[Spoilers] Battle for Lordaeron cutscenes revealed

[Friendlyimmolation]

They were probably built at the ruins of Brill, which at the time of the siege of Lordaeron is an Alliance encampment.

It still wouldn't answer t he question as to why the Horde didn't D-day their beach.

It reeks of plot before thought, just as I am sure the burning of Teldrassil will as well.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

I understand that is alpha and many things a due to change.

But why so many god damn paladins at the cutscenes

Because they're invading a city predominantly occupied by the undead, who are susceptible to the Light?

[Polybius]

Wait... are there flowers before UC elevator ruins? I can't remember the last time I visited UC so can someone tell me if they are in game?

Flowers to mourn Sylvanas' dead conscience. Inb4 Arrashi enrages.

[Mehrunes]

Can't answer that - as I said above, perhaps "Before the Storm" will explain more. I would imagine they sweeped the Tirisfal shoreline clean with destroyers beforehand, landing their siege forces and backing it up with engineered or arcane supplemental. We've not really seen anything before the major of Undercity, so we're basically casting stones in the darkness to scotch the details from point A to point B. The timeline too isn't a known quantity, so perhaps the engagement has gone on much longer than the cinematic makes us privy to and we're just watching its culminating battle. Since the Alliance is apparently pushed back and unable to hold the territory they've otherwise sacked I would imagine their forces are fatigued from previous hard fighting.

There are multiple problems with that. First of all, beach landing in a fortified position is a bloodbath in making. Especially since the entire Horde was already prepared for the attack. Secondly, the shoreline in question gives a bit of a high ground further in-land for the Horde. Which is a major advantage on top of the previous advantage. Add palisades and stuff and the Alliance is going to get fucked. Hell, given Sylvanas' obsession with avoiding death and her low involvement in world affairs between 4.0 and 7.0, she should have spent that time fortifying the shit out of any potential vulnerability. So this area shouldn't have just makeshit palisades, it should be walled off.

And the idea of a prolonged siege creates further issue in the light of data we already have. We do know Alliance is forced away. We do know they try to bunker in Arathi to hold off the Blood Elves from going to Tirisfal (somehow, because Arathi is apparently on the way from Quel'thalas to UC). So how comes they couldn't arrive in time to stab the Alliance in the back while they were busy with a siege? Especially if the lack of Blood Elves in datamined scenario (or even the Horde faction poster IIRC) means they aren't in UC en masse. Especially if v2 the claims about Alliance losing half of its force I've been seeing being thrown around lately are actually true.

The "town in a box", although it is comedic, is used multiple times - once during the Goblin opening quests and again in the Twilight Highlands. I bring it up because it's the same level of engineering feat required to explain the siege towers (in part), and it's older technology - a Gnomish variant of the same would probably be more stable and capable of being replicated then fielded. As for "infeasable," well is it any more or less feasible than arcano-mechnical constructs like the Vindicaar or Light-based teleportation arrays? I don't know about scales of caliber for arguments, but these thing do exist - you can't really just handwave them away to prove your own point.

The reasoning of "this infeasible thing exists so this other infeasible thing has to be possible as well (while conflating Naaru tech or outright magic with ultimately still rudimentary siege weaponry because reasons)" is illogical. And you're the one making a positive claim here. So yes, I can handwave it away because of a) its lack of logic and b) Hitchen's razor.

I don't think anyone here is a military tactician or genius - I know I'm not, though I am something of a history buff when it comes to wars and their fighting. My comment about their engineering was to point that there was a complexity to them that simply belies your ordinary bulky and otherwise run of the mill siege equipment. I don't know if that has anything to do with the possibility that they've been constructed in a modular fashion, or their deployment aided by Gnomish engineering, but it's in the realm of possibility. It's also possible that a bunch of Human mages pooled their resources together and teleported the things from Stormwind or elsewhere on Azeroth. Jaina's present at the field of battle, so they probably have the Arcane oomph necessary to manage it.

I was referring mostly to the overall scenario as a whole, not the siege towers per se (I mean, including towers, but they are ultimately just one piece of the mountain of dogshit this cenario is) and made it as sort of a PS (since it was after a final argument on siege towers). Forgot to paragraph that sentence. My bad there. Though them having internal mechanisms makes modularity less likely if anything. Because a normal siege tower is just several levels of relatively empty space. Stacking modular "floors" on top of each other would be much easier than trying to make all the mechanical junk from each module click with each other.

