Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Darktbs]

You do know that ETC and Cho have absolutely nothing in common right? I don't even think ETC is a lore character. Also I'm pretty sure that Cho has zero abilities.



You do know that the concept of Goblins and Gnomes fighting inside mechs is lore-based right? It's not based on mounts, its based on the Tinker heroes, Blackfuse, Gallywix, Gelbin, Gazlowe, Thermaplugg, Crushcogg, Noggenfogger, and several other Goblin and Gnome characters in WoW and other Blizzard media.

How can you manage to not once but twice not respond to what i said?

So what if ETC and cho have no abilities or Lore?Thats not my question.And what does the fucking lore behind Tinkers have to do with my second part?

Tip:Nothing.

[Teriz]

How can you manage to not once but twice not respond to what i said?

So what if ETC and cho have no abilities or Lore?Thats not my question.And what does the fucking lore behind Tinkers have to do with my second part?

Tip:Nothing.

You said that I want the Tinker class because of some fascination with mounts. In actuality, I want the class because of its lore and history within Warcraft.

As for the ETC and Cho, the lack of commonality and lore kinds of puts an axe on the possibility of an expansion being based on either one.

[Rhamses]

Or perhaps we who like the Bard concept actually use our brains instead of just mocking the opposition and realize the class is quite versatile and could perform four out of the five roles in the game (healing, magic spellcaster dps, physical ranged dps, and melee dps), by using a combination of spellsong, archery and swordplay.

If you're combining ETC with Lorewalker Cho and saying that's the foundation for a potential "Bard" class, you're not using your brains very well.

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I think an "other" option would of served better as I'm sure multiple people can come up with something better than generic necromancer and a class based off the lamest warcraft 3 neutral hero.

A lot of folks liked the Tinker hero because he was something very different from the other heroes you could choose from. He continues that tradition in HotS where a lot of people underestimate Gazlowe and are surprised when you go Robo-Goblin and can stand toe-to-toe with tank heroes. Alternatively, you can play him as a ranged hero and zone other players out of objectives and team fights and hit them with powerful explosives and projectiles just as well as any mage.

I think part of the appeal of the Tinker class concept is that it is something very unique from existing classes, and can fill a lot of the voids that the community feels exist in the class lineup.

[RobertMugabe]

The idea of a necromancer class is kinda boring tbh. It's basically a Cloth-wearing unholy dk with 1-2 warlock spells... or basically a warlock with a different artstyle (blizz could at any time give warlocks another greenfire-like questline where they unlock a "scourge" theme)

Tinker on the other Hand could be something new and original, though I don't expect anytime soon.

[Ielenia]

If you're combining ETC with Lorewalker Cho and saying that's the foundation for a potential "Bard" class, you're not using your brains very well.

Another proof of anti-bards not using their brains. We (bard enthusiasts) are not combining Lorewalker Cho and ETC, and we're not saying they're the foundation for the bard class.

Way to shoot yourselves in the foot.

[BedlamBros]

The last 3 classes released by Blizzard were Death Knights, Monks, and Demon Hunters.

The Expansions they were released in:

I hope you notice the trend....

Just curious, since you believe the Tinker falls into this group, what lore character would show up on the box of a Tinker-based expansion?

[judgementofantonidas]

Title says it all. Which class do you think would be a better addition to the class lineup, and which do you think would hinder the existing classes? On one side you have the Tinker, old favorite still waiting to get pulled off the bench. On the other, you have the new upstart that's gaining momentum on various forums and blogs.

Oh, and sorry, there is no "neither" option in this poll.

Still neither. We had to listen to this garbage for years until they released Demon Hunter.

Necromancer is already covered by a number of classes and tinker is covered by a profession.

[Teriz]

Just curious, since you believe the Tinker falls into this group, what lore character would show up on the box of a Tinker-based expansion?

Gazlowe or Gelbin Mekkatorque.

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Still neither. We had to listen to this garbage for years until they released Demon Hunter.

Necromancer is already covered by a number of classes and tinker is covered by a profession.

How is the Tinker class covered by a profession? You can raid and do dungeons and perform class roles (tank/DPS)as a DK, but you can't do raid and dungeons or perform class roles with profession items.

[Darktbs]

How is the Tinker class covered by a profession? You can raid and do dungeons and perform class roles (tank/DPS)as a DK, but you can't do raid and dungeons or perform class roles with profession items.

