Rommath wins 7.3.5

[Rhlor]

It goes well with the narrative of BfA though.

Besides, I always wondered why Blizzard keeps bringing up these "reconciliation" efforts between the Alliance and blood elves. We all know it won't succeed primarily out of gameplay reasons, let alone all the grudges established in the lore. It is not like any of us believe it might happen. It has become stale at this point and I'm glad Lor'themar doesn't even address the idea put forward by Alleria.

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They were under orders. Doing something under strict military orders is completely different in comparison to doing something out of belief.

In fact, all we know is that a human soldier spotted Kael'thas with "snake people" and Garithos made him look like a traitor who sides with serpentine monsters that crawl out of the sea, branding him a traitor and disobedient man.

the enmity will be much stronger now that the alliance has the mutants void

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It goes well with the narrative of BfA though.

Besides, I always wondered why Blizzard keeps bringing up these "reconciliation" efforts between the Alliance and blood elves. We all know it won't succeed primarily out of gameplay reasons, let alone all the grudges established in the lore. It is not like any of us believe it might happen. It has become stale at this point and I'm glad Lor'themar doesn't even address the idea put forward by Alleria.

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They were under orders. Doing something under strict military orders is completely different from doing something out of personal belief.

In fact, all we know is that a human soldier spotted Kael'thas with "snake people" and Garithos made him look like a traitor who sides with serpentine monsters that crawl out of the sea, branding him a traitor and disobedient man.

In comparison, Greymane had one set of orders from Anduin, but he went through with his own in the end, which were guided by his personal belief; the dragoons that parachute down from the Skyfire aren't guilty for recieving orders from Greymane to attack the Horde.

I remember that some people in Germany in '45 said that they were only following orders when they did something similar to what they planned to do garithos

I also remember that this excuse was not valid and that it was made clear that following those orders was wrong and those people were sentenced to death for doing that.

[Magnagarde]

I remember that some people in Germany in '45 said that they were only following orders when they did something similar to what they planned to do garithos

I also remember that this excuse was not valid and that it was made clear that following those orders was wrong and those people were sentenced to death for doing that.

All I can say is that you should know and be aware of having to leave politics and political comparisons out of this.

[Rhlor]

All I can say is that you should know and be aware of having to leave politics and political comparisons out of this.

It's not something political, it's something historic!

If someone gives the order to mass kill a group of people it is a bad thing! and following those orders is a bad thing!

that's the truth! Do not try to justify the mass murder of people! nor defend those who planned to do it! saying "just follow orders" is not an excuse

[Daevelian]

Is it me or are people conveniently forgetting that Dalaran was destroyed in WC3 (alongside Arthas slaughtering the leadership of the Kirin Tor) and that the Kirin Tor were not directly involved with the Garithos-Kael'thas issue simply because those that remained at the time were pretty much lower rank survivors with no form of leadership until MUCH later when people like Modera stepped up again? It's also highly likely the few surviving Kirin tor with any authority did not know of the imprisonment, since, you know, it lasted not even 12 hours before the naga broke them out.

Remember that Garithos and his small band of forces retook Dalaran from the scourge who inhabited its remains.

Edit: fixed inconsistency and missed lore.

[Kallisto]

Well part of it is that in both situations Blood Elves got the bad end of the stick. Innocent members of the Sunreavers were jailed, or killed (keep in mind Jaina doesn't have the authority to suddenly declare the expulsion of a major faction from the city, as it's run by a council) for something they had no knowledge of even happening. Comparing the two situations is odd, since for Garithos he wanted to execute all of the Blood Elves that were under him. And for Jaina she wanted to jail/execute the Blood Elves in Dalaran. (never really clear what she wanted, because there apparently was no trial ever, even though lore-wise there's something like a 5 year timeskip somewhere around the end of WoD. So 5+ years of prison with NO TRIAL EVER.)
Both times Blood Elves' lives were threatened by people that were supposed to be allies.

There actually was no time skip. From Vanilla to Legion each has been 1 year except for Cataclysm which was 2.

