Current m+15 and Hc raiding doesn't match together

[Deleted]

I'm aware that my opinion is pretty unique and I expect many people to disagree.

Why this title?

- I currently have ilvl 959 and I have killed only 2 bosses in antorus hc.
- The gear I use is mainly from mythic+15. I can 2-3 chest any dungeon with ease, hence I get the loot pretty easy.
- I surely got lucky on some loot and was able to snack some 960 items, but mostly 945-955.
- I don't care about setpieces or secondary stats, because if I loot a 960 item, I want to feel happy and not "damn, its 30ilvl higher, but the stats suck".
- Overall this evens out across my character and I'm fine with it.

The problem is, that my average ilvl is 15-20ilvls higher than the current hc raid, which is only out for 2 weeks and was expected to last for months.

My ilvl gearing process is basically done for this addon.

At first I liked to grind 940's in m+ and the idea to skip raids for gearing, but while enjoying this process I realize that raiding is a core feeling which is needed (for me) when it comes to gearing my character.

Now, with BfA coming and tier sets removed, its raids will be "complete" obsolete, because I'm able to get 20 ilvls more from other non-raiding content.
This removes the complete fun of raiding and enjoying this content. I could still go antorus hc for "set items" and "trinkets", but after 2 weeks I would already hope for them to proc by 20 ilvls to have the feeling I want to have.


I really hope they find a solution for BfA. M+15 grinding is okay and raiding is okay and both gearing ways should exist next to each other.
I don't understand why some bosses can drop two relics, a setpiece, a trinket, a cloak and 2 other items, maybe they could make some lootslots exquisite to m+ farming and to raiding, so we "have" to do both to gear our character. This sounds as a bad design but in the long term, both gearing ways will stay relevant and give the players a way to enjoy the game for a longer period.

[Nishu]

Well that was the main problem with my group raiding ToS. Our ilvls were 15-20 ahead of what dropped due to titanforge inflation and mythic plus and no one really saw there being a point to going back. It's a system that is great for casual players as well as returning players but it makes raiding less worthwhile in it's current setup

[ONCHEhap]

If you can 2-3 chest M15s easily, then you and your group are at the skill and gear level of mythic raiding, not heroic raiding. The issue probably is you either don't want, or cannot easily raid mythic.

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

[Deleted]

M15+ and HC raiding are not meant to match.
M15+ anf MM raiding are.

[killwithpwr]

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

It is very dependant on the affixes... And sometimes the dungeon itself...

A +15 Lower Kara with teeming, bolstering and fortified is way more problamatic than sangwine, volcanic fortified +18 Upper Kara.

Maybe even +20...

Comparing m+ to raiding is about the same as comparing the difficulty between sudoku and cross-word puzzles... Some will have difficulty in placing the right words while others might have difficulty in placing numbers... And some people will find either both easy or both hard...

[Krobane]

I'm aware that my opinion is pretty unique and I expect many people to disagree.

Why this title?

- I currently have ilvl 959 and I have killed only 2 bosses in antorus hc.
- The gear I use is mainly from mythic+15. I can 2-3 chest any dungeon with ease, hence I get the loot pretty easy.
- I surely got lucky on some loot and was able to snack some 960 items, but mostly 945-955.
- I don't care about setpieces or secondary stats, because if I loot a 960 item, I want to feel happy and not "damn, its 30ilvl higher, but the stats suck".
- Overall this evens out across my character and I'm fine with it.

The problem is, that my average ilvl is 15-20ilvls higher than the current hc raid, which is only out for 2 weeks and was expected to last for months.

My ilvl gearing process is basically done for this addon.

At first I liked to grind 940's in m+ and the idea to skip raids for gearing, but while enjoying this process I realize that raiding is a core feeling which is needed (for me) when it comes to gearing my character.

Now, with BfA coming and tier sets removed, its raids will be "complete" obsolete, because I'm able to get 20 ilvls more from other non-raiding content.
This removes the complete fun of raiding and enjoying this content. I could still go antorus hc for "set items" and "trinkets", but after 2 weeks I would already hope for them to proc by 20 ilvls to have the feeling I want to have.


I really hope they find a solution for BfA. M+15 grinding is okay and raiding is okay and both gearing ways should exist next to each other.
I don't understand why some bosses can drop two relics, a setpiece, a trinket, a cloak and 2 other items, maybe they could make some lootslots exquisite to m+ farming and to raiding, so we "have" to do both to gear our character. This sounds as a bad design but in the long term, both gearing ways will stay relevant and give the players a way to enjoy the game for a longer period.

Sooooo basically what you're saying is you don't wear any tier and your secondary stats are all over the place, which means ur the noob that just throws on the highest ilvl gear you have without any thought. Your DPS is probably horrendous which is why ur only 2/11 H. And your horrible gearing choices are what seems to have halted the fun of loot for you. So instead of making your character the best they can be, you inflate your ilvl without any direct correlation in the hopes that dumbasses will see ur ilvl for group finder and instantly invite you. Dont see you stepping into a Mythic Antorus group anytime soon.

Go ahead and link your wow-progress, prove me wrong.

[Ange]

I guess I can call myself lucky to not get much TF gear yet and I can keep farming HC for next weeks/months and still get upgrades!?

Your problems with to much TF gear are so rare, most players wont even care.

I guess you could enjoy M+ a bit more and work on your "orange" mrating or reroll or whatever. Legion is a farming expansion on multiple levels I don't even get how you can even get the feeling of "beeing done" with anything.