Transformed.

Let use your stupid ideology that Every class must be from Wc3.It doesn't mean that every hero/unit must become a Class in Wow and not everything will be translated from a RTS to a MMO in the same way.

The Kodo Rider spell turned into a item, the Drums.

When translating the Tinker and the Goblin alchemist they created Engineering and Alchemy and expanded upon the idea.

The shreeder became a mount and vechile combat in some instances(like the demolisher), a profession item and the other stuff has being slowly being developed and launched every expansion.Not everything was available from day-1 but things are being slowly being placed.

Not everything must become a class.See the Pitlord and the Fire lord becoming bosses.Nagas not being a playable race(yet), broken remaining unplayable and so on.

Tinker and the Goblin alchemist, became two professions.

[Teriz]

Transformed.

Let use your stupid ideology that Every class must be from Wc3.It doesn't mean that every hero/unit must become a Class in Wow and not everything will be translated from a RTS to a MMO in the same way.

The Kodo Rider spell turned into a item, the Drums.

The drums were already an item in WC3:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/basic...ermanent.shtml

See bottom item.

When translating the Tinker and the Goblin alchemist they created Engineering and Alchemy and expanded upon the idea.

The shreeder became a mount and vechile combat in some instances(like the demolisher), a profession item and the other stuff has being slowly being developed and launched every expansion.Not everything was available from day-1 but things are being slowly being placed.

Not everything must become a class.See the Pitlord and the Fire lord becoming bosses.Nagas not being a playable race(yet), broken remaining unplayable and so on.

Tinker and the Goblin alchemist, became two professions.

Actually the professions are a representation of the items that you could purchase in WC3. For example, you could purchase Mana and Health potions in item shops, and you could purchase Goblin Sappers, Shredders, and mechanical critters. The professions are representations of that, not hero units.

Further, the Pitlord's abilities were broken apart and placed in the Warlock class. The Firelord's abilities were also broken up and placed in various classes, but largely it became the Shaman Fire Elemental. The Naga Sea Witch's abilities were broken up between Shaman, Mages, and the Hunter class.

So you are vastly incorrect.

The only hero units from WC3 who's abilities don't appear within the existing WoW classes are the Tinker and the Alchemist.

[Ielenia]

Actually the professions are a representation of the items that you could purchase in WC3. For example, you could purchase Mana and Health potions in item shops, and you could purchase Goblin Sappers, Shredders, and mechanical critters. The professions are representations of that, not hero units.

So you are vastly incorrect.

Speaking about being "vastly incorrect", goblin sappers weren't an item, they were an actual unit. So was the shredder. Only the mechanical critters were a purchasable item.

The only hero units from WC3 who's abilities don't appear within the existing WoW classes are the Tinker and the Alchemist.

Not everything needs to be translated into classes. While never openly stated by the developers, it's plenty obvious the goblin alchemist and tinker because the alchemy and engineering professions.

[Teriz]

Speaking about being "vastly incorrect", goblin sappers weren't an item, they were an actual unit. So was the shredder. Only the mechanical critters were a purchasable item.

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that professions are based on the items of WC3, not the hero units.

Not everything needs to be translated into classes. While never openly stated by the developers, it's plenty obvious the goblin alchemist and tinker because the alchemy and engineering professions.

Except every other hero unit was translated into the class lineup except the Tinker and Alchemist. Also its not obvious that those hero units were translated into the professions because none of their abilities or attributes appear in either profession.

[Ielenia]

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that professions are based on the items of WC3, not the hero units.

That is not a fact. Opinions aren't fact, Teriz.

Except every other hero unit was translated into the class lineup except the Tinker and Alchemist. Also its not obvious that those hero units were translated into the professions because none of their abilities or attributes appear in either profession.

Except a significant numbe of them were. Let's look at Goblin Alchemist: his ultimate, "transmute", likely became the alchemy profession's signature transmutation skill (and defunct specialization). As for the Goblin Tinker, we have a golem we can get inside and fight with it, we have several different rockets within the engineering profession, the "engineering upgrade" passive could be linked to the "tinker" ability engineers have to add gadgets to some of their gear, and the 'pocket factory' can be linked to the profession's 'goblin bomb dispenser' which basically does the same thing: produce walking bombs that home in on a target.