BfA is going to be year 33. Legion was year 32 and was 4 years after end of wrath/start of cata which was year 28 (Both Magni/Moira comic for legion build up and I believe the frost DK blade writing confirms this)

[Better]

There actually was no time skip. From Vanilla to Legion each has been 1 year except for Cataclysm which was 2.

BfA is going to be year 33. Legion was year 32 and was 4 years after end of wrath/start of cata which was year 28 (Both Magni/Moira comic for legion build up and I believe the frost DK blade writing confirms this)

Legion can't be 4 years after the start of cata, unless for some reason they retconned Wrath happening right after TBC. 10 years has passed since Illidan was defeated at Black Temple. DH start confirms this.

edit: or maybe not. Was this something they said when they announced them. I swear I remember 10 years being stated at one point, but the cinematic only says "Years later" now.
edit2: Gamescom announcement they said it was 10 years, so who knows.

[Koroniss]

If I recall correctly, the only Dalaran officials we knew of at the time besides Kael'Thas himself were dead. The others' position on the matter is non-existent, as those characters were created in later titles by Blizzard and the company never actually bothered to address that topic. They only retconned Garithos years later to actually give him a specific reason to hate the elves (rather than just being a twat in general).

The only thing we know is simply "What role the Kirin Tor had in this, if any, and even the exact status of the Kirin Tor during this time is largely unknown."

I saw someone accusing humans of betraying the elves on the grounds of what Arthas did. This is just wrong, as at that point he was but an empty husk with no actual will or soul of his own, a puppet of Ner'Zhul. Claiming that the Alliance had anything to do with the elven genocide holds as much ground as claiming that the Horde is to blame, for Ner was once an orc.

The Alliance of today only idiotically "betrayed" (the quotes are due to the blood elves being no part of the Alliance, but a standalone faction of their own) the elves during the events of TBC. And the reason for it was that actual humans were not rolling orcs and trolls in sufficient numbers, so Blizzard had to come with some basis for the elves joining the Horde. I wish it was not due to some Night elven task force, though. That was stupid, considering that those were a world apart. It should have been Stormwind soldiers in the Ghostlands along with that dwarf. Would have served the point way better, in my opinion.

As a general remark, all the high elves that were tied with the Alliance still are. The token military force of high elves that served the Alliance at one point or another are mostly still part of it or dead. Those who stayed back in Silvermoon... are actually sound allies with the Kingdom of Lordaeron Well, at least with the majority of it.

And as for the void elves, I find it rather comical. For years many people wanted to play high elves in the current Alliance (me amongst them, as I have a WC2 background, elven rangers were my favourite unit and I still remember how their battlecry was, ironically, "For the Alliance", almost a decade before WoW became a thing. Actually, that battlecry might very well be older than the iconical "For the Horde" everyone is familiar with today; didn't it arrive with WC3?).

Instead, Blizzard opted for some strange visual compromise, and intentionally or not, to a degree gave us just that. The void elves story, or what little we know of it currently, mirrors the actual high elven story (just like the Nightborne's mimics the blood elven one). After surviving a genocide, part of the elven survivors genuinely believes that they should muster whatever power they could in order to strengthen their defenses and avoid such tragedy befall them again. They get to be increasingly disliked by their people, then try to prove them wrong, which ultimately ends in a disaster and subsequent exile. This is exactly what the high elves did right after the first Legion invasion, only clinging to the arcane vs nature power source, rather than void vs light, and Lor'themar filling the shoes of Malfurion (thankfully, minus the snoring part).

TLDR = the current Alliance technically never betrayed the high elves. And the high elves, by whatever name they go today, are still part of the alliance they swore into.

