Rommath wins 7.3.5

[Magnagarde]

it wasn't just one human that wanted it, his forces did too. dalaran had the power to stop the execution and they did not do it. that's tacit approval.

Dalaran had no authority to stop whatever was transpiring as Garithos was the leader in that place.

[Combatbutler]

Dalaran was a kingdom of its own, with its own forces. Quel'thalas had its own forces too. These were indifferent to all that was happening in Lordaeron and Dalaran.

No the elves in Dalaran had pretty much dual citizenship and represented their kingdom too, pretty much like the sunreavers later on. And again the elves weren't indifferent to what was going on they were actually trying to figure out what was going on and then everything went to hell.

[Rhlor]

Haulduron is there to show what a high elf without schizophrenic writing looks like.

¡Incluso su ropa es azul!

[derpkitteh]

Dalaran had no authority to stop whatever was transpiring as Garithos was the leader in that place.

they're incredibly powerful mages that were drastically needed. if they disagreed strongly enough, garithos would stand down.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Dalaran had no authority to stop whatever was transpiring as Garithos was the leader in that place.

Which is a hilarious excuse, they couldn’t even provide a way for them to sneak out, Hell they don’t even try to save them.

Their inaction was throwing their lot in with Garithos, the stronger ally at the time, instead of the elves. Like they always do the Kirin Tor was choosing the strongest option, it just happened to be stabbing 3 thousand year old allies in the back.

[Magnagarde]

No the elves in Dalaran had pretty much dual citizenship and represented their kingdom too, pretty much like the sunreavers later on. And again the elves weren't indifferent to what was going on they were actually trying to figure out what was going on and then everything went to hell.

That didn't change the fact that whatever high elf was in Dalaran was under Dalaran's orders. As such, they joined the battle via Dalaran's forces, not Quel'thalas.

To say this is like saying that Jaina fighting the Burning Legion at Mt. Hyjal means that Kul Tiras helped save the world by working with the orcs because Jaina came from Kul Tiras.

they're incredibly powerful mages that were drastically needed. if they disagreed strongly enough, garithos would stand down.

This dwells into headcanon area. What we do know is that Garithos was the man in charge.

Which is a hilarious excuse, they couldn’t even provide a way for them to sneak out, Hell they don’t even try to save them.

Nobody needs to excuse something that is never touched upon in the lore in the first place. According to you Modera, an inexistent character at the time of the scenario's creation, was meant to save Kael'thas. Warcraft 3 basically preconditioned the now existent character to complete indifference, which is why Modera and her inaction shouldn't even be brought up as something viable or important to this discussion.

[Combatbutler]

That didn't change the fact that whatever high elf was in Dalaran was under Dalaran's orders. As such, they joined the battle via Dalaran's forces, not Quel'thalas.

Not quite true the elves could leave at any time, while they had to obey the laws in the city, if Silvermoon called for them they could just pack up and leave.

To say this is like saying that Jaina fighting the Burning Legion at Mt. Hyjal means that Kul Tiras saved the world by working with the orcs because Jaina came from Kul Tiras.

Jaina took half the Kul tiran fleet for her expedition so of course Kul'tiras was involved in saving the world. I'd say you would be correct if we were talking about a handful of individuals, but ultimately we are talking about thousands of people.

[Better]

Not saying that the Alliance wasn't written in a way that would have them pull diplomatic mistakes one after the other. I'm simply commenting about the way that humans can be judged by blood elves because of Garithos, but blood elves can't be judged because of the Divine Bell incident. Hell, the example - ironically - even involves the sme location.

Well part of it is that in both situations Blood Elves got the bad end of the stick. Innocent members of the Sunreavers were jailed, or killed (keep in mind Jaina doesn't have the authority to suddenly declare the expulsion of a major faction from the city, as it's run by a council) for something they had no knowledge of even happening. Comparing the two situations is odd, since for Garithos he wanted to execute all of the Blood Elves that were under him. And for Jaina she wanted to jail/execute the Blood Elves in Dalaran. (never really clear what she wanted, because there apparently was no trial ever, even though lore-wise there's something like a 5 year timeskip somewhere around the end of WoD. So 5+ years of prison with NO TRIAL EVER.)
Both times Blood Elves' lives were threatened by people that were supposed to be allies.

