Class changes blog and Demo

[Feali]

With Blizzard class designers? Oh yes it can. Much, much worse.

At least Celestalon is gone.

[Mashnakh]

I miss those times where I could be dangerous....https://goo.gl/images/mRfBxV

[luckydevours]

Being in Meta, juggling Shadowbolt with Incinerate (Molten Core proc) and Soul Fire (Decimate buff)! Those were the days of former glory ...

[mkultra55]

I was happy when they said Demo was going to be more of a Summoner spec but the implementation was horrible. They're so afraid of passive DPS we got screwed with DE.

Some changes I'd like to see.....

All summons be instant cast (HoG, Dreadstalkers,etc) since our Builder is already a hard cast throttle.
DE changed to be a CD ala Pillars of Frost with a 1 min CD.
Demons with unique Group Buffs similar to BM Pets.

[oathy]

First build. The very first. First. None before it. Lots after it.

Sadly I learned in WOD. when 1st builds are mentioned for locks it tends to stay that way.
My main lock is a shade under being 960 level. yesterday a rogue basically killed me with one strike.
it just summed up how messed up the class is.

Until someone on the dev team actually loves the lock class and understands how the specs work
nothing is going to change. You can see its there but they don't understand how to get the class
moving in the right direction anymore.

If there's one class that does need massive changes its the locks.
when you keep hearing "not planning really big changes" it doesn't bode well

[Xanatas]

I was happy when they said Demo was going to be more of a Summoner spec but the implementation was horrible. They're so afraid of passive DPS we got screwed with DE.

Some changes I'd like to see.....

All summons be instant cast (HoG, Dreadstalkers,etc) since our Builder is already a hard cast throttle.
DE changed to be a CD ala Pillars of Frost with a 1 min CD.
Demons with unique Group Buffs similar to BM Pets.

me too

Demonic empowered need to change or be deleted, and i hope in a change of mastery. Old demonic knowledge was perfect and fit.

[Werst]

Demo became WAY too mired in "class fantasy" to the point it was functionally unplayable and seldom enjoyable even for the die hards. They know they screwed up on a clean slate but where to from here? They will have their own creative direction they are keeping close to their vest for now so we can't really comment one way or the other. They say they want summoner direction but how do we go there without A) copying BM or B) stepping on DH/old class fantasy or C) making the same mistakes all over again. I tend to think blizz is likely to do C so here is how NOT to do that:

Get over the uber long ramp up relative to live.
Get over the immobility relative to live.

I know the mere notion of a casting in motion lock gives people MoP PTSD but look at BM and the meta game status now. The nature of the meta game and how a summoner works a mobile caster of pets is hardly out of line. Without seeing a complete toolkit any statement is incomplete but again "relative to live" demo could have full mobility and it wouldn't be out of line compared to many.

I also suggest having more mutually exclusive summons that each have benefits/weaknesses. They should be instant and without undue complexity to get out and at their functional normal. No stacking buffs and debuffs crap unless its a cooldown. Accept that pet AI is its own throttle and advantage (derpy vs movement/etc) so a summoner must work within those constraints and don't let class fantasy "tax" bleed into this aspect of the class.

I would rather see a summoner with summon charges reduced by haste, pet attack speed/energy improved by haste, than hardcasting imp mother turret. That model isn't fun regardless of the numbers and shouldn't need high numbers to make it played. Demonwrath isn't a bad AoE and wouldn't even be a terrible filler (perhaps with a mild tweak) ala blood boil/blood DK from awhile back if they are dead set on shadowbolt being a affliction thing again. In broad strokes an all instant summoner would be more stat neutral scaling wise vs being so haste addicted.

I get people hear the words "instants" and "warlock" and freak out but really, what would it take to get demo to a place you WANT to play it in raids, pvp, and WQ for its mechanics? Numbers can't be the crutch to get us to play or not play something. Since we have had two expacs in a row of "we F'd up demo and would prefer you didn't play it..." perhaps its time demo had gameplay that was simply fun?

