AU Draenor is in our timeline?

[bbrewer]

I've been recently been engaged in the Draenor/Mag'har Orc debate and it got me thinking about AU Draenor's place in our timeline and I've thought of a radical/not-so radical idea, that being AU Draenor is actually in our timeline.

But first it's best to explain what we know about time travel in the warcraft universe. We know from Aman'Thul that there is one true timeline (Ours) and therefore presumably nearly infinite insignificant alternate ones, and that there will be some people who wish to change ours by going into the past, which our own characters have done several times. This has always been at the behest of the Bronze Dragons and therefore no change to the Main timeline have occurred.

We also know that there are many alternate timelines, some diverging only moderately from our own (AU Draenor) and some vastly different, Thrall-dying as a baby timeline, Hour of Twilight, etc. Kairoz's time shard thing has shown the ability to bring characters from these timelines to our own (War Crimes Novel) and have them interact with their MU counterparts without destroying our timeline, presumably because they are not from our past. So what if Kairoz physically brought the whole of AU Draenor into our universe, presumably taking up MU Draenors (Outlands) orbit around it's star. Outland can be assumed to be partially or at this point entirely submerged into the Twisting Nether akin to what happend to Argus. Vargoth states that Outlands situation is deteriorating constantly, the correlation could be that the more Outland enters the Twisting Nether, the more it degrades.

While this theory does sound tin-foily, I believe this may have been blizzards original intention. I distinctly remember a blizz employee being asked about this at Wods blizzcon (maybe even Metzen himself) and responding that it's like if someone went in time and brought and chair/table (I forget the example) and brought it back to out own. This could have been an off the cuff remark and i can't find the question and answer. This theory would also explain why the Burning Legion we fight in Wods is our own.

[Deleted]

From what I understand, when Garrosh and Kairoz went to AU Draenor, it's like they took a "picture" of Draenor at that time and copy-pasted it into our universe. Which is why there is no such thing as "AU Azeroth", only Draenor was affected.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its pretty clear WoD was just a pulled from the ass concept to shameless promote a movie that wasnt all that great with the fan base. (Not hating on the movie that much, I give it a solid C+ to B depending on my mood for the day, but it wasn't a master piece). So they wanted to recreate the whole "invasion" thing again but since they didnt want to retcon the whole game they just did a "time travel!" story and came up with bullshit to support it.

[lummiuster]

I've been recently been engaged in the Draenor/Mag'har Orc debate and it got me thinking about AU Draenor's place in our timeline and I've thought of a radical/not-so radical idea, that being AU Draenor is actually in our timeline.

But first it's best to explain what we know about time travel in the warcraft universe. We know from Aman'Thul that there is one true timeline (Ours) and therefore presumably nearly infinite insignificant alternate ones, and that there will be some people who wish to change ours by going into the past, which our own characters have done several times. This has always been at the behest of the Bronze Dragons and therefore no change to the Main timeline have occurred.

We also know that there are many alternate timelines, some diverging only moderately from our own (AU Draenor) and some vastly different, Thrall-dying as a baby timeline, Hour of Twilight, etc. Kairoz's time shard thing has shown the ability to bring characters from these timelines to our own (War Crimes Novel) and have them interact with their MU counterparts without destroying our timeline, presumably because they are not from our past. So what if Kairoz physically brought the whole of AU Draenor into our universe, presumably taking up MU Draenors (Outlands) orbit around it's star. Outland can be assumed to be partially or at this point entirely submerged into the Twisting Nether akin to what happend to Argus. Vargoth states that Outlands situation is deteriorating constantly, the correlation could be that the more Outland enters the Twisting Nether, the more it degrades.

While this theory does sound tin-foily, I believe this may have been blizzards original intention. I distinctly remember a blizz employee being asked about this at Wods blizzcon (maybe even Metzen himself) and responding that it's like if someone went in time and brought and chair/table (I forget the example) and brought it back to out own. This could have been an off the cuff remark and i can't find the question and answer. This theory would also explain why the Burning Legion we fight in Wods is our own.

What the hell does AU stands for?

[bbrewer]

What the hell does AU stands for?

Alternate Universe

[Qualia]

AU Draenor was ripped from it's timeline and brought to ours when the Hourglass of Eternity was used to connect the two via the Dark Portal.

