BFA is the first expansion where we lose more than we gain.

[HyperJay]

Does that include having to stick with 4 old pieces for one bonus, and even 50 ilvl lower then everything else? Because thats what tier does right now.

My 910 trinkets are better than my 970 ones so lets remove trinkets from the game.

BiS is BiS

[Vynestra]

Hey by the way:

- We lose Tiersets. While they tended to lock down slots in armor, they are still more interesting than "stamina crit and hast" on a slot.

- We lose legendaries which where a nice way to customize classes. Especially in mythic+ you find yourself often switching between them for different situations. The method of acquiring these obviously sucked, but the idea itself was really really good. They do implement a few as talents, but thats it.

- Artifact weapons are gone, and with them a million passives (remember, WoD had passives as well while you leveled up). This time around, there won't be any passives from leveling, and there wont be any passives from artifact weapons.

- We trade in 20+ passives that completely changed how a class worked or had nice small effects for THREE effects from our Azerite "tierset".


All for of those things we lose, everyone complained about all xpac.

so...

I think that's a good thing?

[StationaryHawk]

You seem to be attempting to make a list of things we lose in BfA, but so many of your points are continuations of the last that it doesn't really translate well. Try to make your points more distinct.

[Nevcairiel]

My 910 trinkets are better than my 970 ones so lets remove trinkets from the game.

Trinkets are inherently a different problem - they are designed to have a certain effect, and those can be imbalanced. If a 60 ilvl lower trinket is always the better choice, thats clearly also a problem, but its not quite the same.

Tier sets lock out slots for any non-tier items as well (say those nice pants from M+), no matter how perfect stats, because without an effect they will always be substantially weaker. Its an entirely worse situation then just unbalanced trinkets. There is no way that any act of balancing could fix this. Trinkets you can fix with balancing, sets vs not wearing them? Only by making the sets meaningless, so might as well remove them.

[rhorle]

- Visual diversity will be gone. With no more artifact weapons, their transmogs are gone (old ones stay, obviously.) and with the removal of tiersets, i fear that every mail, leather, plate and cloth wearer will look the same, akin to Trial of Crusader tiersets.

So everyone of the same class sharing a handful of weapon appearances is different then everyone sharing a handful of weapon appearances?

[HyperJay]

Trinkets are inherently a different problem - they are designed to have a certain effect, and those can be imbalanced. If a 60 ilvl lower trinket is always the better choice, thats clearly also a problem, but its not quite the same.

Tier sets lock out slots for any non-tier items as well (say those nice pants from M+), no matter how perfect stats, because without an effect they will always be substantially weaker. Its an entirely worse situation then just unbalanced trinkets. There is no way that any act of balancing could fix this. Trinkets you can fix with balancing, sets vs not wearing them? Only by making the sets meaningless, so might as well remove them.

I think tier isn't as big a problem if the effect is good enough. Why does my Fury warrior use a 910 Convergence equiped still farming for another instead of using the Shadow Singed Fang or literally any other trinket, because they aren't balanced. And its the same with Tier, the only reason t20 is better than t21 for some cause the effects are insanely better, same with trinkets

[Nevcairiel]

And its the same with Tier the only reason t20 is better than t21 for some cause the effects are insanely better, same with trinkets

Its not the same with Tier, because you would not ever once look at a non-tier item on the same slot. There is no way it would have any chance, which discounts a huge group of gear from ever being viable, especially with M+ in the mix. Sure, some people wear old T20 because its stronger, but even if that wasn't the case, they would be wearing T21 - and not ever any non-tier items.

And you cannot fix this, because the items are the same strength on their own, tier just gets the added bonus, which always makes them stronger and basically locks out anything else.

[HyperJay]

Its not the same with Tier, because you would not ever once look at a non-tier item on the same slot. There is no way it would have any chance, which discounts a huge group of gear from ever being viable, especially with M+ in the mix. Sure, some people wear old T20 because its stronger, but even if that wasn't the case, they would be wearing T21 - and not ever any non-tier items.

And you cannot fix this, because the items are the same strength on their own, tier just gets the added bonus, which always makes them stronger and basically locks out anything else.

With AoE and ST I swap, OS and MS i swap tier pieces around. I enjoy having Rampage Bleeds so I'm more than fine keeping it equipped because its better than just some random Str Stam Crit Vers gear.

Also my bis tier pieces are Chest, Shoulders, Cloak and Hands but Im not using Chest im using Head because i have a 985 Crit Mastery Chest which sims higher.

[Corroc]

- We lose Tiersets. While they tended to lock down slots in armor, they are still more interesting than "stamina crit and hast" on a slot.

- We lose legendaries which where a nice way to customize classes. Especially in mythic+ you find yourself often switching between them for different situations. The method of acquiring these obviously sucked, but the idea itself was really really good. They do implement a few as talents, but thats it.

- Artifact weapons are gone, and with them a million passives (remember, WoD had passives as well while you leveled up). This time around, there won't be any passives from leveling, and there wont be any passives from artifact weapons.