[Aucald]

There are multiple problems with that. First of all, beach landing in a fortified position is a bloodbath in making. Especially since the entire Horde was already prepared for the attack. Secondly, the shoreline in question gives a bit of a high ground further in-land for the Horde. Which is a major advantage on top of the previous advantage. Add palisades and stuff and the Alliance is going to get fucked. Hell, given Sylvanas' obsession with avoiding death and her low involvement in world affairs between 4.0 and 7.0, she should have spent that time fortifying the shit out of any potential vulnerability. So this area shouldn't have just makeshit palisades, it should be walled off.

We don't know if the Horde was already prepared for the attack or not - nothing about the cinematic can tell us that, and considering that much of the Horde might've been arrayed in the Kalimdor campaign (e.g. against Teldrassil) it may indeed have been a surprise body-swerve from a military perspective. With that in mind, we don't know about whether or not the Forsaken had defensive fortifications along the coastlines. They don't have any such defenses currently (insofar as in-game maps and terrain show) for reasons unknown. I would also expect the Forsaken to have fortified their holdings but there's no evidence of it thus far, so it remains to be seen if it will prove the case in BfA or in "Before the Storm."

And the idea of a prolonged siege creates further issue in the light of data we already have. We do know Alliance is forced away. We do know they try to bunker in Arathi to hold off the Blood Elves from going to Tirisfal (somehow, because Arathi is apparently on the way from Quel'thalas to UC). So how comes they couldn't arrive in time to stab the Alliance in the back while they were busy with a siege? Especially if the lack of Blood Elves in datamined scenario (or even the Horde faction poster IIRC) means they aren't in UC en masse. Especially if v2 the claims about Alliance losing half of its force I've been seeing being thrown around lately are actually true.

I'm not sure - we're missing the data to make good speculation about exactly how the campaign goes down, for better or worse. I would imagine the Undercity battle is the product of an Alliance pincer movement - having established a redoubt in the Arathi Highlands they then bring down the naval armada held in reserve to conduct a surprise attack on the Undercity. The siege equipment we've been discussing may have been transferred from there, the two pincers of the assault meeting at the Undercity to sack it. Of course that leads to the question as to how they moved through Hillsbrad and Silverpine, but again we lack the appropriate info to speak to that in specific.

The reasoning of "this infeasible thing exists so this other infeasible thing has to be possible as well (while conflating Naaru tech or outright magic with ultimately still rudimentary siege weaponry because reasons)" is illogical. And you're the one making a positive claim here. So yes, I can handwave it away because of a) its lack of logic and b) Hitchen's razor.

There's no missing logic - the technology exists, the engineers or specialists who could achieve it are part of the Alliance (e.g. Dwarves, Gnomes, Lightforged Draenei, Magi, etc.), and more powerful and/or versatile applications of said technologies have been demonstrated. Is that indeed what happened? I don't know, no one does as of yet, I'm only arguing that it is within the realm of possibility. *That* is pretty much conclusively shown, I believe - there's nothing illogical about its presence nor the idea that the Alliance would leverage it in such an important engagement as an assault on an enemy capitol.

I was referring mostly to the overall scenario as a whole, not the siege towers per se (I mean, including towers, but they are ultimately just one piece of the mountain of dogshit this cenario is) and made it as sort of a PS (since it was after a final argument on siege towers). Forgot to paragraph that sentence. My bad there. Though them having internal mechanisms makes modularity less likely if anything. Because a normal siege tower is just several levels of relatively empty space. Stacking modular "floors" on top of each other would be much easier than trying to make all the mechanical junk from each module click with each other.

Overcomplexity is in keeping with Gnomish and even Dwarven "flavor," it wouldn't surprise me if the two races weren't as economically efficient as possible. Another possibility is that had a few ships in the naval convoy that essentially "transformed" into siege equipment when brought on land, which would also explain the mechanical complexity of the interiors of the towers demonstrated in the cinematic.

[Combatbutler]

There's no missing logic - the technology exists, the engineers or specialists who could achieve it are part of the Alliance (e.g. Dwarves, Gnomes, Lightforged Draenei, Magi, etc.), and more powerful and/or versatile applications of said technologies have been demonstrated. Is that indeed what happened? I don't know, no one does as of yet, I'm only arguing that it is within the realm of possibility. *That* is pretty much conclusively shown, I believe - there's nothing illogical about its presence nor the idea that the Alliance would leverage it in such an important engagement as an assault on an enemy capitol.

What the Alliance pulled off there is beyond what they are currently capable off, in terms of magi and even with vidicar beacons, we are talking about thousands of troops, their supplies, siege engines etc. most brought in via a fleet. Teleporting such things doesn't work that way either, you need plenty of magi simply for ordinary supplies, these towers are out of the question by themselves, the Alliance without dalaran simply lacks the means to maintain such a supply line. And bringing all of it per ship is even more unlikely.

