Sylvanas on the Buring of Teldrassil and Saurfang's Honor

[Sluvs]

Yeah, I totally see Durotan's orcs going against the faction that helped them in the garrison campaign. Totally.

[steelballfc]

Dealing with college related stuff

we missed you

[Deleted]

Guys, I have a new and very interesting theory. Maybe Saurfang is not a kindergarten age crybaby who just throws a tantrum and leaves if someone upsets him.

He is an old, mature orc. Which version is more likely:

Sylvanas: If everyone dies with honor there will be no Horde left to save. If you die you either go to hell or become an undead. I don't think you'd enjoy either.

Saurfang: Waaaaaaaah, you are no longer my friend! I'll go to Anduin and we'll have a tea party where you are not invited. People love me anyway since I made that nice speach about how much of a badass I am.

or


Sylvanas: If everyone dies with honor there will be no Horde left to save. If you die you either go to hell or become an undead. I don't think you'd enjoy either.

Saurfang: Oh, okay. Sorry, boss. I'm just a little on edge with all this fighting now. By the way it is nice of you to sacrefice your own homeland instead of ours.


Seriously. Where is friendlyimmolation when you need him?

Well, looking at Blizzards story telling the past years, i think option one isn't unlikely.

Look at Cataclysm for example. We had Cairne, an old, mature and wise Tauren Highchieftain, who ran to Orgrimmar, challenging Garrosh to a duel / Mak'gora. Without a second thought, that the attack on the Tauren and Night Elves by "Horde Orcs" could have been staged by someone else. No, he acts "mature" and "wisely", blaming Garrosh for it.

So Blizzard already used option one in the past. Its that sad.

[Highwhale]

The more I read all of this, the more I feel like Blizz threw in a huge pile of BS for dataminers and now ppl spread it through different forums. Meanwhile Blizz develop an alternative direction of events that will go live.

Yeah sure just like with WoD... Oh wait...

Damn i love you.

[yetgdhfgh]

Well iam starting to believe Christie Goldens tweet about what has been datamined is inaccurate so iam gonna wait till we get a bit more info cause all of this is sounding like a huge red herring.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqRPTh0sAwM

Ahh yes. Found it.

[Deleted]

That's not how it went at all.

Cairne found evidence suggesting it was Garrosh, and had several other examples to pull from which would suggest this is something Garrosh would do. He didn't 'throw a tantrum and run to the enemy and give away secrets' to them. He went to Garrosh. Garrosh had a chance to basically say "Woah, I don't know what you're talking about, settle down and let's figure this out together" like a leader would - Instead he insulted Cairne and basically said "Look if you have a problem, do something about it cause otherwise I won't listen to you." So Cairne did something about it.

Very different than you're making it sound.

Where did i say Cairne ran to the enemy or threw a tantrum? Doesn't matter if he had more sources. All these sources could only have evidence from one place. The place of the attack. Staged by the Twilight Hammer. And Cairne never questioned if it really were Horde aligned Orcs, who attacked there. As if Horde Armor couldn't be obtained by other factions. A thought, which could have crossed the mind off old, experienced and wise characters. Especially if we have prophet all over Azeroth, who speak about Doom and Destruction.

And he ran to Ogrimmar accusing Garrosh. He didn't speak to Garrosh in a thoughtful tone or anything like that. For him it was clear, that Garrosh was responsible. Of course a character like Garrosh would react in a harsh way, after such an accusation. I also didn't claim Garrosh reacted smart, or wise or something else. That wasn't even the point of the post or the topic was. And no, if you accuse someone of something atrocious, which certain someone has not done, the accused has not the obligation to react in a fine way to something like that. Most people would be furious, Leaders too.

The topic was more or less "Will Blizzard depict an old, experienced character in an realistic way or will they depict him, as a 12 year old, retarded, entitled cry baby". And i posted, claiming that Blizzard doesn't depict old, wise characters nessecarily as they should. Cairne is an example for that. I didn't meant to imply, that Cairne acted like a little crybaby. He wasn't well depicted though, in the light that he was described as wise and thoughtful.

Edit: Good god. Saurfang in blue alliance armor really is disgusting.

[Ragnarocket]

Well iam starting to believe Christie Goldens tweet about what has been datamined is inaccurate so iam gonna wait till we get a bit more info cause all of this is sounding like a huge red herring.

They've put stuff in that we've datamined before that's just been flat out wrong. Anyone else remember how Rommath was going to be the "Benedictus" of the Horde? We can't really trust anything until late Beta/Release.

[Highwhale]

Some people overreacting. Sylvanas words about honor do have some reasoning, but when she mocked him it was only about Saurfang. Its not like he asked troops to make last stand with him - he was willing to do it alone to give the rest of them time to escape. He made his choice - his sacrifice for Horde - and instead of thank you she mocked him. Its like spiting to someone into face.

