Why do Vereesa and Alleria hate their own people?

[Mehrunes]

The issue we run into is blizzard has said "she does not control her undead"
but we look back at Fenris isle and that says very much otherwise.
The island is filled with people who hate the undead.
you kill them and raise them, then 90% of them seconds after you kill them, then literally raise them right away go right into
"Praise sylvanas, All hail the banshee queen"
Yes there is cases of people who had free control over themselves, as some of them do freak out "what have you done to me" but it is suprising these people who seconds ago hated you, are suddenly praising sylvanas.

There is no issue to run into. The clarification by Blizzard is not only newer lore (and newer lore trumps older lore), but is Word of God, the highest level of canon. What we're running into is some people being incapable of dealing with canon when it's inconvenient to them for some inane reason.

And yes we also run into the issue of her dealing with a minion of the old gods to gain immortality, and also her famous line in the undead starting area.

Source for Helya being a minion of the Old Gods. And what famous line during the undead starting area? Sylvanas doesn't even personally appear in Tirisfal, let alone Deathknell. If you are referring to her dialogue with Garrosh in Silverpine, her sarcastically talking shit to Garrosh isn't the grand argument you anti-Sylvanas people want it to be, so stop desperately clinging to it. Even Garrosh realized it for what it is for and called her out on her clever mouth god's sake. And he wasn't exactly the brightest specimen of the Orc species. Imagine what it says about you lot.

The forsaken was once a place for the forsaken to call home, a place for lost undead to join up as one.
now it has become an army she wishes to grow more and more and more.

New Forsaken were being resurrected even before Cata, just on lower scale. And they need to replenish their numbers somehow, that's the primary point of the resurrection..

Think of it this way.
The forsaken was a homeless shelter, a very kind thing, a place for the homeless to go to become part of something.
Now sylvanas is burning peoples houses down, so more people will join her homeless shelter...

Except that homeless shelter was hell-bent on destroying their enemies from the get go. And majority of new Forsaken that we know of came from old graves.

Her charecter i liked when she was treating the forsaken as a home for the undead who broke free of the lich king and were unable to return home, so they needed a new place to call home, and a new family, and that was the forsaken.

But now like the lich king she is forcing more and more people into undead to grow her armies.

Except she isn't forcing anyone. Great reading comprehension right here. You totally grasped what Aucald said. And that kind home you try to conjure up here was always Sylvanas' army first and foremost. And either way, you can't keep building a home forever. By the time Lich King died the home of Forsaken was built and rock solid. At some point you need to shift your focus towards preserving that home. Which Sylvanas did. And which, in case of Azeroth that suffers from a world-ending threat every year, with an occasional world-wide faction war started by the Alliance every now and then on top of that, requires manpower. Which Sylvanas provided.

bassicly i like pre-cata sylvanas because she was about killing the lich king, and building a home for the forsaken
post-cata sylvanas is about building an army so massive no one can threaten her NO ONE.

Yeah, because Sylvanas wanted to be threatened before Lich King died. That's why she developed a superweapon and spent significant manpower to obliterate threats around Forsaken territory. And Forsaken still have always been an army.

[Doffen]

No, they weren't. Quel'thalas was isolationist until the day the orcs burned the forest.

The Troll Wars were a series of conflicts between the forest trolls of the Amani Empire and an alliance of the humans of Arathor and high elves of Quel'Thalas, ending approximately 2,800 years before the coming of the orcs to Azeroth.

[Deleted]

The Troll Wars were a series of conflicts between the forest trolls of the Amani Empire and an alliance of the humans of Arathor and high elves of Quel'Thalas, ending approximately 2,800 years before the coming of the orcs to Azeroth.

And the battle of the Alterac Mountains was the first and only time humans and high elves fought together during the Troll Wars. Since then, there was no more alliance.

You could at least read the rest of the WoWpedia page, the answer was there.

[Mehrunes]

Its regarding you and some other just ignore the fact that they were in alliances for thousands of years. Not spesificially to taurur. I didn't quote him did I?

You know, words and logic.