Oh, and, by the way, let me preempt you by saying that citing those skills aren't enough to kill a mob of equal level, let me remind you we're talking about translation from RTS to MMO, not judging what can kill what with how much power.

[Traveler Voltin]

for once i am on the side of Teriz

[Darktbs]

The drums were already an item in WC3:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/basic...ermanent.shtml

See bottom item.



Actually the professions are a representation of the items that you could purchase in WC3. For example, you could purchase Mana and Health potions in item shops, and you could purchase Goblin Sappers, Shredders, and mechanical critters. The professions are representations of that, not hero units.

Further, the Pitlord's abilities were broken apart and placed in the Warlock class. The Firelord's abilities were also broken up and placed in various classes, but largely it became the Shaman Fire Elemental. The Naga Sea Witch's abilities were broken up between Shaman, Mages, and the Hunter class.

So you are vastly incorrect.

The only hero units from WC3 who's abilities don't appear within the existing WoW classes are the Tinker and the Alchemist.

The Warsong Drums and the Kodo drums do the same thing, and considering that the items are used to give certain armies buffs present in another.My argument still stands.

But you still haven't tackled my argument.

The units weren't added.Pitlord is not a Hero, is a mob/boss

Firelords are some elementals and bosses.

Nagas aren't a playable race(which baffles the mind considering they are the 5th complete army of wc3)

And Tinkers aren't a class.

And for the amount of stuff Engineering has being develop over the years.It logical to assume where all the creativity is going for.

Hell, the Alchemy profession has somethin called Transmutate, the Goblin alchemist ultimate, while it doesn't turn into gold, it transforms into many other minerals.And the Tinker has something called Engineering Upgrade for godsake.

You can stand in denial, but, it is what it is.

[Teriz]

That is not a fact. Opinions aren't fact, Teriz.

Yet you can trace the professions directly to those items.

Except a significant numbe of them were. Let's look at Goblin Alchemist: his ultimate, "transmute", because the alchemy professions signature transmutation skill (and defunct specialization).

Transmute the hero ability kills an enemy instantly and turns it into gold. The Alchemy item doesn't do that.

As for the Goblin Tinker, we have a golem we can get inside and fight with it, we have several different rockets within the engineering profession, the "engineering upgrade" passive could be linked to the "tinker" ability engineers have to add gadgets to some of their gear, and the 'pocket factory' can be linked to the profession's 'goblin bomb dispenser' which basically does the same thing: produce walking bombs that home in on a target.

Except the above items aren't linked to the hero unit's abilities at all. A mount isn't the equivalent of a mech tank that can destroy enemies and buildings.

Oh, and, by the way, let me preempt you by saying that citing those skills aren't enough to kill a mob of equal level, let me remind you we're talking about translation from RTS to MMO, not judging what can kill what with how much power.

Except every other hero ability translated from the RTS to the MMO DOES have the ability to kill mobs at equal level. They're also similar to the RTS' abilities, often sharing the same name, same icon, and having the same properties. For example, Blizzard from WC3 has the same name, the same icon, and the same properties as its WoW equivalent. Death and Decay has the same name, same icon, and the same properties of its WC3 equivalent. The same can be said for Drain Life, Black Arrow, Metamorphosis, Fan of Knives, Rejuvenation, Banish, Drain Mana, Mana Shield, Rain of Fire, etc, etc, etc.

So, why would the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities be any different?

Of course they're not any different. In reality, the reason we don't see the abilities from those heroes in the game yet is the same reason we didn't see the DK or Brewmaster's abilities in the game until their class equivalents appeared in WoW.

[Darktbs]

Except every other hero ability translated from the RTS to the MMO DOES have the ability to kill mobs at equal level. They're also similar to the RTS' abilities, often sharing the same name, same icon, and having the same properties. For example, Blizzard from WC3 has the same name, the same icon, and the same properties as its WoW equivalent. Death and Decay has the same name, same icon, and the same properties of its WC3 equivalent. The same can be said for Drain Life, Black Arrow, Metamorphosis, Fan of Knives, Rejuvenation, Banish, Drain Mana, Mana Shield, Rain of Fire, etc, etc, etc.

So, why would the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities be any different?