[Rhlor]

Blood Elves are in the top three of my favourite races, so I can definitely see things from their perspective. I just don't see how allying with the Horde was preferable. If I was a pretty lil Sin'dorei I'd rather remain factionless and deal with our own shit. The Horde offered them what, some token Forsaken support from Sylvanas so she could later blackmail them, and an equal footing with races that previously butchered their people?

let's remember a bit of history.

in the second war the alliance left quelthalas that was under siege and the elves had to defeat the trolls without help, while troops of quelthlas pursued the horde to liberate stormwind.

then we have garithos and the kirintor betraying the elves that helped to liberate dalaran from the scourge !!

then we have the night elves invading quelthalas.

and once again the kirin tor attack the blood elves.

now a group of mutants study the dark magic of the greatest traitor in our history and through their fault void monsters enter quelthalas and almost destroy the sunwell !! these mutants join the alliance !!

yes, the alliance can go to shit !!!

The sunwell must be protected!

[Magnagarde]

Like they always do the Kirin Tor was choosing the strongest option, it just happened to be stabbing 3 thousand year old allies in the back.

They weren't allies - they were Dalaranian forces and as such bound to serve the Alliance due to Dalaran's stance. They were an integral part of it, not an outside aide. A dwarf that is a citizen of Stormwind is a citizen of Stormwind, not an Ironforge citizen in Stormwind.

Anasterian withdrew Quel'thalas from the Alliance, which explicitly makes Kael'thas and the high elves of Dalaran subordinates within the Alliance army due to them being Dalaranian. This makes a clear disctinction between the high elves of Quel'thalas and the high elves of Dalaran in terms of hierarchy and where their orders come from. This also makes a clear disctinction in regards to the fact that Quel'thalas provided no proper help in dealing with the Scourge.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That didn't change the fact that whatever high elf was in Dalaran was under Dalaran's orders. As such, they joined the battle via Dalaran's forces, not Quel'thalas.

To say this is like saying that Jaina fighting the Burning Legion at Mt. Hyjal means that Kul Tiras helped save the world by working with the orcs because Jaina came from Kul Tiras.




This dwells into headcanon area. What we do know is that Garithos was the man in charge.



Nobody needs to excuse something that is never touched upon in the lore in the first place. According to you Modera, an inexistent character at the time of the scenario's creation, was meant to save Kael'thas. Warcraft 3 basically preconditioned the now existent character to complete indifference, which is why Modera and her inaction shouldn't even be brought up as something viable or important to this discussion.

So now we’re back to “it’s not betrayal because they were only listening to Garithos,” you realize that’s still betrayal right?

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They weren't allies - they were Dalaranian forces and as such bound to serve the Alliance due to Dalaran's stance. As such, they were an integral part of it, not an outside aide.

Anasterian withdrew Quel'thalas from the Alliance, which explicitly makes Kael'thas and the high elves of Dalaran subordinates within the Alliance army due to them being Dalaranian.

Oh please, you know that’s not fucking true, quel’thalas and Dalaran were allies even in The book “Arthas” even after they pulled out of the Alliance.


Even if it was the case, it would still be betrayal no matter which way you try to spin this next.

[Rhlor]

Garithos's hatred of elves was justified. Without humans, they would have lost to the trolls. And then, years later, with people who actually remembered that war IN CHARGE, they just send what, 50 rangers to help the Alliance with the orcs? If the orcs didn't start burning the Eversong woods, they probably wouldn't send more reinforcements. And 20 years later, do they help with the undead? No, they hide behind their gates again. And then, when their homeland burns they, of course, suddenly remember where to go. With allies like that, who needs enemies?

