Gameplay Should Cater to Skilled Players

[HuxNeva]

Okay now that I've got the clickbait title out of the way.

My posts on this forum typically involve me arguing that the game should appeal to the vast majority of players because that seems to be what Blizzard is after in order to make the most money. However I don't believe that designing gameplay for the vast majority of players will result in satisfying as many players as possible ... I know that sounds contradictory as hell, but I'll explain why.

Let me start of by stating that when I say "skilled players", what i'm actually referring to is players that enjoy improving in videogames and don't just play to have fun. This can apply to any type or caliber of player but essentially who i'm referring to is anyone that would enjoy/appreciate involved and intricate gameplay.

Now it's very clear to me that the vast majority of players are not these kinds of people, most players just play to have fun and I get that. However, while that seems like a counter to my argument, if you really think about it, it's actually not. Gameplay isn't a defining part of the average players WoW experience, in fact my perception of the "vast majority" is "players who appreciate all aspects of the game equally, more or less (raids, dungeons, leveling, community, gameplay, transmog, gearing, pvp, etc)". So I think it would be fair to say, that if gameplay catered to "skilled players", it wouldn't effect the "vast majority" much at all because gameplay isn't a main reason why they enjoy the game, it's just one of many equally important reasons why they enjoy the game.

In addition to that, the vast majority isn't required to perform at an optimal level for the content that they engage in (normal/heroic, low mythic+, leveling). So diluting the rotations/utility of each spec to a point where the average player can perform optimally is completely pointless, because the content that they're likely to engage in doesn't require optimal play to begin with.

For skilled players however, involved gameplay is vital to their enjoyment of the game and players will (and have) quit because of the gameplay changes in wod/legion. It reduces competitiveness in all aspects of the game, and reduces the gap between a good player and a bad one which massively reduces incentive to improve. Not to mention that, for these players it's simply less fun to play the game when you have less options, less customization and less things to actively think about. If you're a "skilled player" it is likely that Wod, Legion and BFA (by the looks of it) are a huge blow to your enjoyment of the game.

In summary, my argument is:
If an effort was put forth to develop more involved and intricate specs, with an adequate amount of customization I think that would pay off tremendously for Blizzard. Skilled players would show much more interest in the game and the vast majority of players would likely remain the same as they are currently since gameplay is not one of the main reasons why they play the game.

Skill progression is an 'S-curve'. After an initial short period of acquiring the basics, you see rapid progression until you are near optimal and returns are very marginal. This is the same for all 'learners'. This doesn't mean everyone reaches their skill-plateau at the same level, it is just that your 'innate' skill ceiling is reached in a relatively short time. You can be a natural at the game and have an initial very high ceiling, or you can be 'average' and have a ceiling quiet a bit lower.
Breaching that ceiling takes a completely new approach and often a coached rebuild from basics that takes far, far more effort than anyone but a tiny fraction of people would be willing to invest in a game.

You have to keep this in mind as a game designer. In a progression game this means that individuals and teams run can run into their 'ceiling' before they can succeed an encounter. Short term this will not change. They are at their maximum in terms of 'skill learning', at least in the short term and for most in the long term with reasonable effort. So you give them alternative assists. Gear, making them more powerful at the same skill level, or encounter nerfs, making the encounter difficulty go down to below their ceiling. Both are basically the same.

For gear, this obviously has to come from somewhere outside of the encounter that you are stuck on, as otherwise you create a catch-22 where the gear you nee to succeed is locked behind the encounter you need the gear for to kill. This is what TF solves (actually, it is a brilliant system that solves a lot more than just this).

Nerf used to be a 'feels bad man' thing, a sort of finger pointing bifurcation of either you killed it before and were '1337', or you didn't and were a scrub. The AP/AK system is basically a smooth nerf over time of all encounters, gently correlated to effort but with extreme diminishing returns past initial points. No longer 'feels bad man', but a gradual lifting of the tides to bring players closer to killing an encounter at their skill cap each week.