[Zulkhan]

the Alliance without dalaran

They are? Khadgar ran to Karazhan but Jaina is back and the Kirin Tor accepted the Horde back just because of the Legion affair.

But now it's total war again and I have little doubts they may actually pick a side in this scenario.

[Combatbutler]

They are? Khadgar ran to Karazhan but Jaina is back and the Kirin Tor accepted the Horde back because of the Legion affair.

But now it's total war again and I have little doubts they may actually pick a side in this scenario.

So far they haven't picked a side and if they don't the Alliance is hopelessly outgunned in the arcane department, heck even with dalaran they are outgunned with Suramar, Silvermoon and Zandalar.

[In Ogres We Trust]

I usually don't have anything bad to say about Anduin, but it's high time he moves on from the death of his father. Everything he says somehow comes down to "My father taught me..."

That is if those lines are actually supposed to be there and not an interpretation of the situation.

Robb Stark is against this preposterous notion!

[Aucald]

What the Alliance pulled off there is beyond what they are currently capable off, in terms of magi and even with vidicar beacons, we are talking about thousands of troops, their supplies, siege engines etc. most brought in via a fleet. Teleporting such things doesn't work that way either, you need plenty of magi simply for ordinary supplies, these towers are out of the question by themselves, the Alliance without dalaran simply lacks the means to maintain such a supply line. And bringing all of it per ship is even more unlikely.

This is assuming that the forces at the Undercity are part of a singular "push" from a surprise landing - but the sacking of Brill and likely other Forsaken settlements in Tirisfal seems to paint this as not entirely the case. Alliance reinforcements may have filtered in over time from the Eastern Kingdoms' various fronts - Arathi, Hillsbrad, and even from across Thandol Span from Dwarven lands. The presence of Alliance ships on the Forsaken coast has been taken as a surprise landing but may just be a sign that the Forsaken coasts have indeed fallen from prolonged conflict, and that the Undercity is just the culmination of a long-fought set of battles and skirmishes across Tirisfal. The Alliance may have several lines arrowing inward from the fronts all converging on Undercity for that final push to take the enemy's main fortification - an attack that proves Pyrrhic since they obviously fail to hold their objective and their crumbling front-line is pushed back all the way to Arathi.

[gcsmith]

Do we know the Alliance troops sailed in? What if they marched through the highlands?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Do we know the Alliance troops sailed in? What if they marched through the highlands?

The Forsaken still control Hillsbrad and Silverpine, so...

[Arrashi]

The Forsaken still control Hillsbrad and Silverpine, so...

Not to mention that pretty big fleet...

...unless those are those dreaded land-ships !

[Mehrunes]

We don't know if the Horde was already prepared for the attack or not - nothing about the cinematic can tell us that, and considering that much of the Horde might've been arrayed in the Kalimdor campaign (e.g. against Teldrassil) it may indeed have been a surprise body-swerve from a military perspective. With that in mind, we don't know about whether or not the Forsaken had defensive fortifications along the coastlines. They don't have any such defenses currently (insofar as in-game maps and terrain show) for reasons unknown. I would also expect the Forsaken to have fortified their holdings but there's no evidence of it thus far, so it remains to be seen if it will prove the case in BfA or in "Before the Storm."

Yes, we totally don't know that. Because there's a 50-50 chance that the Kalimdor part of the Horde was chilling in Undercity because it was Sylvanas' bar-mitzvah. And I'm not saying the Forsaken do have the walls, I'm saying they should have had them. There not being any walls is another proof of Blizzard writers being brain dead.

I'm not sure - we're missing the data to make good speculation about exactly how the campaign goes down, for better or worse. I would imagine the Undercity battle is the product of an Alliance pincer movement - having established a redoubt in the Arathi Highlands they then bring down the naval armada held in reserve to conduct a surprise attack on the Undercity. The siege equipment we've been discussing may have been transferred from there, the two pincers of the assault meeting at the Undercity to sack it. Of course that leads to the question as to how they moved through Hillsbrad and Silverpine, but again we lack the appropriate info to speak to that in specific.

Given how the Alliance would have to cross Thondroril River at some point if they marched from Arathi, no, the siege towers could not be transported from there. And there are at least 5 chokepoints that would get the Alliance fucked if they marched from there. Given how they don't hold Arathi or Silverpine, also unlikely this is what have happened.