I mean I know demo has been the historic skillcap if not "Rube Goldberg" spec...it was nice to showcase you could juggle all its many gears and knobs (MWC pet twisting days, UVLS days, on through this expac) demo has been almost something to show off you could do it as much as anything else. Sure the top percentile could do it but even doing so was often frustrating or just simply more effort for less result.

Fun should be the first goal of the new demo. Make people want to play the mechanics.

[Angrie]

Demo became WAY too mired in "class fantasy" to the point it was functionally unplayable and seldom enjoyable even for the die hards. They know they screwed up on a clean slate but where to from here? They will have their own creative direction they are keeping close to their vest for now so we can't really comment one way or the other. They say they want summoner direction but how do we go there without A) copying BM or B) stepping on DH/old class fantasy or C) making the same mistakes all over again. I tend to think blizz is likely to do C so here is how NOT to do that:

Get over the uber long ramp up relative to live.
Get over the immobility relative to live.

I know the mere notion of a casting in motion lock gives people MoP PTSD but look at BM and the meta game status now. The nature of the meta game and how a summoner works a mobile caster of pets is hardly out of line. Without seeing a complete toolkit any statement is incomplete but again "relative to live" demo could have full mobility and it wouldn't be out of line compared to many.

I also suggest having more mutually exclusive summons that each have benefits/weaknesses. They should be instant and without undue complexity to get out and at their functional normal. No stacking buffs and debuffs crap unless its a cooldown. Accept that pet AI is its own throttle and advantage (derpy vs movement/etc) so a summoner must work within those constraints and don't let class fantasy "tax" bleed into this aspect of the class.

I would rather see a summoner with summon charges reduced by haste, pet attack speed/energy improved by haste, than hardcasting imp mother turret. That model isn't fun regardless of the numbers and shouldn't need high numbers to make it played. Demonwrath isn't a bad AoE and wouldn't even be a terrible filler (perhaps with a mild tweak) ala blood boil/blood DK from awhile back if they are dead set on shadowbolt being a affliction thing again. In broad strokes an all instant summoner would be more stat neutral scaling wise vs being so haste addicted.

I get people hear the words "instants" and "warlock" and freak out but really, what would it take to get demo to a place you WANT to play it in raids, pvp, and WQ for its mechanics? Numbers can't be the crutch to get us to play or not play something. Since we have had two expacs in a row of "we F'd up demo and would prefer you didn't play it..." perhaps its time demo had gameplay that was simply fun?

I mean I know demo has been the historic skillcap if not "Rube Goldberg" spec...it was nice to showcase you could juggle all its many gears and knobs (MWC pet twisting days, UVLS days, on through this expac) demo has been almost something to show off you could do it as much as anything else. Sure the top percentile could do it but even doing so was often frustrating or just simply more effort for less result.

Fun should be the first goal of the new demo. Make people want to play the mechanics.

I think the issue is with fantasy immersion. Yes, the middle spec has ALWAYS been called Demon-ology. Outlaw has proven that the fantasy can change. Honestly, the warlock class IS the demon fantasy... naming the spec demonology is redundant.

Personally, they should scrap the spec name and call it "Dark Arts".

Most summons would be mild cooldowns (think observer and summon grimoire). Demonbolt baseline, shadowbolt clone, row a talents to modify what it does, (Summon Imps, Dogs, Boost Perm pet). Hand of Guldan still be a shard spender, instant cast (bring back the dot).

Get Rid of DE and Dogs.

Revamp Doom so it actually does damage since most mobs die before it does anything. I kinda wish Doom was like "Frost Bomb" in that each cast of Demonbolt/HoG would expel an aoe around the target and when the "DoT" expires it explodes for a % of the total damage done, but only to the target it is on. This would give a good AoE as well as burst damage to priority targets.

Most specs have 4 buttons to press and this is where we'd be lacking. Usually a Debuff or "timer" is what is in order. I actually think, Haunt should be made baseline for this spec but use the name Chaos Wave (Use the Chaos Wave graphic from our old Meta form). Instant cast nuke that boosts damage done to the target.