TL/DR: Never trust an elf.

let me remember, the humans left quel'thalas to their fate and it has to be the elves who defeat the amani without any help.
at the time when the plague destroyed lordaeron the high elves thought it was a human civil war. no other human or dwarf kingdom helped lordaeron. dalaran is much closer than quelthalas, gilneas, wild hammer, stromgarde. nobody helped them

[Combatbutler]

They weren't allies - they were Dalaranian forces and as such bound to serve the Alliance due to Dalaran's stance. They were an integral part of it, not an outside aide. A dwarf that is a citizen of Stormwind is a citizen of Stormwind, not an Ironforge citizen in Stormwind.

Anasterian withdrew Quel'thalas from the Alliance, which explicitly makes Kael'thas and the high elves of Dalaran subordinates within the Alliance army due to them being Dalaranian. This makes a clear disctinction between the high elves of Quel'thalas and the high elves of Dalaran in terms of hierarchy and where their orders come from.

The elves were in dalaran as allies, they might have had citizenship, but ultimately answered to Quel'thalas. That was the case for almost 3.000 years.

[Better]

Anasterian withdrew Quel'thalas from the Alliance, which explicitly makes Kael'thas and the high elves of Dalaran subordinates within the Alliance army due to them being Dalaranian. This makes a clear disctinction between the high elves of Quel'thalas and the high elves of Dalaran in terms of hierarchy and where their orders come from. This also makes a clear disctinction in regards to the fact that Quel'thalas provided no proper help in dealing with the Scourge.

Today I learned the Crown Prince of a faction has no actual relation to the faction they're the crown prince of.

[Magnagarde]

So now we’re back to “it’s not betrayal because they were only listening to Garithos,” you realize that’s still betrayal right?

There is nothing to realize. Kael'thas had orders given to him by Garithos in order to get rid of him, he took Garithos' bait and was imprisoned by him.

Today I learned the Crown Prince of a faction has no actual relation to the faction they're the crown prince of.

While he is an integral part of Dalaran's force and while his original kingdom is officially withdrawn from the Alliance, he doesn't. His role was the role of a citizen of Dalaran and a member of the six, not the crown prince of Quel'thalas.

Garithos bluntly puts it out into his face who is in charge of things and Kael'thas nods away. If shows that him being a crown prince did not matter in this case.

[Friendlyimmolation]

There is nothing to realize. Kael'thas had orders given to him by Garithos in order to get rid of him, he took Garithos' bait and was imprisoned by him.

And then Dalaran chose Garithos over their three thousand year old allies, that’s betrayal and I’m not sure how the hell you can even try to morph it into something else

[Magnagarde]

And then Dalaran chose Garithos over their three thousand year old allies, that’s betrayal and I’m not sure how the hell you can even try to morph it into something else

Dalaran chose nothing as it wasn't up to Dalaran to chose anything. Garithos was the military chief of operations.

[Rhlor]

Not saying that the Alliance wasn't written in a way that would have them pull diplomatic mistakes one after the other. I'm simply commenting about the way that humans can be judged by blood elves because of Garithos, but blood elves can't be judged because of the Divine Bell incident. Hell, the example - ironically - even involves the same location.



He was part of the Kirin Tor and as such, part of the forces of Dalaran. Quel'thalas' forces on the other hand remained stationary throughout the ordeal.

error!! kelthas returns to quelthalas and takes the best troops to help the alliance

[Combatbutler]

While he is an integral part of Dalaran's force and while his original kingdom is officially withdrawn from the Alliance, he doesn't.

His role was the role of a citizen of Dalaran and a member of the six, not the crown prince of Quel'thalas.

Is that why people constantly addressed him as prince? I mean his title shouldn't mean anything as a mere citizen of dalaran. The elves were rented forces so to speak.

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Dalaran chose nothing as it wasn't up to Dalaran to chose anything. Garithos was the military chief of operations.

They could have killed him in his sleep for example, instead of letting thousands of people die that had been helping them for generations in some cases.

[Magnagarde]

Is that why people constantly addressed him as prince? I mean his title shouldn't mean anything as a mere citizen of dalaran. The elves were rented forces so to speak.

Of course they'll call him prince because he is known as being the prince, but it meant absolutely nothing when it comes to the military hierarchy. He was there as a citizen of Dalaran, not the prince of Quel'thalas.