The Alliance defeated Garrosh at the end of Mist.

[Maljinwo]

It is said by Varian that "even if they could defeat the Horde here", implying it would be an extremely bloody battle,it would take a lot of effort to take Thunder Bluff, the Echo Isles, Undercity and Silvermoon.
That's the key "Even If we could"

IF

[Shrouded]

You mean the True Horde. The Iron Horde came after that.

So we've had the Old Horde, the Horde, the Dark Horde, the Fel Horde, the True Horde and the Iron Horde. Am I missing any?

[tkioz]

Alliance would have won the day (this leaves a foul taste in my mouth. FOR THE HORDE!) but they would have broken themselves in the war that followed. It would have been a M.A.D scenario, and Varian for all his faults knew this.

[Maljinwo]

Alliance would have won the day (this leaves a foul taste in my mouth. FOR THE HORDE!) but they would have broken themselves in the war that followed. It would have been a M.A.D scenario, and Varian for all his faults knew this.

The Horde was vulnerable after the Siege and it is a real possibility tat the Alliance would've conquered Orgrimmar.
But the effort of conquering or at least repelling attacks from every other Horde City would be severe

[sillag]

nothing can beat the faction that has orcs in it. just when you think they cant possibly have any more orcs left after so many are dead it turns out they had like 6 more armies surrounding all your cities. thats the power of the orc cloning machine.

[Maljinwo]

nothing can beat the faction that has orcs in it. just when you think they cant possibly have any more orcs left after so many are dead it turns out they had like 6 more armies surrounding all your cities. thats the power of the orc cloning machine.

Imagine if more than 1 baby survived the baby phase

[Lochton]

Jaina asks Varian to destroy the horde => he must have the pôwer to do so.

Tension and drama when Varian walks towards the horde leader => confirms that he very well has the power to annihilate them

If the heroes who defeated Garrosh were on the Horde side how could Varian threaten to annihilae the Horde? How could Jaina tell Varian to pull the trigger with such mighty heroes present in the room ? After all the Champions of Azeroth are canonically even stronger than Varian himself

Quite clearly what Blizzard tried to tell us is that the Alliance did all the job in SoO and gave the Horde their freedom back, say thank you hordies

We worked together, it wasn't a pure Horde or Alliance victory.

[Jastall]

I find it makes more sense of the Horde defeated him, it means that while they are in a position of weakness in regards to the Alliance they are far from helpless. If Varian believes ending the Horde will cost too many lives, it stands to reason that he believes the Horde is in a position to actively resist him, even if unsuccessfully in the long run.

[MrSaggins]

Not sure if this thread is bait or role-playing.

[huth]

So we've had the Old Horde, the Horde, the Dark Horde, the Fel Horde, the True Horde and the Iron Horde. Am I missing any?

The Treasure Horde *cough*

[Terongor]

Jaina asks Varian to destroy the horde => he must have the pôwer to do so.

Tension and drama when Varian walks towards the horde leader => confirms that he very well has the power to annihilate them

If the heroes who defeated Garrosh were on the Horde side how could Varian threaten to annihilae the Horde? How could Jaina tell Varian to pull the trigger with such mighty heroes present in the room ? After all the Champions of Azeroth are canonically even stronger than Varian himself

Quite clearly what Blizzard tried to tell us is that the Alliance did all the job in SoO and gave the Horde their freedom back, say thank you hordies

We could take that most of them very really worn out after the battle against Garrosh because lots of iron stars, Kor'kron elite during combat, power and creatures from heart of y'sharaaj. When you take account that they little bit earlier had to defeat the paragons of the klaxxi so in lore stand point it still could be either side. Fighting that long takes a huge toll on your body and could easily leave you very worn out and weak.

Extremely worn out fighter are less than useless in war only thing they are good as is cannon fodder or meatshields.

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I brought this very topic up years ago. It didn't make sense then, and it still doesn't make much sense now.