Of course they're not any different. In reality, the reason we don't see the abilities from those heroes in the game yet is the same reason we didn't see the DK or Brewmaster's abilities in the game until their class equivalents appeared in WoW.

Except when the spells are changed for balance, Army of the Dead not requiring bodies, , Death pact lately no longer requiring to kill a pet, Bloodlust being a CD, Earthquake being a AoE not channeled that deals less damage then the Wc3 variant, Death coil damages Undead, Holy Light heals undead, D&D being a Cd in Wc3 and being channeled and deals way more damage while the Wow variant has way more effects, Water elemental being permanent, Fan of Knives having a short Cd and applying poison, Black arrow summoning the undead after shot-not after the enemy killed and applies a dot.

So why i may ask, is so farfetch to see that Transmutate would not give actual gold because that would break the economy, but instead Transmutate does what the name suggests, turn things into others.

You're in denial thats really apparent.

[Teriz]

Except when the spells are changed for balance, Army of the Dead not requiring bodies, , Death pact lately no longer requiring to kill a pet, Bloodlust being a CD, Earthquake being a AoE not channeled that deals less damage then the Wc3 variant, Death coil damages Undead, Holy Light heals undead, D&D being a Cd in Wc3 and being channeled and deals way more damage while the Wow variant has way more effects, Water elemental being permanent, Fan of Knives having a short Cd and applying poison, Black arrow summoning the undead after shot-not after the enemy killed and applies a dot.

So why i may ask, is so farfetch to see that Transmutate would not give actual gold because that would break the economy, but instead Transmutate does what the name suggests, turn things into others.

Because those balance alterations don't change the core of the ability. Also you're ignoring that many of those abilities entered WoW almost exactly like their WC3 equivalents.

For example, let's look at Death Pact:

WoW version (WotLK)

Death Pact
Sacrifices an undead minion, healing the Death Knight for 40% of <his/her> maximum health.

WC3 version:

Death Pact
Kills a target friendly unit, giving a percentage of its hit points to the Death Knight.


That's the same ability.

Let's look at Transmute:

Transmute (WC3 ability)

Kills a target unit instantly, transforming it into gold which is added to your available gold! Transmute cannot be used on Heroes, or creeps above level 5.

Transmute (Profession)

Transform one type of mineral into another type of mineral.

Not even close to the same thing.

Now clearly some abilities like Bloodlust or Earthquake have to be altered to fit into a MMO format. Death Pact had to be changed slightly because you don't have multiple units under your command, and its doubtful that your teammate would appreciate you insta-killing him. Which is why Death Pact was changed from killing a friendly unit to your undead minion. However, despite the fact that Bloodlust and Earthquake was changed, their core is still intact. Bloodlust still increased the speed of your attacks and Earthquake was still an AoE that damaged and slowed/stunned targets.

It's also important to note that Bloodlust, Earthquake, Death Pact, Death Coil, Fan of Knives, and other spells that you mentioned still retain their icon, their name, and their general ability. You would have us believe that for some reason, the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities are hidden within the professions with different names, different icons, and different general ability. Why? Because you and Ielenia would have us believe that (for some reason) Blizzard views the Goblin heroes differently than every other hero in WC3.

It's pure nonsense.

You're in denial thats really apparent.

Funny, I could say the same about you.

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The Warsong Drums and the Kodo drums do the same thing, and considering that the items are used to give certain armies buffs present in another.My argument still stands.

No it doesn't. The War Drums were already in WC3 as an item, and the profession drums do the exact same thing as the WC3 item did. Thus, the profession items are based on the WC3 item, not the WC3 combat unit.

But you still haven't tackled my argument.

The units weren't added.Pitlord is not a Hero, is a mob/boss

Firelords are some elementals and bosses.

Nagas aren't a playable race(which baffles the mind considering they are the 5th complete army of wc3)

Did you miss the part where I addressed this? While the heroes themselves didn't turn into classes, their abilities were dispersed into the class lineup:

Pitlord abilities:

Rain of Fire: Warlocks
Cleave: Warriors
Howl of Terror: Warlocks
Doom: Warlocks

Firelord:
Soul Burn: Warlock (name only)
Incinerate: Warlock (name only)
Became Fire Elemental/Ragnaros

Naga Sea Witch abilities:
Forked Lightning: Shaman
Mana Shield: Mage
Frost Arrows: Hunter

Again, the Tinker and Alchemist abilities are the only heroes whose abilities are completely absent from the class lineup.