Legion from a systems design point of view is brilliant, and TF, AP/AK are it's crown jewels. I think the great majority of the playerbase has intuitively grasped this. They might not see the theory behind, but feel it through 'viable content' and more enjoyable encounter progression. There is ofc a minority, a loud minority, that does not like this at all: those that just wan to 'log-on for raid and log off again till next raid night' don't like that there exist a game outside that at all. Then there is those that are not willing to grasp or give in to diminishing returns. They'll go to extremes and burn out completely because there is always that 1/1.000.000.000 chance that that last WQ reward will TF all the way up. They need education, not accommodation. It would be nice if Blizzard posted the actual numbers behind TF, so compulsives could at least see how ridiculous their 'efforts' are in terms of return.

[Tradu]

Yep and I think it's a clever design principle. If you don't want things to be overly complicated pick the talents that don't require a lot of attention. If you want a relatively small boost at the expense of complicating things you can pick those talents instead.

That's all great in theory, but in practice they've basically never got that tuning right.

[Airwaves]

You want to know why Wildstar failed? It tried to cater to skilled people. WoW would go the some way if they tried it. They tried it as the start of cata and saw the biggest play count drop so far.

[JackWest]

You want to know why Wildstar failed? It tried to cater to skilled people. WoW would go the some way if they tried it. They tried it as the start of cata and saw the biggest play count drop so far.

To me WS failed coz they released it unoptimized and even ppl with high end pcs had under 20 fps, which for skill shot based game is rly bad. Also, since cata game is more and more casual, yet subs have been dropping since then. I think that kinda disprooves your argument

[Craaazyyy]

You want to know why Wildstar failed? It tried to cater to skilled people. WoW would go the some way if they tried it. They tried it as the start of cata and saw the biggest play count drop so far.

wildstar failed not because it was hardcore, but because it wasnt good..

also the player drop in cata wasnt even close to the biggest.. cata never had less than 9m subs and it was during the content drought in DS

[Mormolyce]

I would say sure, in certain specific kinds of games.

[Nnyco]

if you just cater to "skilled players" then you get a shitshow like wildstar was

[Pua]

The verdict has largely been passed on this.

The numbers, according to the lead systems designer at the time, showed that players don't rise to the challenge of a harder game - they quit.

[Deleted]

The easier version of those genres are more popular though league shit on dota population wise for example.

Thats because league is a better game overall(sorry).

League is absolutely 100% skill based, i'd dare you to counter that statement with actual arguments

[Erwarth]

Lemme give you a real example how it does. Nighthold current tier. I raid mythic as boomie. 2 months after killing the second boss for my bis trinket. I am still using normal one, because both heroic and mythic havent even dropped one. Then i see another boomie with full lfr gear and above mythic trinket that i need. I put time and efford into highest difficulty to get my bis trinket and he hets better for afk-ing 15 mins. It devaluates my time and work

What about all the others 15-ish pieces of stuff you have and he haven't ? You still do 4 to 5 time his DPS and do more prestigious content with unique cosmetic, mount and achievement reward. Missing ONE piece of equipement seems very acceptable to me. You're still way more rewarded than him.

[Deleted]

If that were true, Counterstrike, DOTA, OW,

These examples suck. There is play for all levels in those games, because matchmaking exists. I can pick up Overwatch as someone who doesn't play a whole lot of shooters and still have a good game, because i'm matched with people around the same skill level as me. Dota is the same, and counterstrike lends itself more to organised Team play. But the point is, they cater from the lowest to the highest skilled players.

Wow needs to have content for everyone. In vanilla there was very little to do outside of raiding for the Majority of the expansion, and I can imagine a lot of people started letting their subs lapse when they completed their tier 0 armour. When the 0.5 armor and quest line was introduced it added another level of Gameplay for them, whilst still having a top level that was seeing content the Vast, VAST majority of the player didn't get to see at the time.

It's possible to please both ends of the spectrum.

[JackWest]

The verdict has largely been passed on this.

The numbers, according to the lead systems designer at the time, showed that players don't rise to the challenge of a harder game - they quit.