Sylvanas is here, which means that her Val'kyr are more than likely present and ready to revive any Horde who fall in battle, as well as animate fallen soldiers.

Thrall, Baine, and Vol'jin are deadly warriors who can call upon spiritual powers to aid them.

and fifty orc grunts

VS

Varian, who's on even footing with Lor'Themar as the elite warrior

Jaina, who's just one wizard

and fifty Alliance warriors

Given the lineup, it really does not make sense for the cinematic to imply that the Alliance could have won right then and there. Oh yes, the Alliance forces certainly could've broken the Horde at Orgrimmar that day, but to say that Varian and Jaina would've won that specific fight in the Underhold is ludicrous.

Thralls elemental powers where gone at that point because torment they had and the attacks garrosh inflicted on him, also Thrall is weaker warrior than Garrosh and Garrosh couldn't overpower Varian. saying Val'kyrs where there is huge speculation we have zero knowledge also resurrecting strong people causes them to die. sylvanas has four major val'kyrs remaining and resurecting a leader probably would take atleast three of them like in Silverpine. Also Velen could probably purify undeaths Val'kyr revived and cause them to die.

Jaina has staff that has power of the thunder king and is said one of strongest sorceresses ever. Varian could easily defeat Lor'themar(who is mainly an elven ranger not an warrior) with power of Goldrin and his legendary weapons. Also Alliance had Tyrande the favorite child of Elune who held of legions of demons in the war of the ancients. Also they have Vereesa who is atleast skilled ranger as Lor'themar. Also Anduin ressurected his father once before and his was there.

Also those Grunts horde(all elites where part of Kor'kron) had weren't even the elite unlike alliance probably had the elite footsoldiers

So in short strongest of the horde member there was next useless. Alliance had wastly more powerful individuals there. The heroes where battered and worn out and next useless lore-wise at that point.

[Deleted]

We could take that most of them very really worn out after the battle against Garrosh because lots of iron stars, Kor'kron elite during combat, power and creatures from heart of y'sharaaj. When you take account that they little bit earlier had to defeat the paragons of the klaxxi so in lore stand point it still could be either side. Fighting that long takes a huge toll on your body and could easily leave you very worn out and weak.

Extremely worn out fighter are less than useless in war only thing they are good as is cannon fodder or meatshields.

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Thralls elemental powers where gone at that point because torment they had and the attacks garrosh inflicted on him, also Thrall is weaker warrior than Garrosh and Garrosh couldn't overpower Varian. saying Val'kyrs where there is huge speculation we have zero knowledge also resurrecting strong people causes them to die. sylvanas has four major val'kyrs remaining and resurecting a leader probably would take atleast three of them like in Silverpine. Also Velen could probably purify undeaths Val'kyr revived and cause them to die.

Jaina has staff that has power of the thunder king and is said one of strongest sorceresses ever. Varian could easily defeat Lor'themar(who is mainly an elven ranger not an warrior) with power of Goldrin and his legendary weapons. Also Alliance had Tyrande the favorite child of Elune who held of legions of demons in the war of the ancients. Also they have Vereesa who is atleast skilled ranger as Lor'themar. Also Anduin ressurected his father once before and his was there.

Also those Grunts horde(all elites where part of Kor'kron) had weren't even the elite unlike alliance probably had the elite footsoldiers

So in short strongest of the horde member there was next useless. Alliance had wastly more powerful individuals there. The heroes where battered and worn out and next useless lore-wise at that point.

Oh yhe, Thrall's powers were gone there.
I guess he used a toaster from wall mart to toast garrosh on nagrand on the FOLLOWING expansion.

Nice going bud.

[Dastreus]

Combined effort also had you just allowed Thrall to squish Garrys brains out how many lives couldve been saved?

Yes it put in motion the end of the Legion but that wouldve came anyway and iam sure we would still been just as prepared after all if our shitty backwater planet could do it iam sure we couldve done it 6 months from then!