This is how WoD was described to us. However, it was also described that the Legion is a single Legion across the multiverse. It's not 'our legion' for any reason - There is only one multi-universal Legion. That's it. That's the explanation.

Headcanons do not fit where we already have explanations for these things.

It's not, though. It's still in its own universe and timeline. We just jumped into that alternate universe and jumped back in time to access AU Draenor thanks to the connection Kairoz made using the Hourglass.

From what I understand, when Garrosh and Kairoz went to AU Draenor, it's like they took a "picture" of Draenor at that time and copy-pasted it into our universe. Which is why there is no such thing as "AU Azeroth", only Draenor was affected.

Blizzard already said there is an AU Azeroth to go with AU Draenor, they just didn't have any plan for it at that time. And no, AU Draenor isn't in our universe.

While I believe some Blizz employees has described it as such, this fact is never, ever communicated in game. So too say it is 100 percent a fact is just wrong.

Firstly, they never described it as such, and secondly, if they said it - or anything else - it will be 100% fact. Even if it goes against everything in game, it will turn into truth and the story have to reshape itself to accommodate this new "fact". That's how Words of God work.

[Aquamonkey]

I've been recently been engaged in the Draenor/Mag'har Orc debate and it got me thinking about AU Draenor's place in our timeline and I've thought of a radical/not-so radical idea, that being AU Draenor is actually in our timeline.

But first it's best to explain what we know about time travel in the warcraft universe. We know from Aman'Thul that there is one true timeline (Ours) and therefore presumably nearly infinite insignificant alternate ones, and that there will be some people who wish to change ours by going into the past, which our own characters have done several times. This has always been at the behest of the Bronze Dragons and therefore no change to the Main timeline have occurred.

We also know that there are many alternate timelines, some diverging only moderately from our own (AU Draenor) and some vastly different, Thrall-dying as a baby timeline, Hour of Twilight, etc. Kairoz's time shard thing has shown the ability to bring characters from these timelines to our own (War Crimes Novel) and have them interact with their MU counterparts without destroying our timeline, presumably because they are not from our past. So what if Kairoz physically brought the whole of AU Draenor into our universe, presumably taking up MU Draenors (Outlands) orbit around it's star. Outland can be assumed to be partially or at this point entirely submerged into the Twisting Nether akin to what happend to Argus. Vargoth states that Outlands situation is deteriorating constantly, the correlation could be that the more Outland enters the Twisting Nether, the more it degrades.

While this theory does sound tin-foily, I believe this may have been blizzards original intention. I distinctly remember a blizz employee being asked about this at Wods blizzcon (maybe even Metzen himself) and responding that it's like if someone went in time and brought and chair/table (I forget the example) and brought it back to out own. This could have been an off the cuff remark and i can't find the question and answer. This theory would also explain why the Burning Legion we fight in Wods is our own.

AU Draenor was ripped from it's timeline and brought to ours when the Hourglass of Eternity was used to connect the two via the Dark Portal.

This is how WoD was described to us.

From what I understand, when Garrosh and Kairoz went to AU Draenor, it's like they took a "picture" of Draenor at that time and copy-pasted it into our universe. Which is why there is no such thing as "AU Azeroth", only Draenor was affected.

Pretty much everything posted is wrong.

There is a multiverse. Aman'Thul was talking about the destiny of our timeline, not that our universe is the only valid one. Kairoz died before he could do anything other than take himself and Garrosh to WoD-Draenor. The orcs connected the DP to ours using the property of the Vision of Time shard resonating with the other pieces in our timeline in our (at the time of WoD) present. It had nothing to do with the Hourglass of Time except that some sand was used in the Vision of Time's original construction. WoD Draenor didn't go anywhere, it still sits in the WoD-verse in its own time. It was merely linked via the DP originally and then subsequently with various other portals.

[Sangris]

What the hell does AU stands for?

Alternate Universe.

OT: I'm pretty sure there was a tweet that said that there is an alternate Azeroth that goes with Draenor though.

Edit: Got beaten to it.

[bbrewer]

It doesn't have to be described in game. The characters in game do not know, that's why it's not described.

It's described outside of game by the people who made the game. Which, in fact, makes it more right than it just being said in game. Characters can have misinformation, or understand things incorrectly. The employees who literally build the lore are not going to be wrong.