Maybe you should set your goals much higher like the other poster said?
- mythic raid progress
- max simDPS
- max AP
- max mscore

Or are you done programming learning after your first hello world?

[Deleted]

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

you wouldnt claim this had you done any hc antorus.

- - - Updated - - -

Or are you done programming learning after your first hello world?

comparing a m15+ with hello world is kinda silly.

[potis]

- I don't care about setpieces or secondary stats, because if I loot a 960 item, I want to feel happy and not "damn, its 30ilvl higher, but the stats suck".

This pretty much throws away all credibility your post might have had, cause thats a red flag of a majorly bad player.

Even so, i will bite.

Raiding provides tier sets, and trinkets that are far superior to any M+ garbage.

M+ is there for raiders to get offpieces, if some people do it exclusively, good for them, you are playing the game wrongly.

Now when it comes to BFA, sets being removed is a great thing but at the same time they are gonna be changing Titanforging to a much more rare thing according to them, and we have easily 9 months left before we know anything more.

[Deleted]

I think you misunderstand the idea of what the tier bonuses will be in BfA.

From what I understand you'll have to do raids to get special traits that you slot into the new artifact neck, these will function similarly to the bonuses you get from tier sets as they are now but won't limit your armor slots in the same way.

[ONCHEhap]

It is very dependant on the affixes... And sometimes the dungeon itself...

A +15 Lower Kara with teeming, bolstering and fortified is way more problamatic than sangwine, volcanic fortified +18 Upper Kara.

Maybe even +20...

Comparing m+ to raiding is about the same as comparing the difficulty between sudoku and cross-word puzzles... Some will have difficulty in placing the right words while others might have difficulty in placing numbers... And some people will find either both easy or both hard...

gotta agree on that,it's not really the same thing as raiding,I consider it overall easier than raiding,but hard to really compare

- - - Updated - - -

you wouldnt claim this had you done any hc antorus.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...r/lightslayers

You were saying?

[Zigrifid]

The way i see it , although im casual, is that blizz did this so more and more people can try mythic raiding, i dont know how easily pugable are the first 2 or 3 bosses as i said im casual. Probably that is why you can get such high ilvl gear from m+15,remember though that whatever the items you wear those with tiers and raiding trinekts (not all)will always have an edge

[Marston]

M15+ and HC raiding are not meant to match.
M15+ anf MM raiding are.

But is this due to tuning or due to the fact that you or people in general are simply unfamiliar with Antorus compared to the Mythic dungeons?

[judgementofantonidas]

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

not correct. I play with players who can steadily chew through heroic raid contect who seem to now show a clue when it comes to mythic plus much higher than 12.

the current afix system that cannot be outgeared is stupid in my opinion.
I dont play a thing to constantly get my butt whooped regardless of how much more powerful my character becomes.

[Lime]

Sooooo basically what you're saying is you don't wear any tier and your secondary stats are all over the place, which means ur the noob that just throws on the highest ilvl gear you have without any thought. Your DPS is probably horrendous which is why ur only 2/11 H. And your horrible gearing choices are what seems to have halted the fun of loot for you. So instead of making your character the best they can be, you inflate your ilvl without any direct correlation in the hopes that dumbasses will see ur ilvl for group finder and instantly invite you. Dont see you stepping into a Mythic Antorus group anytime soon.

Go ahead and link your wow-progress, prove me wrong.

I'm amazed by the number of baseless assumptions you just made just so you could disagree with someone.

[Sylvaeres]

OP has no tier, terrible stats, and an inflated I lvl. Not something to brag about. I could happily sacrifice tier and properly itemized gear to get close to his I lvl, but a 10 ILvL gain isn't worth losing the proper stats and set bonuses. This is one of the strangest posts I've ever seen

[MyndZero]

I'm amazed by the number of baseless assumptions you just made just so you could disagree with someone.

He did, but he has some valid points.

Secondary stats matter so much in this game, obviously may vary based on your class, I don't know how it functions across all classes & specs in this game but I would imagine they all have a big impact in how much DPS you can output. For example, as I play a fury warrior and during ToS raiding I was around 930, the other fury warrior was around 925 ilvl. The difference in our sim dps? Literally double. There are a lot of things that went in this result, but the biggest factor was his poorly optimized stats.

If a player like OP wants to disregard stats (which is beyond me, you're playing an RPG, ilvl isn't king in all scenarios) then I would say his definitely doing something wrong, or at the very least, looking at it the wrong way.

I generally agree with him though, M+ invalidates heroic raiding from a gear ilvl perspective. Unless you want the experience, you're there for tier and trinkets mostly. With tier going away next expansion and those *possible* slots that only come from raiding, if they're good for your spec, is only 3 out of the current 6 slots you could go for, so it hurts heroic even more.

I'm not sure how they could fix it though without hurting those that like M+. I've had the idea of maybe you need to do normal/heroic/mythic? raids to unlock higher level keys, but I'm not sure how popular that would be. I think fixing titanforging is something that should come first, then address this problem again after that because it's the biggest cause of these scenarios.

[Osmeric]

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

In my experience, H ToS was significantly easier than M15, and H Antorus is turning out that way also.

[Socialhealer]

Not really,mythic raiding is *significantly* harder than m15
Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

said person who never did either?

+15 is way harder than heroic antorus, doing +15's i can be hit for 80% of my health by unavoidable aoe's, in antorus nothing hits that hard if im doing mechanics

[Marrilaife]

Even heroic raiding is quite a difficulty step above m15

All the threads about "hc Antorus is undertuned, sooo eeez" would like to have a word with you... It's funny how point of view differs depending on person.