I really hate Jaina...

[Wildberry]

needing resources really doesn't justifies a war, not to mention when we have zones like stonetalon where the horde are flat out wiping out schools of druids, even if garrosh wasn't for it or invading ashenvale again and again.

What was Garrosh supposed to do? Let his people starve, because the Night Elves had cut off trade for something that wasn't even the Orcs' fault? Not to mention, invading Ashenvale is fine when you're economically dependent upon the region, and you lose access.

Every diplomatic avenue failed before Garrosh launched an invasion.

Oh, and Warchief Baine is a disgusting idea.

[Zulkhan]

raising the dead in silverpine

Please, point me to the pieces of lore hinting that Jaina even barely knows or care about this occurence.

needing resources really doesn't justifies a war, not to mention when we have zones like stonetalon where the horde are flat out wiping out schools of druids, even if garrosh wasn't for it or invading ashenvale again and again. orcs are kinda dicks jhiana tried to help them not be as much dicks and sure she screwed that up but they double downed and became even bigger dicks under garrosh. theirs no real way i could think any one could trust the horde at all at this point unless like bane was leading. i'm not saying the alliance ares peace loving angels or any thing either but the horde tend to be the bigger dicks of the two and i think there at there best when they are being dicks i loved when garrosh was in charge.

Garrosh's track record has been somewhat questionable and despite the Orcs' convenient justifications for waging war, Garrosh's willingness to spread the conflict over two continents proved that worldwide conquest was his ultimate goal. He didn't need justifications to wage war, those were needed to lead the orcs into war. Garrosh 's thirst for war didn't need any.

That's totally irrelevant though. Before Jaina received a mana bomb over her head, she made enough rationalization to understand that Garrosh was the main force behind the Horde's war campaign and understood the amount of political power the Warchief had in his hands. In fact, the amount of rationalization was even too excessive, similar to the one of Baine regarding Taurajo.

But suddenly a mana bomb is thrown over Theramore and everything changes. Now even the smallest and dubious event is an excuse to validate her bias and distrust.

There's nothing the Horde can do to win Jaina's trust over. Jaina's issues are all within herself and she's the only one who can deal with them.

[Clone]

Running in the face of the enemy and abandoning your allies is betrayel. The Horde could still have bought time / tied of demon reinforcement. But they chose to run. Because they are cowards that value faction over Azeroth.

Lok'tar ogar my ass.

Be honest dude, you just want Horde to die for Alliance. The fact you hold this belief despite the fact it's an unwinnable battle says a lot.

[Verdugo]

Be honest dude, you just want Horde to die for Alliance. The fact you hold this belief despite the fact it's an unwinnable battle says a lot.

No its Elba, better to ignore him so that he can sulk back to off-topic section with shame.

[Kallisto]

raising the dead in silverpine, pretty much every thing the orcs have ever done. being a goblin. the cows and i guess blood elfs are cool but the forsaken are pretty much evil at this point and the orcs have a track record of being huge dicks. even if you comply take out thereamore there are alot of reasons why you wouldn't want to trust them even more if you think they left the alliance to die and there new leader is an evil zombie elf.

Raising the dead still hasn't been shown as something terrible when the dead have free will in which every forsaken has. It's basically a second birth into a new life. Plus the dead raising is about making sure the forsaken isn't wiped out through losses of wars started by Garrosh (Gilneas which Garrosh started with intention to wipe out forsaken) or human settlements of Ambermill, Hillsbrad and Southshore, Scarlets. All of which the humans started.

[Zulkhan]

No its Elba, better to ignore him so that he can sulk back to off-topic section with shame.

I can imagine the fun he brings there by his avatar alone.

[Verdugo]

I can imagine the fun he brings there by his avatar alone.

You would be surprised about some shit known alliance "characters" here post in that cesspool. They certainly dont have the same morality compass when it comes to real politics.

[Clone]

He got on my nerves up until Ulduar but when ICC came around he was much better. Since then he's been the "I respect honor" guy.

I started with the comics and it did an okay job setting up why he disliked the Horde. It made sense and wasn't forced. His characterization in WotLK got me a bit worried but it turned out okay at the end. Too bad they had to kill him off.

[mickybrighteyes]

so you think lore wise the guards stood there and let them self's be killed one by one? what we see in game isn't always cannon that is a fact and something like this seems far to stupid and nonsensical to be cannon, it fits for a game but not for a world which Warcraft is suppose to be.

