AU Draenor is in our timeline?

[Deleted]

After my last post i immediately though of Justice League Crisis on Two Earth's and then right after you posted this

Yep, that's how it works. I keep seeing it like DC Multiverse. Each Universe has several timelines (that's why Flashpoint keeps affecting Earth 0) and there is a Multiverse. AU Draenor isn't a different timeline, but a different Universe.

[Aquamonkey]

My understanding is that he would have been born? According to wowpedia on the timeline of things, the ritual with Mannoroth's blood was only off by a year. Then the Dark Portal gets built, not entirely sure how fast that went.

Granted, Thrall was a baby when the invasion stuff happened, and I'm not entirely clear on the timeline after the drinking of Mannoroth's blood

WoD takes place in Year -2, with the blood offering happening in Year -4. In the MU, the blood was offered in Year -3. Thrall was born in Year 1. Apparently Thrall's parents found the death of their planet and starvation of their people a huge turn on. So with our interference in the WoD-verse, maybe Thrall won't be born.

[bbrewer]

Yeah... So... What makes you think that wasn't always the case if he sees an infinite fractal structure, we have a Titan with control over traversing that exact fractal structure since the beginning of time as far as we are aware, and we have confirmed proof that Mortals could mess with that exact fractal structure prior to the fall of the pantheon, given Nozdormu was given his power prior to the fall of the Pantheon?

Ah, this is where i believe the point of contention between us is. I think this will solve everything. I'm not saying your wrong in the sense that alternate timelines have always existed. I'm merely saying that you can't prove that they were. You very well could be right, if you interpret the info a certain way you could logically make that assumption. I just happen to believe the opposite because I like it better and if you interpret it in another way, you can assume the opposite. You're right, mortals could screw with timelines before the pantheons' fall, my theory just stated that the Pantheon/Doomguards/Nozdormu type people were policing this and that after the Pantheons fall is when the AU's spread like weeds.

[bbrewer]

Yes, but that doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying.

If it COULD happen before, and it wouldn't affect our timeline whatsoever, why would it be policed? AU Draenor clearly existed before we attached it to our timeline - So if it's never going to affect us, why would it ever be policed?

That's the issue. AUs all exist - But WoD's AU was directly connected to ours. That's what makes it relevant. We already know of two other AUs which also exist - One where Jaina lets her hatred get the better of her, and another where Baine is warchief after killing Garrosh. They're just not connected to ours, so we don't care about them whatsoever.

But it could affect our timeline, the fact that someone went back and formed an army and then invaded another world proves it. This is what the Pantheon would try and prevent, People from going back into there own timelines to try and change the future or people going to AU's that have split off for some sinister purpose. Let's not forget that at there core, the Titans are beings of order and as this thread has proven, theres nothing more chaotic then time travel.

[Deleted]

Yes, but that doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying.

If it COULD happen before, and it wouldn't affect our timeline whatsoever, why would it be policed? AU Draenor clearly existed before we attached it to our timeline - So if it's never going to affect us, why would it ever be policed?

That's the issue. AUs all exist - But WoD's AU was directly connected to ours. That's what makes it relevant. We already know of two other AUs which also exist - One where Jaina lets her hatred get the better of her, and another where Baine is warchief after killing Garrosh. They're just not connected to ours, so we don't care about them whatsoever.

The problem is Blizzard didn't defined yet what's a timeline and what's an universe.

King Blackmoore was an alternate timeline or an alternate universe, for example?

[bbrewer]

The problem is Blizzard didn't defined yet what's a timeline and what's an universe.

King Blackmoore was an alternate timeline or an alternate universe, for example?

The way that iv'e read the tea leaves is that like Crisis on Two Earth's theirs one focal point and that with every decision more sprout. So if we assume our Azeroth is Azeroth Prime then the Blackmore one would be like Azeroth-37 or something, so whatever's done over there would have no effect unless someone brings over something. So if it's not MU Azeroth or the bronze drakes dgaf about what we do over there, then it's an AU. If we have to walk on egg shells or it's directly stated then its in Azeroth-Primes past.

