do the talking.

[Lucrece]

OK well have fun playing mage if it's so much better. Honestly all the doom and gloom here is just a bore. Re roll already if DH is so shit

Already did, to warlock. While you're busy here posting retarded nonsequiturs, the people that complain here are complaining because they want to play their DH instead of another class without being gimped.

[RobertoCarlos]

Those are logs not sims, can you be less dumb next time? thanks.

Oh course I should have checked it was a tomb of sag log. The one time in legion DH wasn't top 3.

I assumed it was antorus discussion because it's a tier 21 discussion thread and the simming logs get linked everyday even though mythic tuning hasnt been done. My bad.

Should have known the DH player base would go on about tomb forever. DH is stuck middle of the pack forever damn it I'm an idiot

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Already did, to warlock. While you're busy here posting retarded nonsequiturs, the people that complain here are complaining because they want to play their DH instead of another class without being gimped.

Good good. Aff lock I hope? Need some more fury warriors and shadow priests this tier too. Everything else is a waste of time to bring. Only the top 3 simming classes are allowed in raids.

[kaelleria]

Oh course I should have checked it was a tomb of sag log. The one time in legion DH wasn't top 3.

I assumed it was antorus discussion because it's a tier 21 discussion thread and the simming logs get linked everyday even though mythic tuning hasnt been done. My bad.

Should have known the DH player base would go on about tomb forever. DH is stuck middle of the pack forever damn it I'm an idiot

Actually DH were one of the worst classes in Tomb during progression.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#region=1

[Enentari]

The one time in legion DH wasn't top 3.

It wasn't top 3 in NH, neither in EN...