Its funny but had Varian just let Thrall perform the coup de grace he might still be alive!

And Legion wouldn't have happened. In an ironic sense, Garrosh being allowed a "trial" (it woulda been kangaroo court anyway) led to the death of the Legion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Thralls elemental powers where gone at that point because torment they had and the attacks garrosh inflicted on him, also Thrall is weaker warrior than Garrosh and Garrosh couldn't overpower Varian. saying Val'kyrs where there is huge speculation we have zero knowledge also resurrecting strong people causes them to die. sylvanas has four major val'kyrs remaining and resurecting a leader probably would take atleast three of them like in Silverpine. Also Velen could probably purify undeaths Val'kyr revived and cause them to die.

Garrosh was just as, if not faster than Varian in Tides of war, their latest and final duel.

With the annihilation of the hart, the force corrupting the elements were gone, elements that Thrall still used to break the corruption that tried to hold him.

Sylvanas outright calls for her Val'kyr earlier in the seige, they sacrifice themselves for her because they made a pact for her, they don't die resurrecting others.... Not to mention Sylvanas herself can resurrect people too.

Jaina is so powerful that a blood elf magister took her most powerful arcane blast to the shoulder and he staggered it off, Lorthemar trained as a spell breaker as well as a ranger.

Every person in the room is better trained than Vereesa, except maybe Velen in terms of physical combat. I beat Jaina could beat the shit out of her too.

Lorthemar severely outclasses her in rank, experience and skill, his direct superior was the Ranger general after all.


Tyrande's power is fickle, She brought down demons but got injured and overwhelmed by orc archers.

You have Baine who can rip people in half, Vol'jin who is friends with a death loa, and then gallywix who is just a talented bruiser.


This ignores other things like Sylvanas being able to stop casting etc.


Also Garrosh's having an elite force doesn't mean the Horde didn't have one.

To say one side would sweep the other is just silly.

Not to mention, in a future where the Alliance wiped out Orgrimmar, the Horde still managed to burn and destroy much of the Alliance, including Killing Jaina etc, and both factions ended up destroying each other.

[Dimmak]

Garrosh was just as, if not faster than Varian in Tides of war, their latest and final duel.

With the annihilation of the hart, the force corrupting the elements were gone, elements that Thrall still used to break the corruption that tried to hold him.

Sylvanas outright calls for her Val'kyr earlier in the seige, they sacrifice themselves for her because they made a pact for her, they don't die resurrecting others.... Not to mention Sylvanas herself can resurrect people too.

Jaina is so powerful that a blood elf magister took her most powerful arcane blast to the shoulder and he staggered it off, Lorthemar trained as a spell breaker as well as a ranger.

Every person in the room is better trained than Vereesa, except maybe Velen in terms of physical combat. I beat Jaina could beat the shit out of her too.

Lorthemar severely outclasses her in rank, experience and skill, his direct superior was the Ranger general after all.


Tyrande's power is fickle, She brought down demons but got injured and overwhelmed by orc archers.

You have Baine who can rip people in half, Vol'jin who is friends with a death loa, and then gallywix who is just a talented bruiser.


This ignores other things like Sylvanas being able to stop casting etc.


Also Garrosh's having an elite force doesn't mean the Horde didn't have one.

To say one side would sweep the other is just silly.

Not to mention, in a future where the Alliance wiped out Orgrimmar, the Horde still managed to burn and destroy much of the Alliance, including Killing Jaina etc, and both factions ended up destroying each other.

Wolfheart already occured here, Varian is stupid powerful at this point.

[Terongor]

Oh yhe, Thrall's powers were gone there.
I guess he used a toaster from wall mart to toast garrosh on nagrand on the FOLLOWING expansion.

Nice going bud.