[iamthedevil]

If there is only one Legion, then shouldn't there be an Argus out the from AU Draenor that the Legion never conquered but just hired the Draenei and left? Or is that Argus a Legion planet but does not have Antorus on it? Does it have a world soul? WTF is this shit.

[huth]

Yep, that's how it works. I keep seeing it like DC Multiverse. Each Universe has several timelines (that's why Flashpoint keeps affecting Earth 0) and there is a Multiverse. AU Draenor isn't a different timeline, but a different Universe.

They can be the same thing functionally. AU Draenor happens to be in a universe that is largely the same as the MU, except for a ~30 year time lag.(Well, and some minor differences... that we know of.)

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If there is only one Legion, then shouldn't there be an Argus out the from AU Draenor that the Legion never conquered but just hired the Draenei and left? Or is that Argus a Legion planet but does not have Antorus on it? Does it have a world soul? WTF is this shit.

Maybe, maybe not. We won't know unless Blizzard tells us.

[bbrewer]

If there is only one Legion, then shouldn't there be an Argus out the from AU Draenor that the Legion never conquered but just hired the Draenei and left? Or is that Argus a Legion planet but does not have Antorus on it? Does it have a world soul? WTF is this shit.

If you believe that AU's have always existed then almost certainly. If AU's started really popping up after the fall of the pantheon or shortly after Sargeras recruits the Eredar (The Next Thing he did) then no, there only one and it's in the twisting nether.

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Except that it can't, unless someone makes it happen. All the Titans had to do to maintain order was not allow the timelines to intersect. Which is easy enough, "Hey this person is messing with time magic, let's put a stop to it."

Which is what they did.

Think about in two ways. 1, If the Illidan quote holds any weight, then AU's are created by divergence of thought and if Aman'thul is the first being in the physical univere then he could be a person-prime sort of guy which is why he has mastery over time. 2. If thought does lead to divergence then if the Pantheon dropped the ball for even a second AU's could magnify exponentially, which would go against their very nature. so it would be better to stamp them out like weeds. I only hold to this theory because it explains why its our legion on Draenor rather then the stupid af explanation that they transcend all realities.

Who's too say that they didin't let some AU's survive and destroy others that went a little too off the rails.

EDIT: Meant divergence, not convurgence

[Qualia]

If there is only one Legion, then shouldn't there be an Argus out the from AU Draenor that the Legion never conquered but just hired the Draenei and left? Or is that Argus a Legion planet but does not have Antorus on it? Does it have a world soul? WTF is this shit.

It entirely depends on the Legion, actually. While there are a multiverse with infinite possible universes, there is only one Legion. That means any effect on the universe related to the Legion need to be done specifically by them, and those aren't infinite. For example, in regard to what you were wondering, it depends entirely on whether Sargeras and the Legion decided that it was worth it to do whatever they want on that Argus. If they wanted to hire the Draenei from Argus in an universe and managed to find a suitable universe, they could, and there would be an Argus that were never conquered by the Legion but with the Draenei being hired mercenary for Sargeras. However, if the Legion never thought about it, then there wouldn't be one regardless how many universes out there. Similarly to Antorus, theoretically, AU Arguses might only have it if the Legion decide that they want two Antorus for some reasons and built it.

[bbrewer]

That makes you wrong, as it is entirely confirmed that there is one, multiuniversal Legion.

Yes, it's dumb and I hate it. It's still canon lore.

Never said there was more then one legion.

[Syegfryed]

Pretty much everything posted is wrong.