I think Lore-wise, Aethas order his men NOT to initiate a fight within Dalaran's walls so as not to give Jaina anymore reason to rage. OR maybe Aethas was trying to bet that Jaina would assume they actually didn't do anything and would question them at most. I agree it is nonsensical... but only because that's the level of 180 that Jaina has been portrayed at. going from the only one willing to TRY diplomacy... to the meta joke player character referral to Dipomacy (read: Walking Dead's Lucille).

It seems you don't want to accept it because you don't like it, rather than it not seeming to be accurate.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Of course it justifies war on the Horde’s side from their perspective, their faction’s needs always come first. Wars have started over far less things.


Jaina had a dream, she just never was able to understand how the world worked until a bomb dropped on her.

If you want to blame someone, blame Thrall for deciding the orcs should live in a desert as penance.

As for Warchief Baine, the moment diplomacy failed and he didn’t act, he would lose the Hordes support just like Garrosh, although the transfer of power would be less violent.

What was Garrosh supposed to do? Let his people starve, because the Night Elves had cut off trade for something that wasn't even the Orcs' fault? Not to mention, invading Ashenvale is fine when you're economically dependent upon the region, and you lose access.

Every diplomatic avenue failed before Garrosh launched an invasion.

Oh, and Warchief Baine is a disgusting idea.

I think the horde should have invaded and I like that they did, I want the horde to be warmongering dicks but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna pretend there good whole some people, I mean if they really needed resources they could have just got them form northrend or Outland garrosh got a bunch of mammoth men from northrend but he couldn’t get some trees? But that would be lame and boring the horde are dicks and there at there best when there being dicks.

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Raising the dead still hasn't been shown as something terrible when the dead have free will in which every forsaken has. It's basically a second birth into a new life. Plus the dead raising is about making sure the forsaken isn't wiped out through losses of wars started by Garrosh (Gilneas which Garrosh started with intention to wipe out forsaken) or human settlements of Ambermill, Hillsbrad and Southshore, Scarlets. All of which the humans started.

The slyvanas flat out says what joy is there in this curse, being undead clearly isn’t a happy fun adventure and not wanting to be wiped out if a moronic reason to raise people with free will as we see with Crowley they can use that free will to stab you in the back and try and wipe out the forsaken.

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I think Lore-wise, Aethas order his men NOT to initiate a fight within Dalaran's walls so as not to give Jaina anymore reason to rage. OR maybe Aethas was trying to bet that Jaina would assume they actually didn't do anything and would question them at most. I agree it is nonsensical... but only because that's the level of 180 that Jaina has been portrayed at. going from the only one willing to TRY diplomacy... to the meta joke player character referral to Dipomacy (read: Walking Dead's Lucille).

It seems you don't want to accept it because you don't like it, rather than it not seeming to be accurate.

I don’t really care if she killed the guards or not but there is no way I’m gonna believe that they stood around and let them selfs get killed like morons like what is shown in game, we know the game isn’t always right when it comes to showing us what is cannon and this seems like something couldn’t possibly happen as no one would stand there as there buddy’s are being murdered and not fight back when there next in line.

[TheEaterofSouls]

Hate her?
Naw, love her!

Unf

[Powerogue]

The only thing that would make this even better is if she started casting lightning bolts.

She has the Storm-staff of Antonidas, charged with the power of the thunder king so that's not off the table.

[Mehrunes]

The Alliance abandoned her by not eradicating the Horde after their betrayal.

What betrayal?

jhiana hasn't done any thing like arthas or deathwing. not trusting the horde is perfectly reasonable, locking up sunreavers for helping the horde is also perfectly reasonable from some points of view. other then those she hasn't really done any thing bad.

You sure about that? Because being told that she's behaving like Arthas is the only reason she didn't flood Orgrimmar. And however reasonable locking Sunreavers up was (even though using them helping the Horde as a reason is patent hypocrisy given how she helped the Horde first), she still engaged in collective punishment and ethnic/political cleansing. So yeah, maybe she hasn't really done anything bad (aside from her forces invading the Barrens while the factions had a truce) aside from that, but this one event is already so bad that this isn't really that much of an argument.

from the alliance view it is horde betrayal just because we see both sides doesn't mean they do.

But nothing supports the notion of Horde betrayal even from the information available to Alliance characters.

They abandoned the Alliance to save their own skin.

Of which their allies were informed. Don't use words you don't understand.

Even from the Horde side it's betrayal. They ran like cowards. What happened to Lok'tar ogar?

Nothing? Not only is it an Orc motto when the retreat was carried out by an undead High Elf on orders from a Troll, but Lok'tar Ogar never forbade retreat.