It's regarding a reply to Tauror, in support of said reply, regarding the topic Tauror was discussing with the poster you quoted. So another weak deflection. Now be a dear and try to spot the difference between "High Elves didn't fight in the First War" and what you said.

You know, words and logic.

Also, they really weren't anyway. Nor does the piece of lore referenced by @Skyduke support it. Not only did the High Elves leave the human to their own devices outside of Dalaran for almost three thousand years, they owed their debt to the kingdom of Arathor and the line of Thoradin and his descendants. They paid their debt by joining the Second War. During the Second War Thoradin's line died out. So not only did they already fulfill their duty by joining the Second War, the events of it made the basis of their debt void anyway. Weirdly enough, they left the humans to their own devices once again shortly after the Second War.

You know, more words and more logic. And actual lore knowledge.

[Doffen]

And the battle of the Alterac Mountains was the first and only time humans and high elves fought together during the Troll Wars. Since then, there was no more alliance.

You could at least read the rest of the WoWpedia page, the answer was there.

Because it wasn't any war anymore for ages? Did you read that?

- - - Updated - - -

It's regarding a reply to Tauror, in support of said reply, regarding the topic Tauror was discussing with the poster you quoted. So another weak deflection. Now be a dear and try to spot the difference between "High Elves didn't fight in the First War" and what you said.

You know, words and logic.

Also, they really weren't anyway. Nor does the piece of lore referenced by @Skyduke support it. Not only did the High Elves leave the human to their own devices outside of Dalaran for almost three thousand years, they owed their debt to the kingdom of Arathor and the line of Thoradin and his descendants. They paid their debt by joining the Second War. During the Second War Thoradin's line died out. So not only did they already fulfill their duty by joining the Second War, the events of it made the basis of their debt void anyway. Weirdly enough, they left the humans to their own devices once again shortly after the Second War.

You know, more words and more logic. And actual lore knowledge.

See above.

"Hey humans, lets fight together against this...eehhh...common enemy?"

Logic, no war between.

Words and logic, you should look it up.

[Deleted]

Because it wasn't any war anymore for ages? Did you read that?

Actually, there were:

- The Gnoll War
- The Gurubashi War
- The First War

So, either Quel'thalas was allied all those years or it was not. It can't be both.

[Doffen]

Actually, there were:

- The Gnoll War
- The Gurubashi War
- The First War

So, either Quel'thalas was allied all those years or it was not. It can't be both.

Yeah, first war, 2800 years later.

[Deleted]

Yeah, first war, 2800 years later.

So they weren't allied for all those years. Thanks for supporting my point all along.

[Aucald]

The issue we run into is blizzard has said "she does not control her undead"
but we look back at Fenris isle and that says very much otherwise.
The island is filled with people who hate the undead.
you kill them and raise them, then 90% of them seconds after you kill them, then literally raise them right away go right into
"Praise sylvanas, All hail the banshee queen"
Yes there is cases of people who had free control over themselves, as some of them do freak out "what have you done to me" but it is suprising these people who seconds ago hated you, are suddenly praising sylvanas.

This behavior is actually explained in-game, however. Newly-raised Forsaken are in a state of mental rage, a kind of single-minded fury that makes them very easy to influence. Sylvanas and her Val'kyr do capitalize on this state when creating new Forsaken shock-troops like the kind you find at Fenris Isle or during the Western Plaguelands quests. If the charge were about Sylvanas manipulating the newly undead I wouldn't argue the point, her and her Val'kyr's manipulations of these shock-troops is rather blatant. But after this state wears off, being by nature temporary, the new Forsaken are offered a choice of service to the Banshee Queen or a return to the grave. Examples exist of both options being taken, which seems to underline that the Forsaken are indeed a free willed people despite the nature of their origins. The Lich King would never offer such a choice, and despite Sylvanas' manipulations she still has to ultimately accede to an individual's desires in the matter of remaining undead.

And yes we also run into the issue of her dealing with a minion of the old gods to gain immortality, and also her famous line in the undead starting area.