NB! (I know some of you are lurking into such threads, hence I am addressing you directly): Some Alliance players relentlessly asked for high elves. They got almost all of that, minus some of the morals. And one could always RP those. A bit bluish version, indeed, but with more rigid and militant appearance than the fancy looking Horde counterpart - just what I've often seen being asked for. Their battlecry is even "For the Alliance", for crying out loud, just like as we old farts remember them. Please, rather than insisting for "pure" Alliance high elves (even if Blizzard deliveres, those will be added no sooner than 15 years from now), reform some of your forum efforts into requesting better lore and character development. Alleria is definitely in dire need of better writing. As is the entire Alliance. And this is coming from a decades old staunch "Alliance high elves" supporter.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

For all the other issues I take with BFA, the writing seems absolutely superb. Well, in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.

[Mehrunes]

Quite possibly some of the weakest bait I've ever seen. You gotta' do better than that.

But what if they can't? :3

Blood Elves are in the top three of my favourite races, so I can definitely see things from their perspective. I just don't see how allying with the Horde was preferable. If I was a pretty lil Sin'dorei I'd rather remain factionless and deal with our own shit. The Horde offered them what, some token Forsaken support from Sylvanas so she could later blackmail them, and an equal footing with races that previously butchered their people?

That "token Forsaken support" was the difference between losing Ghostlands and holding it even after Dar'khan died and the Blood Elves had the Sunwell reignited. Before that is was most likely even closer to a difference between life and the second Scourge genocide in less than a decade. Now compare that to people who backstabbed you over not dying like their leader wanted, then sent saboteurs to your land under the guise of diplomatic talks, essentially tainting the very concept of diplomacy in mutual relations for quite some time. Also, given how hard they relayed on Forsaken help, they weren't exactly capable of dealing with their own shit at the time and had to ally with one faction or the other. The circumstances made the choice easy. And Sylvanas threatened to pull that "token support" only after Lor'themar tried to skirt on his obligations to the Horde after Sylvanas relayed the news of Horde's call to war.

Didn't the Blood Elf players have to kill Dar'Khan to prove themselves worthy of joining the Horde in the first place? And if they had a grudge against one bigot Knight leading a force of equally devastated Humans for imprisoning their Prince, how the hell did they not have grudges against the Orcs that razed their forests?

Still with Horde's help. The quest to kill him is from Tranquillien. Non-belf players even have a different version of the following quests that send you to Sylvanas and then to Orgrimmar. And Orcs not only didn't achieve all that much in Quel'thalas thanks to the shields, they were at war for like a year. Not a good start to relations, but not something damning for all eternity either. Especially with the Horde reforming since then. Getting kicked while you're already down by someone you considered your ally may leave a sour taste in your mouth for longer. And the Alliance still tried to fuck them later on at the start of TBC, effectively making the choice for them. That topic even appears when you finish the entire Blood Elf starting experience in Orgrimmar.

[Deleted]

Third War - once again the bulk of Quel'thalas' forces remained within their forests and behind their enchanted gates, leaving the rest of the Alliance to fend off the Scourge(whatever help was provided by Kael'thas was based off the Kirin Tor, not Quel'thalas per se);

You mean during the Lordaeron internal coup and surprise attack against Quel'thalas? Have you truly forgot that the first victim of the Scourge Army was Quel'thalas and not Lordaeron?

Hell, Quel'thalas sent the rangers led by Sylvanas as soon they heard about the rumors coming from Lordaeron City.

[Mehrunes]

Garithos's hatred of elves was justified. Without humans, they would have lost to the trolls. And then, years later, with people who actually remembered that war IN CHARGE, they just send what, 50 rangers to help the Alliance with the orcs? If the orcs didn't start burning the Eversong woods, they probably wouldn't send more reinforcements. And 20 years later, do they help with the undead? No, they hide behind their gates again. And then, when their homeland burns they, of course, suddenly remember where to go. With allies like that, who needs enemies?

TL/DR: Never trust an elf.

The only knowledge of the Orc threat they had before they first sent troops was from Stormwind. A nation that was almost destroyed by Gnolls and then by the remnant of the Gurrubashi Empire in the years leading to the First War. Not exactly the best barometer of the scope of the threat. The High Elves simply underestimated the threat. That's what Alleria thought when she went with her own troops to aid the Alliance too. Once they were proven wrong, they participated fully.

