The Alliance is the evil faction.

[Lemondish]

The War never ended.

Secondary to that, I'm surprised that the Horde consistently gets a pass for the genocidal actions of its leaders, but the moment the Alliance goes on the offensive, they get labeled evil.

The hypocrisy says a lot. Clearly all vestiges of their treachery should be wiped off the face of Azeroth once and for all before they poison any more minds.

[Steampunkette]

Several things are wrong here.

1. The Horde wanted to use the Azerite to destroy the Alliance and the only tried to get it to prevent it, or to fight back. Not to mention the Horde did the same on Draenor. The Alliance was digging for a relic which they could use against the Iron Horde, but the Horde, thinking the Alliance are warmongers like themselves, assumed the Alliance intended to use it against them and attacked them. Hence why we had the battleground Ashran.
2. The war is started by Teldrassil being burned, which is the Horde's action.
3. The Horde is warmongers, always the agressors, the Alliance is the peaseful faction, always the defenders.
You really need to learn your Lore.

- - - Updated - - -



Wrong!
The Horde started the last 2 wars, and all those before. The Horde is aways the agressors!

Varian declared a genocidal war against the Horde during the events of the Assault on Undercity, citing his years as a slave/gladiator as his reason for killing every single "Greenskin". It was Jaina's intervention, teleporting Varian and his forces out of Lordaeron, that delayed things long enough for the Argent Tournament to form a Detente and refocus people on fighting the Lich King.

Varian, however, didn't forget his vow to commit genocide. Neither did Thrall. Thrall stepped down because war was coming and he wasn't a warrior and needed to check in on the elementals while Alliance Soldiers firebombed Camp Taurajo in the first real act of war since the detente began.

It was only through his worry over his son, and understanding of his son's view of peace, that Varian calmed down at the Siege of Orgrimmar.

And now the new war in Battle for Azeroth is being started by the Alliance.

Your position is, at best, untenable, Kenji.

[rda]

Varian declared a genocidal war against the Horde during the events of the Assault on Undercity, ...

If you are looking this far back, and posit that the war has been declared and was just being temporarily delayed, I am not sure why I cannot look back even farther and say that we are still in that war that started with orcs coming through the portal.

[Steampunkette]

The War never ended.

Secondary to that, I'm surprised that the Horde consistently gets a pass for the genocidal actions of its leaders, but the moment the Alliance goes on the offensive, they get labeled evil.

The hypocrisy says a lot. Clearly all vestiges of their treachery should be wiped off the face of Azeroth once and for all before they poison any more minds.

To my knowledge, only Garrosh's "True Horde" has ever tried anything Genocidal, and the rest of the Horde rose up and decimated his Nazi-Allegory ass.

[rda]

LOL, I just looked into what is being presented as the start of the war in this thread - the quest where the Alliance *intelligence unit* obtains data. If wars were starting from things like this, we'd all have been in permanent war.

It's intelligence.

Sylvanas burning Teldrassil *is* an action that can be a start of a war. This can't, by a mile.

[Steampunkette]

If you are looking this far back, and posit that the war has been declared and was just being temporarily delayed, I am not sure why I cannot look back even farther and say that we are still in that war that started with orcs coming through the portal.

The contested statement was that the Horde is -always- the Aggressor.

To which I pointed out that the last two wars were started by the Alliance, and specifically pointed to Varians declaration of War in the Undercity.

The war began at the end of WotLK, ran through Cataclysm, and reached it's end in the Siege of Orgrimmar in Mists. One long, bloody, war.

And now this one, starting with spies, theft, and murder enacted by SI:7.

Yeah. You could reach allll the way back to the first game and say the war never ended, but it did end in WC2 and a new one started in WC3 after years of peace and imprisonment. And -that- war ended with all the sides working together against the Scourge and the Legion, save Darius Proudmoore, who was betrayed by his own daughter. THAT war ended with his death.

Within WoW, there were 4 battlegrounds, 2 horde-instigated, 2 alliance-instigated. And that sort of "Not Quite at War" skirmishing continued through BC until WotLK.

[huth]

And now this one, starting with spies, theft, and murder enacted by SI:7.

Not murder. Assassination, perhaps, but not murder. There's a difference. If any SI:7 agent engaged in murder, he'd likely get suspended for letting personal feelings get in the way of the job.

[Sluvs]

LOL, I just looked into what is being presented as the start of the war in this thread - the quest where the Alliance *intelligence unit* obtains data. If wars were starting from things like this, we'd all have been in permanent war.

It's intelligence.

Sylvanas burning Teldrassil *is* an action that can be a start of a war. This can't, by a mile.

Killing innocent miners and workers is not intelligence gathering. It's murder. Period. If a foreign force kills several workers on real life, that could escalate into war.

[TheFirstOnes]

Both sides have aggressive actions at different times.

The Alliance has, however, started the last two wars.