The forsaken was once a place for the forsaken to call home, a place for lost undead to join up as one.
now it has become an army she wishes to grow more and more and more.

Minion of the Old Gods? If you mean Helya I don't think there's a firm connection between her and the Old Gods (though I definitely see a connection myself it hasn't been explicitly stated). On this score I think there's too much in the way of plausible deniability - Sylvanas saw Helya as a being with power over life and death (which is true of Helya) and thus able to provide the assistance she desired.

Think of it this way.
The forsaken was a homeless shelter, a very kind thing, a place for the homeless to go to become part of something.
Now sylvanas is burning peoples houses down, so more people will join her homeless shelter...

Her charecter i liked when she was treating the forsaken as a home for the undead who broke free of the lich king and were unable to return home, so they needed a new place to call home, and a new family, and that was the forsaken.

But now like the lich king she is forcing more and more people into undead to grow her armies.

bassicly i like pre-cata sylvanas because she was about killing the lich king, and building a home for the forsaken
post-cata sylvanas is about building an army so massive no one can threaten her NO ONE.

This is true, and I think it's a signal that something about Sylvanas' thinking has been altered by her experiences in "Edge of Night." But it is also true that Sylvanas always viewed the Forsaken as a tool or a means to an end - before the death of Arthas she intended to leverage them as her private army to exact her vengeance on the Lich King. After Arthas' death she had no more reason to exist (in her own eyes), and sought a final end at the summit of Icecrown. She was "saved," however, by the Lich King's original coven of Val'kyr maidens - who shared with her the knowledge of the dark fate awaiting her she dies a true and final death. This changed Sylvanas' approach to the Forsaken, and in "Edge of Night" again she explains her new view in expository fashion: the Forsaken are no longer arrows in quiver to be expended, they are now her shield against said fate. From the outside looking in the position might be viewed as you see it, a more martial tack that seems to demonstrate a growing detachment - but from Sylvanas' own line of thought, revealed in "Edge of Night," the Forsaken are now more important to her than ever (even if that importance is still in the sense that she's using them to her relative advantage).

[azshanna]

because they are filthy ! sylvanase stood against scourge and lk turned her into an undead ! she had no choice ...l8er she stood against lk , deathwing , firelord , garosh and
many other threats while vereesa and alleria where bitchin with their fancy humans ! they ignore their own people just like humans who turned their back to high elves.

and right now we have alleria who is void elf in her own decision without any force ! both vereesa and alleria are more evil than sylvanase ( which i dont consider her an evil one , imo shes just trying to survive and keep her people together in a cruel world)

[Combatbutler]

The elves owed the humans a debt of gratitude for saving their people and ending the first major war since the Sundering and The War of the Ancients, and probably the longest in the History of Warcraft. This debt laid the groundwork for the Alliance and was honored during the Second War when Anduin Lothar, last descendant of the King Thoradin of Arathor, led the Alliance of Lordaeron to war against the Horde.

Straight from wowpedia. That enough proof for you that high elves and humans go way, way back? Or you just don't want to admit their leaders are too proud to admit they fucked up and take their orders from a walking corpse?

Actually no the elves don't owe the humans they needed each other. Without the elves humanity would have been wiped out and vice versa.

[Aquinan]

All orcs are bad.

Blatantly wrong. They have just as many good/bad characters as Alliance races do.

[Doffen]

So they weren't allied for all those years. Thanks for supporting my point all along.

They were in peace, they weren't really fond of each other, but they were in peace. There wasn't really anything to fight for 2800 years. Don't need to be in a war to be an alliance.

Whatever your was, my point was that they have been in previous alliances before the 2nd war. Wich was my comment towards skyduke. Not you. I don't know how many times people have pointed out what I just wrote, then got "hammered" because they were told "wrong".

The Troll Wars were a series of conflicts between the forest trolls of the Amani Empire and an alliance of the humans of Arathor and high elves of Quel'Thalas, ending approximately 2,800 years before the coming of the orcs to Azeroth.
Actual lore. And I don't know if you ignore that, but some here actually do.