Elves abandon humans twice during times of war and it's non committal, a single human leads a small ass group of survivors and is a (justified) dick towards elves, the humans are outright murderously treacherous.

I wonder if you elf apologists even realise what you are saying sometimes...

Elves aided the Alliance in the Second War and left it before the Third War was even on the horizon, because the Alliance has already fractured to pieces thanks to human nations leaving it left and right over petty squabbles. And even then they still sent some help during the Third war. So the usual shitfest of lore knowledge on your part.

And not only was Garithos supported in his decision by the rest of the Alliance, his "justified" dickhood was based on unsupported assumptions he made about the fate of his hometown. Also, him being a dick was actually him sending Blood Elves on suicide missions, pulling support from their positions and then sentencing them to death over his prejudices. So good job whitewashing him. And then you whine about people "whitewashing" Sylvanas just because they correct your fanfiction. Something something "I wonder if you Garithos apologists even realise what you are saying sometimes..." Also, even if the Elves did abandon the humans during a war, that'd still be lesser slight against their allies than what Garithos did.

Second War - they provided only token help untill their own kingdom got attacked;

So they didn't abandon them then? Who'd have thunk, you're using words you can't remotely comprehend again.

Third War - once again the bulk of Quel'thalas' forces remained within their forests and behind their enchanted gates, leaving the rest of the Alliance to fend off the Scourge(whatever help was provided by Kael'thas was based off the Kirin Tor, not Quel'thalas per se);

Not only is not counting help from Kael'thas sent from Kirin Tor as if he wasn't the prince of Quel'thalas and those Elves were not citizens of Quel'thalas dishonest as fuck (shock), they still sent more than that.

High elves that are Kirin Tor are Dalaranian high elves and as such have been providing for the Alliance non-inclusive of Quel'thalas.

You just talked about them being sent by the prince of Quel'thalas in previous post.

Gilneas sent token help, pretty much the same amount the high elves did untill they were endangared. Stromgarde provided nearly half the fighting force of the Alliance during the Second War. Stormwind was destroyed in the First War and had nothing much to offer in the first place.

Pretty sure he talked about the Third War. But why not play obtuse if it may make it look like you have a point

[RobertMugabe]

Make Quel'Thalas great again!

[Mehrunes]

Dalaran was a kingdom of its own, with its own forces. Quel'thalas had its own forces too. These were indifferent to all that was happening in Lordaeron and Dalaran and only fought the Scourge once it banged on their magic gates.

Aside from your mental gymnastics about High Elves living in Dalaran, prior to this shitpost @Combatbulter talked about other forces at least twice, starting like 5 replies earlier.

[CthulhuFhtagn]

About damn time he got some screentime.

[Dagoth Ur]

Horde gets all the sassyness with Rommath and Valtoris being teamed up. Some great dialogue is bound to occur.

Also, hope this means Horde doesn't have to do stuff for Kirin Tor anymore.

[Arrashi]

Horde gets all the sassyness with Rommath and Valtoris being teamed up. Some great dialogue is bound to occur.

Also, hope this means Horde doesn't have to do stuff for Kirin Tor anymore.

Not a chance, first patch after release one will be horde working with kirin tor and alleria and turalyon.

[Dagoth Ur]

Not a chance, first patch after release one will be horde working with kirin tor and alleria and turalyon.

Kirin Tor pls go.

If that turns out to be the case though I will proceed to endlessly spam click on Rommath until even the game itself starts believing he's a quest giver. "Give me the freaking quest you sassy bastard!!"

[Lochton]

Hah... HAHAHA.. Loved this!

[Dagoth Ur]

Throw a N’wah in there

Kinda unrelated, but Magisters remind me so much of House Telvanni. I think Neloth and Rommath would develop the biggest bromance both of those universes has ever seen.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Kinda unrelated, but Magisters remind me so much of House Telvanni. I think Neloth and Rommath would develop the biggest bromance both of those universes has ever seen.

Indeed they would, the only thing different is Rommath at least somewhat cares for his apprentices.