There's no missing logic - the technology exists, the engineers or specialists who could achieve it are part of the Alliance (e.g. Dwarves, Gnomes, Lightforged Draenei, Magi, etc.), and more powerful and/or versatile applications of said technologies have been demonstrated. Is that indeed what happened? I don't know, no one does as of yet, I'm only arguing that it is within the realm of possibility. *That* is pretty much conclusively shown, I believe - there's nothing illogical about its presence nor the idea that the Alliance would leverage it in such an important engagement as an assault on an enemy capitol.

You're using things like Naaru technology and claiming that just because this pretty much most advanced race in the universe can build a spaceship, Alliance has to have the technology needed to make them, even though we haven't seen anything of actual Alliance making ever. Or any other portable siege weapon. Even though it's not even the same field of technology. Or using Goblin technology and projecting it onto Dwarves and Gnomes. Or just using magic as an equivalent. Do tell me more of the tale of how this is somehow valid logic.

Overcomplexity is in keeping with Gnomish and even Dwarven "flavor," it wouldn't surprise me if the two races weren't as economically efficient as possible. Another possibility is that had a few ships in the naval convoy that essentially "transformed" into siege equipment when brought on land, which would also explain the mechanical complexity of the interiors of the towers demonstrated in the cinematic.

That'd enter Transformers, siege towers in disguise level of stupid.

This is assuming that the forces at the Undercity are part of a singular "push" from a surprise landing - but the sacking of Brill and likely other Forsaken settlements in Tirisfal seems to paint this as not entirely the case. Alliance reinforcements may have filtered in over time from the Eastern Kingdoms' various fronts - Arathi, Hillsbrad, and even from across Thandol Span from Dwarven lands. The presence of Alliance ships on the Forsaken coast has been taken as a surprise landing but may just be a sign that the Forsaken coasts have indeed fallen from prolonged conflict, and that the Undercity is just the culmination of a long-fought set of battles and skirmishes across Tirisfal. The Alliance may have several lines arrowing inward from the fronts all converging on Undercity for that final push to take the enemy's main fortification - an attack that proves Pyrrhic since they obviously fail to hold their objective and their crumbling front-line is pushed back all the way to Arathi.

Except Brill is literally on the way to Undercity from their landing spot. Of course it's going to get sacked. There is only one other potential landing spot in Tirisfal anyway. And Brill is on that path too. And how is Tirisfal coast going undefended a result of skirmishes across Tirisfal? Skirmishers from where? Because they either get there by sea, which makes it chronologically off, or they get there by land, which means them getting across multiple Forsaken outposts and even more natural chokepoints. Which means that the force managing to force their way through there and survive is going to be massive. Which means the naval force is not. Which means it should get fucked by the superior Horde fleet.

[gcsmith]

The Forsaken still control Hillsbrad and Silverpine, so...

Lorewise though? We know that the horde loses EK south of Blood elf lands. Those might have been captured in the march.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm by no means an expert in strategy, but even I can see holes in this whole invasion that made no sense. The wood of Lordaeron is rotten for example, the land is blighted. This means supply lines. The forsaken can rain blight down on these supply lines, elven magisters should burn the ships in the bay, or Horde warlocks to use fel fire so that not even water will extinguish. Blight the wells, booby trap Brill's buildings. Use sharp shooters to injure alliance soldiers and then kill the healers when they try to help etc. Fortify the beaches, make it an uphill battle etc..

It should have been a nightmare to even set up the siege, Blizzard could have played up with the Horrors of war on both sides, as it stands, and I hope it changes, it feels tacky.

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Lorewise though? We know that the horde loses EK south of Blood elf lands. Those might have been captured in the march.

Blizzard confirmed they still hold onto them.

[Ash123]

Lorewise though? We know that the horde loses EK south of Blood elf lands. Those might have been captured in the march.

I do not think that Blizzard has clearly stated the status of various zones in both continents, except with the certainly exaggerated description "Horde has the west and alliance controls the east.".

However, it would be more logical consistent if the Horde still controls the northern part of EK at the time of invasion.

In the current scenario, Alliance's invasions starts from shore of north of Tirisfal Glades, and then marches direct south to Undercity. This plan would be super stupid if the Alliance has Hillsbrad/Silverpine/EPL since it would be much easier and safer to stage the invasion from lands under Alliance' control.

Also, a side proof can be found in the warfront of Arathi Highland. If you check the map, the base of Horde is inland while Alliance base is Stormgard near the sea. This arrangement only makes sense if the Horde still controls the adjacent areas (Hillsbrad/EPL).