Just like the Brewmaster and DK before it.

Hell, the Alchemy profession has somethin called Transmutate, the Goblin alchemist ultimate, while it doesn't turn into gold, it transforms into many other minerals.

Which means its not the same ability.

And the Tinker has something called Engineering Upgrade for godsake.

Yes, a passive that enhances its abilities and move speed. No one is doubting the Tinker is a type of engineer, just like the Enhancement Shaman is a type of warrior.

[Ielenia]

Yet you can trace the professions directly to those items.

Just like you can trace the professions directly to those two neutral WC3 heroes. Again, opinions are not fact.

Transmute the hero ability kills an enemy instantly and turns it into gold. The Alchemy item doesn't do that.

You're really grasping at straws, are you not? Transmutation is transmutation. An alchemist doing transmutation is an alchemist doing transmutation.

Except the above items aren't linked to the hero unit's abilities at all. A mount isn't the equivalent of a mech tank that can destroy enemies and buildings.

Ditto above. You're grasping at straws. You're looking for a 1:1 translation when not all abilities have gone through said 1:1 translation from the RTS to the MMO, even when they become class abilities. See: Drunken Brawler, which you insist became the WoW monk's "elusive brawler" ability.

Except every other hero ability translated from the RTS to the MMO DOES have the ability to kill mobs at equal level.

When they're translated into classes, yes. But the goblin alchemist and goblin tinker obviously weren't translated into classes, but into player professions.

They're also similar to the RTS' abilities, often sharing the same name, same icon, and having the same properties.

And that's the problem with your arguments: you want 1:1 translations, even when the game itself shows that not everything is a 1:1 translation. You don't care about concepts.

For example, Blizzard from WC3 has the same name, the same icon, and the same properties as its WoW equivalent. Death and Decay has the same name, same icon, and the same properties of its WC3 equivalent. The same can be said for Drain Life, Black Arrow, Metamorphosis, Fan of Knives, Rejuvenation, Banish, Drain Mana, Mana Shield, Rain of Fire, etc, etc, etc.

Metamorphosis in WC3 gives the DH extra hit points and ranged auto-attack. In WoW, for DPS it just increases haste and gives you life steal. Not even close to being the same thing. For tank, it increases hit points and armor, and grants resource regeneration. So 1/3 of the original RTS abilty.

[Teriz]

Just like you can trace the professions directly to those two neutral WC3 heroes. Again, opinions are not fact.

How when none of their abilities appear in either profession?

You're really grasping at straws, are you not? Transmutation is transmutation. An alchemist doing transmutation is an alchemist doing transmutation.

Which is like saying Frost bolt is the same as Shadow bolt. A bolt is a bolt right?

Ditto above. You're grasping at straws. You're looking for a 1:1 translation when not all abilities have gone through said 1:1 translation from the RTS to the MMO, even when they become class abilities. See: Drunken Brawler, which you insist became the WoW monk's "elusive brawler" ability.

Where did I say I was looking for a 1:1 translation? I'm looking for at least some level of approximation to the abilities in question. The engineering items you listed don't even share the name of the Tinker ability, much less the ability perimeters. Why would all the other heroes from WC3 have abilities that translate nearly 1:1 but for some reason the Goblin heroes abilities dont even share the same names with the items in question?

When they're translated into classes, yes. But the goblin alchemist and goblin tinker obviously weren't translated into classes, but into player professions.

Again, how is that the case when none of their abilities appear in either profession?

And that's the problem with your arguments: you want 1:1 translations, even when the game itself shows that not everything is a 1:1 translation. You don't care about concepts.

Except the Engineering items you listed don't even share the same concept. A manual Bomb Dispenser for example isn't the same concept as a factory that automatically produces robots.

Metamorphosis in WC3 gives the DH extra hit points and ranged auto-attack. In WoW, for DPS it just increases haste and gives you life steal. Not even close to being the same thing. For tank, it increases hit points and armor, and grants resource regeneration. So 1/3 of the original RTS abilty.

See the original Warlock ability from WotLK which more closely resembled the WC3 ability. The current DH ability has more in common with the HotS version.

However it's important to remember that the concept (transforming into a demon) is the same.