8.0 Warlock changes from Beta

[Lucrece]

What I'm running into now. I haven't called people idiots but I've pretty much dissected why we lost Meta to begin with, aside from Demon Hunters, and the issues it caused to the playstyle and how fucked up it made the power budget all to have a skill that looks cool. They just don't want to hear it.

In a way I'm glad the alpha is as limited as it is because half the time the posters are these tryhard losers either reminiscing about TBC/wrath or that the game is too easy (despite the fact most of them wouldn't even cut it in mythic let alone top 100 guilds) and it should more closely resemble a trial to get into the SEALs because games are serious business.

I don't want people who can't clear mage tower at 930-940 ilv giving feedback on how the game should be directed.

[Kirroth]

(as with all the fools here wanting shadowbolt back for affliction who knows the fuck why, given it's a flat out inferior spell on all fronts)

The main advantage to Shadowbolt over a channeled spell is that channeled spells often interact poorly with other game mechanics. There's things channels can't damage, like totems. There's certain "on-attack" effects from trinkets and boss mechanics that don't proc off channels. Shadowbolts are a bit crude and clumsy, but they reliably get the job done.

I'm not saying I'm celebrating, and not being able to get SS off mob deaths is a hit to be sure, but it's not all downside at least.

[Netherspark]

Is Drain Soul actually removed completely?

There should still be a talent that replaces Shadow Bolt with Drain Soul.

[Lucrece]

The main advantage to Shadowbolt over a channeled spell is that channeled spells often interact poorly with other game mechanics. There's things channels can't damage, like totems. There's certain "on-attack" effects from trinkets and boss mechanics that don't proc off channels. Shadowbolts are a bit crude and clumsy, but they reliably get the job done.

I'm not saying I'm celebrating, and not being able to get SS off mob deaths is a hit to be sure, but it's not all downside at least.

Those are marginal benefits next to a spell that did partial damage during movement, healed a metric ton, gave shards, and didn’t compete with our other casts as heavily due to being able to interrupt it early at lesser loss for a higher priority cast.

Not to mention the obvious theme to affliction was always more aligned with soul drains and malefic grasp, and in Blizzards hamfisted way of nerfing affliction due to bandwagon envy cries, instead of reducing or removing the healimg from drain soul they copied demos spec nuke onto affliction as well so they could also spare themselves the need to update its animation alingside other warlock spells.

[Duckz0rs]

The issue with that was you have these short duration demons youre pumping out and trying to snapshot as many of those as you could would have been worse gameplay. My thought with the commander from hell was to basically take the cd idea but solve the snapshot issue by making the commander buff things with an aura just like in HOTS.

If the "Demon Commander" is anything to go by it seems like they're going for a pretty much exact mix of what you and @Gaidax suggest. An external pet that functions as an aura on a 1-2 min cd. Which doesn't sound half bad to be honest.

How does Shadowburn feel by the way? Not talking numbers obviously, but functionally - since it just resets its own cooldown and generate less shards I imagine it feels "similar but different" to the previous iteration? Still looks quite powerful in a fight with multiple short-lived adds obviously, but outside of that?

[Inshabel]

Dingdong GoSup is dead.

I'm really happy with this, would much rather use one of the other demons and get the guardian back as a cd.

[Jessicka]

If the "Demon Commander" is anything to go by it seems like they're going for a pretty much exact mix of what you and @Gaidax suggest. An external pet that functions as an aura on a 1-2 min cd. Which doesn't sound half bad to be honest.

How does Shadowburn feel by the way? Not talking numbers obviously, but functionally - since it just resets its own cooldown and generate less shards I imagine it feels "similar but different" to the previous iteration? Still looks quite powerful in a fight with multiple short-lived adds obviously, but outside of that?

Could have some Impending Doom type proc that shortens the cooldown could mix things up. Actually really like the sound of this Demon Commander cooldown, more Wrath-like I guess than MoP but still the big cooldown play.

[Count Zero]

The main advantage to Shadowbolt over a channeled spell is that channeled spells often interact poorly with other game mechanics. There's things channels can't damage, like totems. There's certain "on-attack" effects from trinkets and boss mechanics that don't proc off channels. Shadowbolts are a bit crude and clumsy, but they reliably get the job done.

I'm not saying I'm celebrating, and not being able to get SS off mob deaths is a hit to be sure, but it's not all downside at least.