Garrosh had dark shamans torment elementals from miles around they couldn't hear thrall at that moment, so thralls elemental powers where kind useless Garrosh knocked him out like in few seconds.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Wolfheart already occured here, Varian is stupid powerful at this point.

Tides take place after Wolfheart, Garrosh was as fast or faster than him after Wolfheart.

[Terongor]

Garrosh was just as, if not faster than Varian in Tides of war, their latest and final duel.

With the annihilation of the hart, the force corrupting the elements were gone, elements that Thrall still used to break the corruption that tried to hold him.

Sylvanas outright calls for her Val'kyr earlier in the seige, they sacrifice themselves for her because they made a pact for her, they don't die resurrecting others.... Not to mention Sylvanas herself can resurrect people too.

Jaina is so powerful that a blood elf magister took her most powerful arcane blast to the shoulder and he staggered it off, Lorthemar trained as a spell breaker as well as a ranger.

Every person in the room is better trained than Vereesa, except maybe Velen in terms of physical combat. I beat Jaina could beat the shit out of her too.

Lorthemar severely outclasses her in rank, experience and skill, his direct superior was the Ranger general after all.


Tyrande's power is fickle, She brought down demons but got injured and overwhelmed by orc archers.

You have Baine who can rip people in half, Vol'jin who is friends with a death loa, and then gallywix who is just a talented bruiser.


This ignores other things like Sylvanas being able to stop casting etc.


Also Garrosh's having an elite force doesn't mean the Horde didn't have one.

To say one side would sweep the other is just silly.

Not to mention, in a future where the Alliance wiped out Orgrimmar, the Horde still managed to burn and destroy much of the Alliance, including Killing Jaina etc, and both factions ended up destroying each other.

True about sylvanas and Val'kyrs but they bring others back only as undeaths and ressurecting powerful individuals takes alot of power. Also Anduins bs light connection is really bad for the undeaths Val'kyr would bring.

At that point didn't have the power of Ra-den taken from throne of thunder.

Well there was gallywix and Gelbing without their mechs.
Yes Garrosh was faster but Varian had more stamina because of Goldrin bs.
True Lor'themar in pure skill probably outclasses.
Hmm wasn't vereesa also straight up under Sylvanas in second war?

My points was those orc grunts behind thrall and them didn't have the experience of Kor'kron. Most Thralls times Kor'kron even sided with Garrosh and they where the elites from the orcs.
Also I didn't meant they would sweep other side silly. My point was that Alliance had little bit more power at the moment, and they would have probably managed to destroy orgri but not dismantle the horde also I don't think they would manage to kill any leader there or maybe gallywix because he is kind a fat....
(Also I don't remeber if Velen was in that room atleast according to wowpedia and wowhead he wasn't)

Also where it was said that Lor'themar trained as a spellbreaker? I only know that he revitalized the order, but nothing else. I know his ingame fighting style is that of spellbreaker yes but ingame doesn't always mean lore.

[Aquamonkey]

Nobody defeated Garrosh. He defeated himself.

[Friendlyimmolation]

True about sylvanas and Val'kyrs but they bring others back only as undeaths and ressurecting powerful individuals takes alot of power. Also Anduins bs light connection is really bad for the undeaths Val'kyr would bring.

I don't think Anduin's connection to the light was as strong then, he also wasn't wearing any armor either.


True, but we don't know how much power it actually provides. You drain the fragment of the fragment into the staff, the power already drained from leishen through out the fight.

Vereesa's never got close to any of her sisters ranks, or Lorthemar, she was a random ranger mook, and she joined recently to fight orc remnants.

Lorthemar isn't a "spell breaker" he was an Sunwell guard, and uses different abilities, a mix of spellbreaker/ranger, so its a mix there, I misspoke on that part.


as for Gallywix, he was fighting just fine despite his weight in one of the blizz short stories.


As for the whole elite guard thing, pretty sure those guys are labeled footmen, not elite soldiers on the Alliance anyways, and there was Kor'kron that left Garrosh.