Lastly Mastery. I think it's pretty simple to think of a new mastery with what is above. Mastery: Doom. each point of mastery increases the damage expelled by Doom.

Something to think about.

[Feali]

Get Rid of DE and Dogs.

Honestly DE is such a weird spell. There's no other ability where I feel like I literally casted for nothing.

[Biomega]

It screams bad design, have to agree. It basically makes you cast twice to get the same effect, summoned demons. Clunky and convoluted. Why not make the demons stronger from the get-go and avoid all this?

[kaid]

If they keep the dogs they need to be cast like the BM hunter dire pet thing and be instant cast. I would not mind them if I am not taking a lot of cast time to wind up to get them out into play. In PVP it works that way and it makes them a lot more fun to use.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly DE is such a weird spell. There's no other ability where I feel like I literally casted for nothing.

I agree it is just so disconected with what it does. I would be okay with it if it was a self buff on you and not the pets. That way you could throw out multiple sets of pets in its duration without to much problem and then you would have an easier way to tell when it is up and when it needs to be recast. Due to the way it works you wind up having to just cast it after every set of pets basically which is annoying as hell.

[Deleted]

Oringinally DE made sense, it was a cooldown with charges (if memory serves). Then for no reason at all it was changed into the abomination it is now.

[oathy]

hunters can tame just about anything.
when you think of the wide array of demons within the Game its utterly insane a Demo Lock
cant have the same ability. It would give the spec a huge shift away from the other specs,
Reading the other thread, It does seem Destruct locks are getting soulfire back (as a talent)

[netherflame]

If they just removed lifetap and DE the spec would be fine.

Lifetap is a boring spell, especially since other DD casters don't ever worry about mana.....

IMO, turn the spec into a tank where you fuse with different types of demons temporarily to handle different situations. Imp can be a rotational ability, Voidwalker and felhunter could be the different sources of specific active mitigation, Infernal and Doomguard for the cooldowns where they'd be used for certain fight timings, unfortunately I have no idea for Succubus. Obviously its not completely filled out but it keeps the demon element in the space but also allows for some growth in the spec.

We need less DD classes and more tanks and most people I talked to really actually enjoyed the Dark Apotheosis time that warlocks had where they could tank.

Ex;
Imp - self heal
Voidwalker - tanking physical damage
Succubus - ???
Felhunter - tanking magical Damage

Infernal - Radiate fire damage at high threat levels.
Doomguard - Cripple an enemy to reduce its damage

[Feali]

Lifetap is a boring spell, especially since other DD casters don't ever worry about mana.....

Life Tap is a talent in BfA which gives you 1 Soul Shard for 15% of your Health. 3 charges, 30 second recharge.

[Seezer]

I agree, Meta or bust. It was the most fun I’ve ever had in WoW

Yeah bring Meta back with Demon Leaping into melee for immolation aura. And hellfire. Bring that shit back. But this is what we get when people need a new class every other expac. Demon Hunters watered down class has so little fitting in the game that they have to take big abilities from other classes.

[Werst]

So little released hints that blizz is probably having to do a big time redo on demo. Until then major wishlists or suggestions are pretty hard to go on. One thing that would make sense is having tiers of demons that interact. Some buff the longterm damage, some may be for burst, either way it makes for the capability of a well rounded and interesting toolkit that could compete with many specs. For now, just sit back and hope they learn from this expac and aren't too wrapped up in all the shortcomings (class fantasy) they believe ALL lock specs must have. That prejudice is what held back demo from being fun this time, and will again if they let it.

Being I'm one of the old timers against shadowbolt coming back to affliction I'd prefer to see it stay in demo but if it is coming to affliction then demo needs a new filler. Demonwrath was a fine filler, just needed to actually hurt. Problem was it couldn't be buffed or it would soon pass shadowbolt which was throttled due to the summoner stacking ad infinitum angle. HoG was never a source of damage or really anything but a glorified debuff applicator. For something you built up to so much I kind of felt like it was anticlimactic. Full resource dump for.....poof 4 imps?! No time to think...gotta cast like a meth addicted hamster or I'll fall behind cuz this spec is such a haste itemization issue. HoG should hit far harder...not AoE chaosbolt but closer to it than feather-butt-tickler it is now. Also important it hits hard if we are loosing TKC.