[Aucald]

Actually no the elves don't owe the humans they needed each other. Without the elves humanity would have been wiped out and vice versa.

The High Elves did consider that they had an obligation to the Human kingdoms of Arathor, though; an obligation that is underlined and realized when Anduin Lothar (last of the Arathi bloodline with the ability to make good on such a debt) had word sent to the court of Silvermoon to request the aid of the High Elves in the Second War. I agree that both sides essentially did need one-another to finally end the Troll threat in the Eastern Kingdoms, but the Elves were on the verge of losing the war when the alliance with Arathor was struck and much-needed relief poured into Quel'thalas in the form of Human armies.

Since Anasterian himself acknowledges the debt and makes good on it, I think it stands on its own.

[Combatbutler]

The High Elves did consider that they had an obligation to the Human kingdoms of Arathor, though; an obligation that is underlined and realized when Anduin Lothar (last of the Arathi bloodline with the ability to make good on such a debt) came to the court of Silvermoon to request the aid of the High Elves in the Second War. I agree that both sides essentially did need one-another to finally end the Troll threat in the Eastern Kingdoms, but the Elves were on the verge of losing the war when the alliance with Arathor was struck and much-needed relief poured into Quel'thalas in the form of Human armies.

Since Anasterian himself acknowledges the debt and makes good on it, I think it stands on its own.

I'd argue for yes and no, but more for a no I see it rather as a small token of gratitude, considering how reluctant they were to fully commit thousand of years later and the free pass of aid was not for humanity as a whole, but rather a single human bloodline.

[Aucald]

I'd argue for yes and no, but more for a no I see it rather as a small token of gratitude, considering how reluctant they were to fully commit thousand of years later and the free pass of aid was not for humanity as a whole, but rather a single human bloodline.

They were reluctant to accede to the Human kingdom's request that Mages be trained in the Arcane, so I would imagine their reluctance extends from that coupled with the High Elves' general xenophobia. It was also an old debt, and until the Horde came knocking at Quel'thalas' borders the threat of extra-dimensional or alien invaders wasn't taken very seriously by Silvermoon.

[Combatbutler]

They were reluctant to accede to the Human kingdom's request that Mages be trained in the Arcane, so I would imagine their reluctance extends from that coupled with the High Elves' general xenophobia. It was also an old debt, and until the Horde came knocking at Quel'thalas' borders the threat of extra-dimensional or alien invaders wasn't taken very seriously by Silvermoon.

I am really not sure chronicle seems to describe it more as something out of gratitude rather than obligation to be honest.

[Deleted]

They were in peace, they weren't really fond of each other, but they were in peace. There wasn't really anything to fight for 2800 years. Don't need to be in a war to be an alliance.

Whatever your was, my point was that they have been in previous alliances before the 2nd war. Wich was my comment towards skyduke. Not you. I don't know how many times people have pointed out what I just wrote, then got "hammered" because they were told "wrong".

The Troll Wars were a series of conflicts between the forest trolls of the Amani Empire and an alliance of the humans of Arathor and high elves of Quel'Thalas, ending approximately 2,800 years before the coming of the orcs to Azeroth.
Actual lore. And I don't know if you ignore that, but some here actually do.

But they weren't allied, that's the point all this time. Quel'thalas wasn't obligated by any alliance to help the blood of Arathi, even when the same blood of Arathi was in danger during the Gnoll and the Gurubashi Wars. They simply had a debt.

And that isn't "actual lore", that a WoWpedia phrase without the rest of the context.

[Combatbutler]

But they weren't allied, that's the point all this time. Quel'thalas wasn't obligated by any alliance to help the blood of Arathi, even when the same blood of Arathi was in danger during the Gnoll and the Gurubashi Wars. They simply had a debt.

And that isn't "actual lore", that a WoWpedia phrase without the rest of the context.

I really wouldn't say debt, since it was freely given. The elves were under no obligation to give them the get out of trouble card to begin with.

[anaxie]

Why do people say one human?

Kelthuzad and the entire cult of the damned were mostly LIVING humans of lordaeron and dalaran