There is a multiverse. Aman'Thul was talking about the destiny of our timeline, not that our universe is the only valid one. Kairoz died before he could do anything other than take himself and Garrosh to WoD-Draenor. The orcs connected the DP to ours using the property of the Vision of Time shard resonating with the other pieces in our timeline in our (at the time of WoD) present. It had nothing to do with the Hourglass of Time except that some sand was used in the Vision of Time's original construction. WoD Draenor didn't go anywhere, it still sits in the WoD-verse in its own time. It was merely linked via the DP originally and then subsequently with various other portals.

tbh, this is the "worst" excuse they could come up, i still think, it would be more easy do the others ways

[Aquamonkey]

There were many easier, better ways to do this, including but not limited do "We literally created a pocket dimension that exists in this moment in time." Which, in all honesty, probably would have been the best way to do exactly what they did without ripping into multiverse theory or transdimensional Legion.

They just didn't.

They could always do it retroactively again, like they did with CoT Mount Hyjal.

[bbrewer]

You conveniently left out the fact that it's multiuniversal.

Which is also canon.

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There were many easier, better ways to do this, including but not limited do "We literally created a pocket dimension that exists in this moment in time." Which, in all honesty, probably would have been the best way to do exactly what they did without ripping into multiverse theory.

They just didn't.

Semantics again.
When i give an example of an igame occurrence of the devs not being consistent you argued to no ends that it wasin't so, yet you're fine with using a tweet by someone that in itself creates more plot holes then answers to back up you're point? Look, at the end of the day i do see your point and how someone can make the leaps to believe what you do, i just don't think it's as solidly canon as you do. I give greater preference to in game stuff, published lore and then anything else.

I would ask that you read my post where i first outlined my theory, i feel like you're trying to pick apart every post for every minor perceived infraction with out taking into context the whole of what i said. I can't keep repeating stuff i said every time, so of course there's going to be instances where ive left some minor thing out.

[huth]

Never said there was more then one legion.

You're holding on to a theory because it lets you explain away something that was already explicitly confirmed.

So, in effect, you're holding on to it out of denial.


There being only one Legion in the Multiverse would certainly explain why Sargeras was looking for a different solution, since they'd have no practical way of succeeding at their task as is.

tbh, this is the "worst" excuse they could come up, i still think, it would be more easy do the others ways

Why would it be easier? There's no real problems with it to begin with. Kairoz made a portal to another world. That's pretty much all that happened.

That world just happened to be largely similar to Draenor 30 years ago. Had it been opened to the world of Nordrae where the Iron Alliance of the Nordraen started an invasion of Azeroth while the Cro fought for their survival, nobody would have batted an eye at it. Well, outside of the lazy names.

[Syegfryed]

Why would it be easier? There's no real problems with it to begin with. Kairoz made a portal to another world. That's pretty much all that happened.

That world just happened to be largely similar to Draenor 30 years ago. Had it been opened to the world of Nordrae where the Iron Alliance of the Nordraen started an invasion of Azeroth while the Cro fought for their survival, nobody would have batted an eye at it. Well, outside of the lazy names.

did you saw the explanation? he didn't just open a portal to another world, is a portal to another multiverse, another time, and another reality, its fucked up.

it would be easier because it would be more simple, and you could use in the future

[bbrewer]

You're holding on to a theory because it lets you explain away something that was already explicitly confirmed.

So, in effect, you're holding on to it out of denial.


There being only one Legion in the Multiverse would certainly explain why Sargeras was looking for a different solution, since they'd have no practical way of succeeding at their task as is.


Why would it be easier? There's no real problems with it to begin with. Kairoz made a portal to another world. That's pretty much all that happened.

That world just happened to be largely similar to Draenor 30 years ago. Had it been opened to the world of Nordrae where the Iron Alliance of the Nordraen started an invasion of Azeroth while the Cro fought for their survival, nobody would have batted an eye at it. Well, outside of the lazy names.

In you're own words what do you think I've been trying to explain away? and how was it confirmed? I'm genuinely curious as too what your arguing with me about as like you, i believe there is one legion, we may differ on how we think it got there, but i can see both sides.
The difference between us is I don't see my ''side'' as being any more ''right'' then yours, I just happen to like it better.