Demonbolt was a good idea but when it was outscaled by SC so soon it should have been a red flag the spec needed retuning. People weren't exactly rushing to play it at any point this expansion nor were there any "nerf OP" calls, certainly far less than present day aff. Depending on what blizz does with the pets side of things could be a good mechanic to keep around, though perhaps more in a TKC/HP scaling way?

The observer was under rated IMO but still a poor man's version of what others got for less. Probably because others had things like eye beam that did the same (or more) damage but compressed into a much shorter time span with less set up, cooldown, or resource cost. Demo's version had to trade more than others for a version that turned out to be functionally inferior in most situations that mattered. Its not a bad skill, pet, or idea...definitely something I wouldn't mind seeing going forward but its power is closer to a phantom singularity or cataclysm. A good aoe button to press but not a level 100 skill. Never going to be as good as something that is bursty and should be tuned accordingly. It feels in keeping with a demonic summoner though and as such should probably stick around if that is the direction we are going.

Blizz did the necromancer D3 reasonably well. Perhaps they are considering a demonic model closer to that but trying to make the translation work?

[Drakile]

Damn I was hoping demo would've got at least a passing mention, nope just survival hunters. The only time I remember Blizz responding to Warlocks directly was when the locks spammed the shit out of a live QnA because we were borderline ignored.

[Crimsonfiend76]

I think the issue is with fantasy immersion. Yes, the middle spec has ALWAYS been called Demon-ology. Outlaw has proven that the fantasy can change. Honestly, the warlock class IS the demon fantasy... naming the spec demonology is redundant.

Personally, they should scrap the spec name and call it "Dark Arts".

Most summons would be mild cooldowns (think observer and summon grimoire). Demonbolt baseline, shadowbolt clone, row a talents to modify what it does, (Summon Imps, Dogs, Boost Perm pet). Hand of Guldan still be a shard spender, instant cast (bring back the dot).

Get Rid of DE and Dogs.

Revamp Doom so it actually does damage since most mobs die before it does anything. I kinda wish Doom was like "Frost Bomb" in that each cast of Demonbolt/HoG would expel an aoe around the target and when the "DoT" expires it explodes for a % of the total damage done, but only to the target it is on. This would give a good AoE as well as burst damage to priority targets.

Most specs have 4 buttons to press and this is where we'd be lacking. Usually a Debuff or "timer" is what is in order. I actually think, Haunt should be made baseline for this spec but use the name Chaos Wave (Use the Chaos Wave graphic from our old Meta form). Instant cast nuke that boosts damage done to the target.

Lastly Mastery. I think it's pretty simple to think of a new mastery with what is above. Mastery: Doom. each point of mastery increases the damage expelled by Doom.

Something to think about.

I like those ideas... I know we will most likely never get meta back, but I'd love to see hellfire / chaos wave again (even soul fire if it wasn't already moved over to destro). From what I've seen of the other 2 alpha builds of affliction and destruction, their aoe has been nerfed, so I would gladly welcome a more aoe friendly spec, at the risk of borrowing a little from the beast master hunter.

[Nevrex]

I simply don't trust blizzard to actually work on the spec anymore. It feels like they don't care and just wait with it a week before the release of the expansion.

The spec in legion became such a joke. Having to cast empowerment every time you summon a pet + your summons are critters that disappear before you can generate enough shards for the next pack. In additon, it feels like you are working your ass off for your demons...it should be the other way around.

I rather have quality over quantity. Give me the ability to summon less pets but stronger. When I summon a pet, I want to feel that it was worth it.
Right now you summon a "legion" of weak pets that hit less than a single affliction dot and last for a few seconds.

Lastly, just because the spec revolves around summoning, it doesn't mean that our abilities should only be summons. I want to cast spells as well.