Also current Horde was build on Honor back in W3. Jaina took Thrall's side in fight with her father ONLY because she believed New Horde is different.

We can blame Garrosh for MoP.

But you can't blame only Sylvanas for BFA - its looks like whole faction is okay to start war over some child's nonsense (war for sake of peace).

[Mehrunes]

That's not how it went at all.

Cairne found evidence suggesting it was Garrosh, and had several other examples to pull from which would suggest this is something Garrosh would do. He didn't 'throw a tantrum and run to the enemy and give away secrets' to them. He went to Garrosh. Garrosh had a chance to basically say "Woah, I don't know what you're talking about, settle down and let's figure this out together" like a leader would - Instead he insulted Cairne and basically said "Look if you have a problem, do something about it cause otherwise I won't listen to you." So Cairne did something about it.

Very different than you're making it sound.

Cairne had no evidence whatsoever. The Orc that almost killed Hamuul told him he doesn't even know who Garrosh is. When confronted by Cairne Garrosh told him he didn't do it and that if it was actually his doing he'd have the balls to admit it. That's the scope of Cairne's evidence.

[Ragnarocket]

But you can't blame only Sylvanas for BFA - its looks like whole faction is okay to start war over some child's nonsense (war for sake of peace).

I can imagine that to the majority of the Horde her promises look very appealing. Get rid of the Alliance presence on Kalimdor and then use the power of the Azerite to create a "fortress continent" that is impossible to assault from the Eastern Kingdoms. The blood elves might feel a little awkward about that though I have to admit.

[Mehrunes]

Some people overreacting. Sylvanas words about honor do have some reasoning, but when she mocked him it was only about Saurfang. Its not like he asked troops to make last stand with him - he was willing to do it alone to give the rest of them time to escape. He made his choice - his sacrifice for Horde - and instead of thank you she mocked him. Its like spiting to someone into face.

Given how he have only snippets of the event and no text from Saurfang, do tell where you're getting this from.

[Highwhale]

Given how he have only snippets of the event and no text from Saurfang, do tell where you're getting this from.

Cinematic where Saurfang captured?

[Gelannerai]

Cairne had no evidence whatsoever. The Orc that almost killed Hamuul told him he doesn't even know who Garrosh is. When confronted by Cairne Garrosh told him he didn't do it and that if it was actually his doing he'd have the balls to admit it. That's the scope of Cairne's evidence.

This. Maybe the plot direction will be better with Golden’s involvement, but Blizzard’s writing cannot be trusted based on their current track record. We’ll just have to wait and see.

[Deleted]

Funny how Hordeplayers went from: Lok Thar Ogar and proudly holding up their moral sense of honor, to:
Screw honor, screw Saurfang, let Sylvanas use him as an undead boot cleaning slave for gods sake, who is he anyway?

Speaks a lot about the playerbase the horde is now composed of. 2 addons before Saurfang was your true and only hero.

Typical Alliance Fanboy/girl always getting a dig in instead of looking at the current state of your lack of story for all your leaders in general.
Stop being jelly and move on

[Mehrunes]

Cinematic where Saurfang captured?

Which clearly happens after he argues with Sylvanas? If anything Saurfang makes his stand Sylvanas loses track of him, with him doing it despite her opinion. The argument could have very well been about Saurfang making a last stand with more soldiers, trying to hold the Alliance in some chokepoint or whatever.

[Azahel]

Go home people, the honorable Horde of old, fighting against prejudices from all those who doubted their nobility is dead. There's nothing to see here.

[Wildberry]

Cairne found evidence suggesting it was Garrosh, and had several other examples to pull from which would suggest this is something Garrosh would do. He didn't 'throw a tantrum and run to the enemy and give away secrets' to them. He went to Garrosh. Garrosh had a chance to basically say "Woah, I don't know what you're talking about, settle down and let's figure this out together" like a leader would - Instead he insulted Cairne and basically said "Look if you have a problem, do something about it cause otherwise I won't listen to you." So Cairne did something about it.

Wrong.