- We trade in 20+ passives that completely changed how a class worked or had nice small effects for THREE effects from our Azerite "tierset".

These three things are basically the same thing. 20 passives is just outright lying. Some of these things were nonexistant dmg buffs. And by that I mean they had no other actual effect than buffing your dmg.

- We lose effects such as execute for Assa Rogues, Full Moon for owls, fall damage immunity for rogues, purgatory-lite for Fury warriors, sprint on leap for arms warriors, Ebonbolt for mages, the list goes on forever. One wonders how an elemental shaman will ever be able to do DPS without his legendary boots and gloves.

THis is the only real loss, but the development is still in alpha, we can only hope.

- Visual diversity will be gone. With no more artifact weapons, their transmogs are gone (old ones stay, obviously.) and with the removal of tiersets, i fear that every mail, leather, plate and cloth wearer will look the same, akin to Trial of Crusader tiersets.

From the looks of it, nothing about this is sounds correct. The pictures we had from alpha are looking pretty promising.

- Many classes class identity will suffer greatly from this. They feel incomplete and i HIGHLY doubt that 3 traits can change that.

From what? The things you have already stated? You are not good at making points.

- No level 120 talents, no "new" talents, no active effect from the azerite neck itself, no new spells for any class, nothing.

This is a thing. We can only see how this plays out but its one of the points that feel really hollow.

[Ineluki]

Im just worried because our specs were all reworked and balanced around both the artifacts and legendaries, especially the artifacts. I have a bad feeling everything will feel clunky, or really boring/slow. Im not passing judgement until I play it though.

[sillag]

they are very clearly trying to make this expansion as cheap to design as possible. there's virtually nothing actually new systems-wise and just a bunch of reused maps for warzones. reused models for allied races. etc.

even zandalar is a place where all the design work was mostly already done for them back in mop. basically what we are seeing here is their attempt to put wow into a maintenance mode. legion was good enough at keeping people playing. just give them a new AP currency to farm and some mythic+ and make a bad storyline and a raid.

[Vynestra]

We actually lose all of that and then we don't gain anything in return.

Specs were completely gutted to make way for an Artifact. So much so that the Legion pre-patch made almost every spec feel like you were handicapped.

Now we're heading back to that handi-capped state. Except... We have no Artifact. No new Artifact ability. All it is.... Is a fucking necklace.


No new 120 talent tier.

No new 120 ability.

Removal of 90% of Artifact Traits.

Removal of Gold Traits.

Artifact abilities removed/turned into talents. Shoved into existing talent rows forcing you to lose a talent you spent all of Legion with. (EG. Ret Paladin choose between Crusade OR Wake of Ashes(Artifact Ability).

Baseline abilities removed and turned into talents. (EG. Shadow Word: Death. Shadowpriest)



And people think a Necklace is going to fix this? LOL. Azerite gear has 3 traits to choose from. The example ones from Blizzcon were literally +% dmg to Stormstrike.

You seem to fail to mention azerite armor, which we have no idea how it'll impact us.

This is a stupid discussion to have right now until we actually know, you can't make the "LETS WAIT TIL LAUNCH TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK" argument either because you literally cannot provide feedback until we get the first glimpses of azerite armor.

[arandomuser]

feels like wod all over again

[Vynestra]

feels like wod all over again

if you forget about the azerite armor, world quests, M+, warfronts, and isle expeditions, reps that mean anything, and allied races...

Yes.

It is wod all over again.

But that's some serious amnesia, and you should get that checked out.

[Mellrod]

First, you constantly changed out legendaries. A hunter as example constantly switches between them in m+, same with warlocks.

Secondly, do you think the removal of tiersets changes anything? You get your BiS stat item and thats never gonna be replaced. But you lose set boni, and in return receive a stat stick that locks down the slot just as much because of its stats.

Maybe I haven't played in a while, but I distinctly remember people disliking Legion legendaries. and before that people disliked the intense amount of effort their guilds had to go through just to upgrade 1 or 2 player's gear slot to a legendary.

[Deleted]

Oh, Wow look at the casual crying about passives.

[corebit]

Good riddance to tier sets.

How many times have you received an upgrade armor piece, only you can't equip it because you need your 4p/2p bonus? Too many to count.

[Pattiecakes]

Are we losing the mission table and champions? That would be amazing.

[Deleted]

Good riddance to tier sets.

How many times have you received an upgrade armor piece, only you can't equip it because you need your 4p/2p bonus? Too many to count.

Have this really been a problem before legion? Can´t honestly remember.

[Deleted]

You know that we get to keep all obtained Artifact appearances, and even can get some variants after Legion is over? Stop spreading misinformation.

The only things that you will not be able to obtain in Artifact skins is the basic skin for Mage Tower challenges and Mythic+15 variant for the Balance of Power appearance tier. This is all.

- - - Updated - - -

Trust me.

They are still hated.

Not the legendaries, only the lottery.