Look, I would prefer it be in our universe as that would solve some of the problems, but to the best of my knowledge, and i went back and checked. I could not find a single mention by the developers, of AU Draenor being brought into our universe. The only thing i have to go on is a memory of someone at blizzcon being asked a question and giving the chair answer. If you can find a definitive statement from them, perfect. Again, I would prefer this option.

[Deleted]

If there is indeed an AU Azeroth, then why does the Legion try so hard to corrupt/destroy/whatever our Azeroth ? Since the Legion "transcends all realities and dimensions", wouldn't it be easier to invade AU Azeroth since they would face a much smaller resistance there (no Horde, etc.) ?

WoD lore is a mess.

[bbrewer]

Just another thought that i'm going to through out there. We know that the Titans had mastery over time or at the very least Aman'Thul, so maybe when Sargeras killed him, it sundered the timeways and created many little alternate ones when there was only one main one prior. So events before this (Creation of the Burning Legion, titans themselves, Pre-ordered Azeroth) have no alternate counterparts whereas events after (Post-Ordered Azeroth, Draenor) do, with all still being subjected to a main timeline (Ours

[Aquamonkey]

I still get the same question over and over again -- is there an alternate Azeroth to go with the alternate Draenor?
Yes!

Are we going to see it?
I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway.(Source)

May I ask a question? In your interview with Jessie Cox, you compared WoD's Draenor with the Alt Azeroth of THRALL: TotA I understood, by reading the book, that said Alt Azeroth vanished/crumbled when T realized present is what matters.
That scene represented the fact that Thrall (and Noz) could with that realization escape the grasp of the Timeways not that the alternate Timeways were destroyed. (ChristieGolden)

[Sangris]

Just another thought that i'm going to through out there. We know that the Titans had mastery over time or at the very least Aman'Thul, so maybe when Sargeras killed him, it sundered the timeways and created many little alternate ones when there was only one main one prior. So events before this (Creation of the Burning Legion, titans themselves, Pre-ordered Azeroth) have no alternate counterparts whereas events after (Post-Ordered Azeroth, Draenor) do, with all still being subjected to a main timeline (Ours

There is no main timeline. Our timeline is only relevant because it's the one the game (and books) is set in.

[Vonazak]

Its pretty clear WoD was just a pulled from the ass concept to shameless promote a movie that wasnt all that great with the fan base. (Not hating on the movie that much, I give it a solid C+ to B depending on my mood for the day, but it wasn't a master piece). So they wanted to recreate the whole "invasion" thing again but since they didnt want to retcon the whole game they just did a "time travel!" story and came up with bullshit to support it.

I loved the movie, as our chinese overlords did.

The problem with WOD was its execution, no its premise.

[Aucald]

There is no main timeline. Our timeline is only relevant because it's the one the game (and books) is set in.

Generally that hinges on Aman'thul's words to Nozdormu when he was annointed as an Aspect:

"Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time."

This was seen as making *our* version of the timeline the main one, and every other as a shadow or a corruption, depending. Whether this remains a truth or not is kind of up for grabs now that we know that the Titans themselves are no longer unique - so Aman'thul may just have been referring to the timeline of our universe relevant to it, and not the timelines of other universes.

[Aquamonkey]

If there is indeed an AU Azeroth, then why does the Legion try so hard to corrupt/destroy/whatever our Azeroth ? Since the Legion "transcends all realities and dimensions", wouldn't it be easier to invade AU Azeroth since they would face a much smaller resistance there (no Horde, etc.) ?

WoD lore is a mess.

Blizzard initially envisioned WoD-verse to be completely separate, with its own Twisting Nether and its own Burning Legion.

Question, with the Draenor we travel to in WoD. Is this Draenor connected to our Twisting nether, or an alternate one?
Likely an entire separate universe, but we're not addressing it in the expansion. Focus is Draenor! (DaveKosak)

But they threw that out the window because they wanted to use "our" Archimonde to make it extra dramatic.

[Grocalis]

Alternate Universe.

OT: I'm pretty sure there was a tweet that said that there is an alternate Azeroth that goes with Draenor though.

Got a link? Never seen anything mentioning that. Though it wouldn't surprise me, the twitter account kind of goes off the rails sometimes and isn't really the will of the creative team.

My headcanon has always been that AU Draenor was ripped into our timeline, rather then us traveling to their timeline. Here are the base reasons...