EDIT: Haha, I thought you were fleugian, but still, tell me what you think i've been trying to explain away.

[bbrewer]

I get your whole point.

It's incorrect because there are multiple flaws with your theory. If your theory is flawed, it is incorrect. You can't be right if you're making illogical conclusions, even if the end result is similar it is not the same.

You are explicitly denying a fact of the lore based purely on the idea that you don't like it and it doesn't make sense. And with that, I agree, it is dumb and doesn't make sense. That, however, makes it no less canon.

It is not semantics. You are outright denying lore to fit it with a headcanon. That is flawed.

What is this fact of lore? This tweet from 2015 ''Archimonde is a demon whose demon soul is anchored to the Nether. The Nether transcends all realities. That is all.'' What does this mean? presumably that not matter how many timelines, time ways, AU's or MU's or what ever term you want to give, there is one Burning Legion.
A fact that both us agree on i'm sure. And that beings from it have no alternate counterparts such the Nathrezim. But Archimonde is not from the Nether, he is from argus. So is there one Tichondrius, Mannoroth and Sargeras (Another tweet or blue post has stated as such) but infinite Archimondes and Kiljaedens?

Or could one split it up along sentence lines in which we can gleam the Twisting Nether is outside or above (The meaning of Transcend) our universe and therefore our time (A fact supported by Chronicle), but this doesn't directly say that it's connected to every AU, etc, etc, merely outside them and there rules, a different universe so to speak. So i still don't see how this conclusively proves i'm wrong.

Now my grip with this statement isn't the fact that the Nether is outside our universe, it's the fact that the BL is by way of it and no other explanation and therefore brings the infinite Archimonde conundrum. The statement is saying that the Nether transcends all realities, not necessarily Archimonde.

[Qualia]

did you saw the explanation? he didn't just open a portal to another world, is a portal to another multiverse, another time, and another reality, its fucked up.

it would be easier because it would be more simple, and you could use in the future

? That's not what explanation said. Kairoz only opened a portal to another universe and back in the past of that universe. He didn't open a portal to another multiverse. Basically, there is a multiverse consist of, well, multiple existing universes. Ours is one of those universe, AU is another. Each universe has its own existing main / true timeline, and an infinite amount of possible timelines as possibilities. Our Aman'thul was referring to our timeline, which is the main timeline.

Why is it fucked up anyway? That's hardly something complex or rarely seen in fiction, and there wasn't any glaring hole that can't be explained. If you ask me, teleporting a whole planet from another universe in the past and bringing it to the present sounds a lot more difficult than simply opening a gap / connection between two location when you already know their coordination in time and space.

[bbrewer]

Which has also already been confirmed as "No, there is only one Archimonde." I'm pretty sure that was in response to this same tweet.

You then try to purposely reword the statement and draw a false conclusion from it. The Nether does not transcend our reality. It transcends all realities. Meaning your entire paragraph is based on misreading the statement - It literally does directly say that it transcends all realities. There's no line to say "But ours is connected" so drawing the conclusion that our reality is somehow unique in some way is a leap and a bound.

Dude, i never implied that it never, I was just using ours as an example. I do state that it is in fact outside them the same as ours my two quotes on them are '' how many timelines, time ways, AU's or MU's or what ever term you want to give, there is one Burning Legion.'' and ''but this doesn't directly say that it's connected to every AU, etc, etc, merely outside them and there rules, a different universe so to speak'' The etc's being the stuff from the first quote i didin't want to type again.

I would like to see the tweet about there being only 1 archimonde (I actually believe there is, but under this tweet it could be taken to mean that there isin't). The only thing Alex said was that its complicated and that's not how demon's work.

I am not misreading anything, merely saying that alot of stuff blizzard posts, especially about this topic is pretty vague if not contradictory at times, so talking about timeways in absolute terms is pointless and honestly kills the conversation. It's open to interpretation and will prob always be, as blizzard will prob never iron it out definitively.