I remember pugging sapphiron 3 drakes without voice comm and killing it in few tries. The current player base will be dying to the magma wave 90%+ of the time, even with a raid leader calling it. Also, wrath didnt care for casuals yet had way more people playing it

[Deleted]

Thats because league is a better game overall(sorry).

League is absolutely 100% skill based, i'd dare you to counter that statement with actual arguments

It is, a team at the top of the game isn't going to be matched with a team at the bottom. That's why it's so popular.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, wrath didnt care for casuals yet had way more people playing it

10 man raids, which were far easier then their 20 man counterparts. New solo and dungeon content released with almost every raid patch, Constant nerfs to older content, multiple ways to upgrade gear outside of raiding.

No, Wrath 100% catered to a more casual playerbase.

And seriously, 3 drakes Sapp was a steamroll by the time people were pugging it.

[Deleted]

It is, a team at the top of the game isn't going to be matched with a team at the bottom. That's why it's so popular.

Thats the same way in Hots, Dota2, Smite and all the other(at least by far the most) MOBAS aswell though. ANd yes a game without an actual matchmaking based on players skill wouldnt be played at all

[Deleted]

Yeah let's make "intricated" spec and stuff, so after 10 minute you can copy your cookie butter spec from any site and be done with it.

Intricated and lot of choices does not go in par with engaging gameplay.

[Deleted]

Yeah let's make "intricated" spec and stuff, so after 10 minute you can copy your cookie butter spec from any site and be done with it.

Intricated and lot of choices does not go in par with engaging gameplay.

a more intricate rotation != a cookie cutter spec.

Its two completely different things

[Deleted]

I like how it seems everyone is "teh Hardcore"

Most of you would cry relentlessly on the forums about difficulty and demand it be nerfed. There is a real disconnect between what you think a skilled player is, and what a skilled player ACTUALLY is.

- - - Updated - - -

a more intricate rotation != a cookie cutter spec.

Its two completely different things

Not really.

Especially during TBC and Wrath, you would copy your spec and rotation from the people theory crafting. And if you didn't then you were shit out of luck getting into a decent progression oriented guild.

[JackWest]

It is, a team at the top of the game isn't going to be matched with a team at the bottom. That's why it's so popular.

- - - Updated - - -


10 man raids, which were far easier then their 20 man counterparts. New solo and dungeon content released with almost every raid patch, Constant nerfs to older content, multiple ways to upgrade gear outside of raiding.

No, Wrath 100% catered to a more casual playerbase.

And seriously, 3 drakes Sapp was a steamroll by the time people were pugging it.

You could forget bis pvp gear if you were under 2.2k. You could forget bis pve gear if you were not in high raid guild. You could forget about legwndary if werent in top guild on the server. Post wrath/cata i was seeing on weekly base people with full bis pvp gear and 0 arenas plyayed. People with legendary and 0 normal+ bosses killed. Hell, last week i saw dh with max prestige lvl wih 0 arenas on hig account(didnt even have win arena achievement

Edit: shall i also mention the 60%(roughly) power increase from start to finish of older expac and compare to the 600%+ we have atm? Outgearing wasnt even as close as what we have today

[Deleted]

I like how it seems everyone is "teh Hardcore"

Most of you would cry relentlessly on the forums about difficulty and demand it be nerfed. There is a real disconnect between what you think a skilled player is, and what a skilled player ACTUALLY is.

- - - Updated - - -



Not really.

Especially during TBC and Wrath, you would copy your spec and rotation from the people theory crafting. And if you didn't then you were shit out of luck getting into a decent progression oriented guild.

You dont get what i am saying so i'l try again.

As long as there is options like talents or stats or whatever there is always going to be cookie cutter builds.

That in itself does not impact weather or not Blizzard can make rotations more intricate.

Instead of just hittin everything thats off cd with a prio list, you can make dependencies, buffs to track, debuffs to track and so forth. That can make a spec harder to play even if you copy the build from someone else.

[Deleted]

people wanting more intricate rotations is a assumption that is faulty to begin with

Its not my statement but i'd love to know where you are getting your facts from