[Aucald]

Given how the Alliance would have to cross Thondroril River at some point if they marched from Arathi, no, the siege towers could not be transported from there. And there are at least 5 chokepoints that would get the Alliance fucked if they marched from there. Given how they don't hold Arathi or Silverpine, also unlikely this is what have happened.

I know that the in-game zones of WoW aren't exactly to "real world" of Azeroth scale, but the Thondroril could be quite fordable - it's not necessarily a hard stopgap for a hard match even with siege engines in tow. We also don't know about the state of Silverpine or Arathi - and since they retreat to Arathi after failing to hold Undercity I would imagine it is one of their central redoubts in the Eastern Kingdom.

You're using things like Naaru technology and claiming that just because this pretty much most advanced race in the universe can build a spaceship, Alliance has to have the technology needed to make them, even though we haven't seen anything of actual Alliance making ever. Or any other portable siege weapon. Even though it's not even the same field of technology. Or using Goblin technology and projecting it onto Dwarves and Gnomes. Or just using magic as an equivalent. Do tell me more of the tale of how this is somehow valid logic.

The Army of the Light was the first to be seen to make use of this technology - and now the mainstay of the Army of the Light (the Lightforged Draenei along with Turalyon and the elite commanders like Fareeya) have just allied with the Alliance, this strikes me as more than just a coincidence but also may not prove to be the case as it's just a theory on my part. Gnomish technology is also pretty analogous to Goblin technology save their aesthetics (steampunk volatile bric-a-brac vs. streamlined but less dynamic construction). It would also be odd for the Alliance not to march forward technology-wise in the face of an impending world war, especially in light of them fielding "Azerite War Machines" according to the data-mined strings for the Lordaeron front. But again, I'm just theorizing and speculating, the ultimate truth of the matter may be altogether different (and may or may not make cohesive sense).

That'd enter Transformers, siege towers in disguise level of stupid.

Depends on how it's done, really. Done poorly and yes, it'd be laughable - done correctly and it would be something of a coup for the Alliance war-efforts in the story.

Except Brill is literally on the way to Undercity from their landing spot. Of course it's going to get sacked. There is only one other potential landing spot in Tirisfal anyway. And Brill is on that path too. And how is Tirisfal coast going undefended a result of skirmishes across Tirisfal? Skirmishers from where? Because they either get there by sea, which makes it chronologically off, or they get there by land, which means them getting across multiple Forsaken outposts and even more natural chokepoints. Which means that the force managing to force their way through there and survive is going to be massive. Which means the naval force is not. Which means it should get fucked by the superior Horde fleet.

We don't know the state of the Horde fleet by that time in the chronology, either; I would wager that a protracted naval battle in and around Teldrassil (only accessible in large part by sea) would be costly to the Horde navy. It also takes a goodly amount of time to reduce an area to the rubble it appears to be in the data-mined shots in and around Undercity - Brill is completely devastated and even the zeppelin towers near Undercity have been knocked down and torn apart. Destruction on a scale like this takes time, and it speaks more toward a protracted engagement than any form of surprise march from the coast. The more I see of the Tirisfal battlefields the more convinced I am that we're seeing the products of a lengthy engagement, which means a slow but sure flow of troops and a logistical train built up through the heart of Forsaken territory. It's entirely possible (and even probable) that much of the Forsaken infrastructure has been taken out by an Alliance pincer movement - Brill, the Sepulcher, Deathknell, Ambermill, and whatever remains of the Forsaken Front at the Greymane Wall. "Before the Storm" and BfA to follow are the only real source of answers, though.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Lady Alleria is present during the Siege of Lordaeron. And not only that, but she is standing right behind the High-King, proving her usefulness to the Alliance despite her recent introduction into this faction. The Ren'dorei are already proving their worth to Anduin, who was wise to bring the first mortals in the history of the Cosmos to succesfully defy the shadows into the fold. Whereas incompetent people like Muradin, Velen and Tyrande are nowhere to be seen.

velen is the sole reason why the legion was stopped alleria would be dead if not for him how is he incompetent?

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Because tower in a box is a joke. On the other hand, you would expect a big lore event to have a little more common sense.

theirs really no fault of common sense here, they have jiana a super powerful mage she could just open a portal to storm wind and bring the towers though or bring building crews like khadgar did in wod.

[Schattenlied]

I always wished that Blizzard did StarCraft quality cutscenes with WoW. A step above WoW cutscenes, but a step below an actual cinematic trailer.

Both use their respective game's engine for their in game cinematics, WoW's look the way they do because it's supposed to look more cartoonish, and it's a 16 year old engine, it's had many upgrades over the years, but is still 16 years old, there is only so much they can do with it.