*Garrosh bombs Theramore*

*The Alliance attacks back*

Everyone: THE ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

*Sylvanas and the Goblins mine a Titan's blood for Global conquest over the Alliance*

*Alliance fights back*

Everyone: ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

..Like...wot?

[Sluvs]

*Garrosh bombs Theramore*

Everyone: THE ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

*Sylvanas and the Goblins mine a Titan's blood for Global conquest over the Alliance*

*Alliance fights back*

Everyone: ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

..Like...wot?

They were mining. That is it. Alliance is not fighting back. The alliance attacking miners and workers is in fact, the first act of agression. That IS the alliance starting something.

[Noram54]

*Garrosh bombs Theramore*

Everyone: THE ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

*Sylvanas and the Goblins mine a Titan's blood for Global conquest over the Alliance*

*Alliance fights back*

Everyone: ALLIANCE STARTED IT!

..Like...wot?

*Garrosh bombs Theramore*

Everyone: Dude, this guy's nuts, think we should get rid of him?

*Sylvanas and the Goblins mine a Titan's blood just like we've been doing for an entire expansion*

*Alliance massacres miners*

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Both sides have aggressive actions at different times.

The Alliance has, however, started the last two wars.

Two? I thought they only started the one in legion.

[Scottyjscizzle]

Being an aggressor doesn't make someone evil, if you take preemptive action to prevent a worse outcome that isn't evil. The Horde has a history of using weapons of mass destruction, so stopping them from obtaining another isn't "evil."

[rda]

Killing innocent miners and workers is not intelligence gathering. It's murder. Period. If a foreign force kills several workers on real life, that could escalate into war.

Intelligence operations involve murdering (better word: killing) innocent people all the time. The reason this does not start wars is that casualties are always minimized, and frequently avoided, and because of that the cost / benefit ratio seems acceptable given that it is symmetric (all parties need information that can only be obtained this way). However unfair that might seem (although in reality, this probably saves more lives than it kills).

[Darkeon]

This thread shows me we need more blind horde fanboys. You guys are being out shined by the craziness of statement of the Alliance fanboys here.

[Steampunkette]

Two? I thought they only started the one in legion.

Varian ends the tentative peace during WotLK by escalating border skirmishes into all out war by declaring his intent to commit genocide and attacking Thrall in the Battle for Undercity. That war continues through Cata and ends in Mists with the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Two in a row for the Alliance.

[Pachycrocuta]

The contested statement was that the Horde is -always- the Aggressor.

To which I pointed out that the last two wars were started by the Alliance, and specifically pointed to Varians declaration of War in the Undercity.

The war began at the end of WotLK, ran through Cataclysm, and reached it's end in the Siege of Orgrimmar in Mists. One long, bloody, war.

And now this one, starting with spies, theft, and murder enacted by SI:7.

Yeah. You could reach allll the way back to the first game and say the war never ended, but it did end in WC2 and a new one started in WC3 after years of peace and imprisonment. And -that- war ended with all the sides working together against the Scourge and the Legion, save Darius Proudmoore, who was betrayed by his own daughter. THAT war ended with his death.

Within WoW, there were 4 battlegrounds, 2 horde-instigated, 2 alliance-instigated. And that sort of "Not Quite at War" skirmishing continued through BC until WotLK.

If you want to cite the Wrathgate as the start of a war that ended with SoO, the blame lies on Sylvanus's people. If not for the Forsaken bombing the combatants fighting the Lich King, Varian never would have attacked Undercity. Sure, it was apparently a faction of the Forsaken aligned with a dreadlord (that Sylvanus kept around), but that information wasn't available to the Alliance.

[rda]

And now this one, starting with spies, theft, and murder enacted by SI:7.

I don't know if I would say that the Horde is always the aggressor, perhaps that's not true if we count all conflicts individually.

But I disagree completely that this killing of goblins is a start of a war. It's an intelligence operation. You don't start a war because of that.

[Sluvs]

Intelligence operations involve murdering innocent people all the time. The reason this does not start wars is that casualties are always minimized, and frequently avoided, and because of that the cost / benefit ratio seems acceptable given that it is symmetric (all parties need information that can only be obtained this way). However unfair that might seem (although in reality, this probably saves more lives than it kills).

[Source Needed]
And my point is that this is an act of aggression and worth responding with force. One that the alliance started, or do you suggest that the horde should endure it in silence?

[Steampunkette]

If you want to cite the Wrathgate as the start of a war that ended with SoO, the blame lies on Sylvanus's people. If not for the Forsaken bombing the combatants fighting the Lich King, Varian never would have attacked Undercity. Sure, it was apparently a faction of the Forsaken aligned with a dreadlord (that Sylvanus kept around), but that information wasn't available to the Alliance.

It was a faction aligned with a dreadlord that attempted to kill Sylvanas in a bloody coup that sent the rest of the Forsaken fleeing the Undercity for fear of being slaughtered.

To say that it's the Horde's actions when it's clearly a splinter group specifically -against- the Horde is foolish.