"Garrosh!"
Cairne's bellow was loud and deep and echoed as he strode into Grommash Hold. The guards moved to him, allegedly to assist, not quite to intercept. He glared down at them balefully and snorted in derision and they stepped aside.
"Garrosh!"
...
"Garrosh, I demand to see you!"
"Nobody demands to see the leader of the Horde!" one of the Kor'kron spoke up, snarling.
Cairne whirled on him with a speed that belied his age. "I am High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof. I helped create this Horde that Garrosh is currently undermining. I will speak with him, and I will speak with him now!"
"Old bull, you will wake the dead with your angry snorting and pawing!"
Garrosh's voice was as sharp as Cairne's and dripping with sarcasm. Cairne turned, the Kor'kron forgotten, and fixed his gaze upon Garrosh Hellscream.
...
"Your father did much ill, but he died doing a great good," Cairne said. "And he would be ashamed of you right now."
"What?" growled Garrosh. "What are you talking about, tauren?"
"I warned Thrall about you," Cairne said, his voice as quiet as it had been loud before, ignoring the question for the moment. "I told him he was being foolish to give you so much power. I thought one day you might be ready for it, but you needed experience and tempering. I was wrong. You, Garrosh Hellscream, are not fit to lead a pack of hyenas, let alone this glorious Horde! You will ride us to ruin, screaming and beating your chest like one of those gorillas in Stranglethorn the entire way."
Garrosh paled, then flushed with anger. "You will regret those words, old bull," he hissed. "I will make you eat them, along with handfuls of dirt."
"It was you who attacked the Sentinels in Ashenvale, wasn't it?" Cairne cried, moving forward to where the orc stood clenching his brown fists. "And it was you who authorized the mass slaughter of nearly a dozen druids of the Cenarion Circle, gathering together to achieve a peaceful solution to the needs of the Horde."
Disbelief and then fury crossed Garrosh's face. "What in the names of the ancestors are you talking about? How dare you accuse me of such despicable acts?"
Cairne snorted. "Garrosh you have been open in your contempt of a treaty agreed to with honor and in good faith, and of Thrall's so-called appeasement of the Alliance."
"Yes! I do despise this appeasement. But I would not sneak around the treaty! I would be proud of any attack on the Alliance I authorized! I would shout it from the rooftops to prove to the Horde that all is not lose! The honor of the Horde --"
"How can you even utter that word?" growled Cairne. "Honor? Even now, you lie, Garrosh. You have not the honor of a centaur. At least admit what you have done. Own your foolish, selfish choices!"
Garrosh suddenly grew cold. "You are an idiot to think me a schemer. Age has addled your wits. Because of the esteem in which Thrall inexplicably holds you, I shall ignore your prattlings as that of a madman. Thrall put me in charge of the Horde, and I will always do what I believe is best for it. Go now, and spare yourself the indignity of being bodily tossed out on your tail."
For answer, Cairne backhanded Garrosh right across the face, striking the fresh tattoo.
...
"It is I who will toss you out on your tail, impudent pup," Cairne said. "That blow has been long in coming."
...
"You challenge me then, old bull?"
"Did I not make myself clear? Perhaps I ought to try again. I challenge you to a duel of honor, Garrosh. I challenge you to mak'gora."

--"The Shattering," p238-241

First of all, Cairne had no evidence. Hamuul Runetotem simply assumed it was Garrosh, despite the Orc in charge of the attack claiming to not know who Garrosh was. Both Hamuul and Cairne acted off from an assumption with no evidence other than "Orcs!"

Beyond that, he stormed into Grommash Hold, ceaselessly insulted Garrosh immediately, hurled accusations without any evidence, refused to listen to Garrosh and then assaulted him.

But oh, I forgot. Garrosh is supposed to tolerate the baseless accusations of this immature hothead, and somehow magically prove a negative to an extraordinarily biased individual, because God forbid anyone but Garrosh bear any fault, right?

Garrosh's insults came only after Cairne's insults & baseless accusations. Additionally, he didn't even imply anything remotely resembling "if you have a problem, do something about it."

In fact, Garrosh was willing to completely forget the incident, even after Cairne insulted him so. Cairne, instead, escalated the situation by physically striking Garrosh and challenging him to mak'gora.

Cairne was entirely at fault for that exchange, and deserved to be put down like the rabid animal he was.

[Ash123]

Some people overreacting. Sylvanas words about honor do have some reasoning, but when she mocked him it was only about Saurfang. Its not like he asked troops to make last stand with him - he was willing to do it alone to give the rest of them time to escape. He made his choice - his sacrifice for Horde - and instead of thank you she mocked him. Its like spiting to someone into face.

Also current Horde was build on Honor back in W3. Jaina took Thrall's side in fight with her father ONLY because she believed New Horde is different.

We can blame Garrosh for MoP.

But you can't blame only Sylvanas for BFA - its looks like whole faction is okay to start war over some child's nonsense (war for sake of peace).

Apparently Saurfang chooses to suicide himself just for honor not for covering and saving troop.

Sylvanas, as a rational commander, knows the difference between pointless suicide and last stand. She is, after all, very familiar with the concept of making a last stand.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sylvanas was telling Saurfang to man the fuck up in her own special way. Yea we know Saurfang wants to die, but dying so you can feel good is pointless

Anduin means well but he insults him all the same by taking him prisoner. If this causes Saurfang to bail the Horde his ancestors would spit on him and he’d find no peace in the afterlife.

Even joking about the Maghar being alliance means one or all of three things.

Alliance players suffer from yet another I want the race but I don’t want to play the faction syndrome, they have no fucking grasp on orcs or how they operate, or they still feel personally attacked by blood elves and perceive this as getting even.