Running in the face of the enemy and abandoning your allies is betrayel. The Horde could still have bought time / tied of demon reinforcement. But they chose to run. Because they are cowards that value faction over Azeroth.

Lok'tar ogar my ass.

Why would they need to buy time when the demons from Horde position couldn't even reach the Alliance force without having to march across the entire island?

the horde are kinda dicks she had legit reasons not to trust them.

Horde defended themselves from Northwatch (i.e. Theramore's forces') aggression. Such dicks. Perhaps Jaina could have tried not invading the Barrens.

I already made a post about that gif you can go read that.

and no if i lived in a city of wizards and the leaders told me to get out or go to jail id take one of the many portals and leave.

Except the leaders did not. One of the leaders did, but she had no authority to do so. Aethas was also one of the leaders and he negated that. Jaina's voice was not more important than his.

so you think lore wise the guards stood there and let them self's be killed one by one? what we see in game isn't always cannon that is a fact and something like this seems far to stupid and nonsensical to be cannon, it fits for a game but not for a world which Warcraft is suppose to be.

Given how they just did their job of holding people away from the person they were guarding and Jaina randomly frostbolted them in the face, how it's them just "letting themselves to be killed"?

raising the dead in silverpine, pretty much every thing the orcs have ever done. being a goblin. the cows and i guess blood elfs are cool but the forsaken are pretty much evil at this point and the orcs have a track record of being huge dicks. even if you comply take out thereamore there are alot of reasons why you wouldn't want to trust them even more if you think they left the alliance to die and there new leader is an evil zombie elf.

Why would Jaina know of a private presentation of Val'kyr power she gave Garrosh? Also, every thing Orcs have ever done? Like them defending themselves from the attack of Jaina's own forces? Finally, Goblin racism.

I think the horde should have invaded and I like that they did, I want the horde to be warmongering dicks but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna pretend there good whole some people, I mean if they really needed resources they could have just got them form northrend or Outland garrosh got a bunch of mammoth men from northrend but he couldn’t get some trees? But that would be lame and boring the horde are dicks and there at there best when there being dicks.

But Night Elves owed them those resources as per the trade treaty they chose not to fulfill over bullshit.

The slyvanas flat out says what joy is there in this curse, being undead clearly isn’t a happy fun adventure and not wanting to be wiped out if a moronic reason to raise people with free will as we see with Crowley they can use that free will to stab you in the back and try and wipe out the forsaken.

Which is a quote from W3. In Cata she's ecstatic about being resurrected by the Val'kyr and sees it as the proof this is the path her race should take.

[Powerogue]

And this is why, If the made a 3 neutral faction with Jaina as Leader... I'd be right beside her. She was the 1st NPC I personally could relate to, always trying to do the right thing, always trying to be helpful, almost always ignored.

Reminds me of me when I played Telltale's The Walking Dead.

Clementine: DON'T DO THE THING!
Kenny: GONNA DO THE THING!

I think we'll have to see, much like my playthrough, whether this simply hardens her resolve or ultimately pushes her off the deep end. I await with popcorn ready to her meeting Thrall, the orc who convinced her to trust the Horde in the first place, in BfA.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which is a quote from W3. In Cata she's ecstatic about being resurrected by the Val'kyr and sees it as the proof this is the path her race should take.

ya i'm just gonna ignore most of your post as i don't feel like relying to a ton of points at once so ill focus on this.



she probably still says it today but i don't feel like checking at the moment

[Combatbutler]

she probably still says it today but i don't feel like checking at the moment

Actually she does not anymore.

[Goldielocks]

What betrayal?

I'd get exhausted from having to repeat this over and over again.

[Mehrunes]

ya i'm just gonna ignore most of your post as i don't feel like relying to a ton of points at once so ill focus on this.



she probably still says it today but i don't feel like checking at the moment

Aside from what Combat said, this video still predates her statement from Cata. There's kinda a huge shift between pre-Cata Sylvanas and post-Cata Sylvanas, since she needed to refocus her life after her vengeance against Lich King has been over.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Aside from what Combat said, this video still predates her statement from Cata. There's kinda a huge shift between pre-Cata Sylvanas and post-Cata Sylvanas, since she needed to refocus her life after her vengeance against Lich King has been over.

Turning her life around and getting off the street's doesn't make it any less of a curse.

[Combatbutler]

Turning her life around and getting off the street's doesn't make it any less of a curse.

Well it really depends, the shadowlands don't seem to be one of the nicest places to be and there seem to be quite a few powerful deities there hoarding souls, like bwonsamedi. Undeath sucks compared to being alive, yet at the same time it might actually be more preferable than the genuine afterlife for some cases.