So aren't you implying you'd be happy if they fixed channels to do those things ? (and afaik, the initial cast/tick of channels usually do work the same as a hardcast for many "on-attack" / "on-cast" things)

[Baconeggcheese]

If the "Demon Commander" is anything to go by it seems like they're going for a pretty much exact mix of what you and @Gaidax suggest. An external pet that functions as an aura on a 1-2 min cd. Which doesn't sound half bad to be honest.

How does Shadowburn feel by the way? Not talking numbers obviously, but functionally - since it just resets its own cooldown and generate less shards I imagine it feels "similar but different" to the previous iteration? Still looks quite powerful in a fight with multiple short-lived adds obviously, but outside of that?

Shadowburn will probably remain mostly useless unless they change fundamental things with the spec. It does the same damage as an incinerate and only generates bits so really it only seems useful for having something to cast while moving.

The thing that made shadowburn great was that embers were so scarce and it generated a full one, and it did enough damage that you could game the old havoc mechanic to see a dps increase. Generation hasnt changed and shadowburn only drops bits into the mix of already high gen while not doing much dmg.

The mechanic itself feels good and the charges do let it be used for movement which is nice but the rest of the spec surrounding it still doesnt support it.

[Xorn]

Shadowburn will probably remain mostly useless unless they change fundamental things with the spec. It does the same damage as an incinerate and only generates bits so really it only seems useful for having something to cast while moving.

The thing that made shadowburn great was that embers were so scarce and it generated a full one, and it did enough damage that you could game the old havoc mechanic to see a dps increase. Generation hasnt changed and shadowburn only drops bits into the mix of already high gen while not doing much dmg.

The mechanic itself feels good and the charges do let it be used for movement which is nice but the rest of the spec surrounding it still doesnt support it.

Yeah, honestly, I want old Shadowburn back as baseline... but slightly modified. I want it to be a TRUE execute in that it will actually out damage CB once it's usable. Maybe make it do about 60% of CB's damage, but have it cost only one shard instead of two. And definitely give us the refund mechanic back. Add sniping for days.

And better yet, maybe give it a previous version of the SWD approach: can use it at any health, but does pathetic damage to anything above 20% health. And then the talent can be something like "When Immolate deals damage it has a 10% chance to make your next Shadowburn free, deal 15% more damage, and deal damage as if the mob were under 20% health." Hell... they could even call it... wait for it.... Nightfall.

Edit:

Also, the one thing we're forgetting is that even while the talents are incomplete, we've also see literally NONE of the artifact abilities. They could fill any rotational gaps or awkwardness that we're currently seeing.

[Baconeggcheese]

Yeah, honestly, I want old Shadowburn back as baseline... but slightly modified. I want it to be a TRUE execute in that it will actually out damage CB once it's usable. Maybe make it do about 60% of CB's damage, but have it cost only one shard instead of two. And definitely give us the refund mechanic back. Add sniping for days.

And better yet, maybe give it a previous version of the SWD approach: can use it at any health, but does pathetic damage to anything above 20% health. And then the talent can be something like "When Immolate deals damage it has a 10% chance to make your next Shadowburn free, deal 15% more damage, and deal damage as if the mob were under 20% health." Hell... they could even call it... wait for it.... Nightfall.

Honestly i prefer where it was in wod which was mostly just to generate the ember but not an execute for dmg that replaces cb. I think its a good gimmick for locks specs and differentiates them from more traditional execute classes like warriors. Having drain soul for aff and shadowburn for destro as generators with lower baseline generation is how id go about it.

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Also, the one thing we're forgetting is that even while the talents are incomplete, we've also see literally NONE of the artifact abilities. They could fill any rotational gaps or awkwardness that we're currently seeing.

deathbolt is basically thalkiels which honestly is a problem spell imo and the other two im happy to see go. None of the passive parts really add anything that id like to see back.

[Xorn]

Honestly i prefer where it was in wod which was mostly just to generate the ember but not an execute for dmg that replaces cb. I think its a good gimmick for locks specs and differentiates them from more traditional execute classes like warriors. Having drain soul for aff and shadowburn for destro as generators with lower baseline generation is how id go about it.

I mean, either works. I've just always wanted it to be a solid execute because we've never really had it hit THAT hard. One of my favorite things to on add fights was to Havoc the boss and snipe out as many SBs as possible on dying adds. I think if it did execute level damage, that would be even more fun.