1) It does a better job of explaining how the demons we fight are said to be "our" demons (AKA MU Archimonde), rather then the silly throwaway mention that demons somehow exist in all timelines. Shouldn't this mean there are like infinite Archimondes and such? demons don't start out demons, they become them, and thus if becoming a demon makes you now exist in all timelines, then they really would be infinite.

2) It explains why the orcs still ended up building the Dark Portal in the same exact spot in Tanaan Jungle as they did in the MU, as they are still utilizing the same rift that has existed in some form since WC1. They just hijacked it using Gul'dan's power, as otherwise they would have needed someone powerful on the other side (AKA Medivh) to complete the stable rift formation. They didn't need that since the rift was already there, and has been for a long time, even if weakened.

3) It prevents the absurdity of having "Alternates" of everything in the cosmos. By bringing Draenor to our timeline, they effectively are now part of our space, and thus exist in our space. We won't have issues of multiple titans, multiple azeroth's, multiple argus's, multiple void horrors, etc. Since our Draenor was blown up and flung into the Twisting Nether, the space it once existed is open for alternate draenor to just be plopped in and nothing needs to change.

4) It explains why they are still around at all. Let's be real here, as much as Nozdormu may have been weakened after the fall of Deathwing, we know he still has a ton of powers over time (as he later becomes an Infinite), and after the threat of the Iron Horde was ended, he likely would put all his power into severing the connection between our timeline and that of the alternate much like he did in the Thrall novel and it's alternate timelines. The fact that they keep implying that WoD Draenor is around to stay, makes me feel this is more then just a time connection.

In the end, it's up to Blizzard, but it just fits way better this way then much of the narrative gymnastics they attempted to explain away other oddities.

P.S. Ah I see it was mentioned by Alex. I love Alex, but one thing to note is that Alex isn't exactly the end all when it comes to the creative beats of WarCraft. Remember that scene in Stonetalon with Garrosh in which he is noble? That was what Alex wanted to do with him, but the other creative heads at Blizzard had other plans for him, and the disconnect has caused one of the most glaring mistakes in the game narrative.

[Sangris]

Generally that hinges on Aman'thul's words to Nozdormu when he was annointed as an Aspect:

"Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time."

This was seen as making *our* version of the timeline the main one, and every other as a shadow or a corruption, depending. Whether this remains a truth or not is kind of up for grabs now that we know that the Titans themselves are no longer unique - so Aman'thul may just have been referring to the timeline of our universe relevant to it, and not the timelines of other universes.

To me this sounds like Aman'thul charging Nozdormu with ensuring that all events transpire the way they are destined to. The caverns of time deal mostly with the Infinite Dragonflight trying to change the past, which of course would completely alter the future of the timeline. That in turn would erase the "true" timeline (true in the sense of it being how it was until now, the way it was meant to be).

On a side note, I think I'm recalling Blizzard saying that Titans do not transcend timelines and are seperate in all AUs (except Sargeras for whatever plothole reason). If that is true, it would make sense that our Aman'thul would refer to our timeline as the true one, aswell as AU Aman'thul would refer to his timeline as the true one etc.

Edit:

Got a link? Never seen anything mentioning that. Though it wouldn't surprise me, the twitter account kind of goes off the rails sometimes and isn't really the will of the creative team.

@Aquamonkey already quoted it in this thread.

[Aquamonkey]

Do Titans also transcend all realities or are there multiple Titans?
They don't, there are multiple titans, they are searching the cosmos for additional Titans. (Muffinus)

Also the intro CoT quest says that there are infinite timeways, but they only monitor the ones connected to our reality (universe).

"These tunnels that you see are called timeways. They are infinite in number. The ones that currently exist in your reality are what the master has deemed as "trouble spots". These trouble spots may differ completely in theme but they always share a cause. That is, their existence is a result of the same temporal disturbance."

[UNHEILVOLL]

It still doesn't make any sense. If there are infinite universes, why does Sargeras insists on attack this Azeroth universe, where we have defeated him like 3 times? Why doesn't he just corrupt the AU-Azeroth, make a Dark Titan and fuck up the Void Lords?

Are also the Void Lords just 1 across the multiverse or we have one set of Void Lords per universe?

Why can't be the true reason "a mage did it", so we can sleep tight and not have any time-travellin multi.versing nightmares?????