I understand wanting to differentiate ourselves from warriors, but in my mind an execute spell has always fit locks well thematically, especially given our origins with DS.

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deathbolt is basically thalkiels which honestly is a problem spell imo and the other two im happy to see go. None of the passive parts really add anything that id like to see back.

Oh, see, I'm with you on that. Portals and Reap need to go. But, they could add different/better mechanics (hopefully) through the new neck that we just aren't seeing yet

[Bullarkie]

Is Drain Soul actually removed completely?

There should still be a talent that replaces Shadow Bolt with Drain Soul.

I don't see Drain Soul however there is still one missing talent that appears to be where Grimoire of Supermacy was. Because drain life "ticks" I definitely prefer it over Shadow Bolt especially on heavy movement fights.

[JabJack]

Hopefully we can see the return of the Drain Soul execute. Really hate to see it just disappear. Nothing was more satisfying after seeing that first tick hit like a truck
(when it was an execute).

Even though Death's Embrace is a talent. The current talent tree either suggest warlocks remain middle of the pack on single target; and absolutely destroy +2 targets longer than 2mins - OR - absolutely king of single target.
Tuning is going to be interesting.

Also, the lack of actual (damage / stat / gain modifier) cool-down is really disappointing. Soul harvest should be baseline, and replaced with some sort of instant apply of dots on x amount of targets on x cool-down.

It appears that Howl of Terror is just gone?

[Trep]

Absolutely no changes to Demo when they said it would be one of the few classes getting a major overhaul? It looks like Aff and Destru got more fucking work done on it than Demo.

Bro... it's an Alpha. Not even in Beta. Like I get that you really want to see results but... at least let them get to Beta before you freak. It's very possible that they are just trying to knock out the other two specs first because they require less changes than Demo so that they can focus more on Demo.

[Xanatas]

Shadowburn is a good talent for PVP, maybe

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It appears that Howl of Terror is just gone?

yes, is gone

[pseudodraco]

Eh. It's getting nerfed a bit, but it is truly a bit odd how much sefl healing we have and how tanky we are. I'm not too phased by changes there. I'm sure other classes have impopular changes too. If this is the worst of what we can expect, then it could definitely be far worse than this.

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Nice work!

From the datamining it seems Demo is very much incomplete though. Will be something to monitor, cause we need all 3 specs to be in working shape.

Yeah, demo is probably getting the focus at the end, because it is in kind of a shit spot right now and basically needs a full on rebuid, again

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For the people freaking out about the lack of demo changes, they have specifically said in a previous Q&A that some specs, such as demo warlock, needed more significant overhauls than other specs. I'm going to assume that they haven't implemented much, if any of the intended demo changes in this build because they are very much still working on it and trying to figure out what to do with the spec moving forward.

Could be a few more builds before we see the demo changes.

Yeah, aff and destro don't need as major overhaul or redesigning going towards BfA, but demo does. it takes time to plan develop and implement MAJOR class overhauls like demo is getting

[Xorn]

Still though, you'd think that if they were completely reworking it that they'd do it FIRST so that there's ample time for feedback and fixes. Unless they have been working on it and just can't get it working yet to implement too many changes.

[Ooshraxa]

A "letter of intent" with regards to demo changes would be nice. Just so we could have an idea of the general direction that they want to move in.

[Challenge]

A short forum guide for defending Blizzard's bad spec design
Step 1: Bro, it's just early Alpha, relax.
Step 2: Bro, it's just early Beta, relax.
Step 3: Bro it's just the expansion launch, patch x.1 will fix it.
Step 4: Bro, it's just the first major content patch, the next one will fix it (repeat X time, where X is the number of patches the expansion has)
Step 5: Bro, it's end of the expansion, early Alpha of the next expansion will fix it (they promised that in the latest Q&A)
Step 6: Repeat everything starting from Step 1

You and other posters like @Sorotia just post absolute worthless whining garbage every time you made a post or thread. Don't you get tired of it? Regardless if you dont like how warlocks play, they have been or at least had 1 top tier spec in both pve and pvp every raid tier/season since cata.

This even includes demonology who was even meta in HFC for 2 mythic progression fights, the raid tier the blizzard didnt want demo to be the top spec and was still the T1 warlock pvp spec at the time. We've been more than fine for "bad spec design" each expansion. Shut the fuck up already.