Russia Attacked U.S. Troops in Syria

[Slant]

Out of interest, how is your country's politicians/media reacting to the Turks using the Leopard 2 tanks you sold them for defense to invade Syria and attack the Kurds? And to them losing the things in combat left and right?

(I'm not having a dig, I wanna know your/Germany's take on it).

We're not happy about it. It will be politically difficult to sell Turkey more arms in the future. Popular opinion doesn't connect us to those tanks, however. We don't feel responsible. We sell weapons all over the place and the best we can do is try to sell it to the "good guys". Sometimes we fail, just like other nations sometimes misjudge a country's intent.

As for the Leopards getting destroyed. Those are Leo2A4 variants. We knew they were shit, that's why we wanted to get rid of them. The A4 is an 80s model. Turkey bought our old stores of used tanks and that's what's getting destroyed over there.

As for what we use, we're on A7 these days. And as an acquaintance with connections to tank division says... "Only an A7 can take out an A7." So it doesn't concern us at all. What concerns us is that we do not have enough A7s to consider them an entire division. We're severely lacking in spare parts and maintenance man hours. That's a much bigger problem than the A4s getting wrecked in Syria. The German army has been mismanaged by imbecile MoDs that want to further their insignificant political career on the backs of our troops. Easily done, mind you, since the public still isn't too fond of its armed forces. It's interesting to see how the shadow of WW2 still looms over us today, if only at a subconscious level. It'll pass over the years, but right now, we're pretty much heading towards rock bottom as far as the army goes.

[Noradin]

I keep remembering some talk I overheard in school. So a Syrian girl and a Turkish boy got into a bit of a cheeky argument over whose country is better and as it turns out, Turkey wins. Cos they own the mountains from which water flows into Northern Syria. And apparently, somewhere is a hidden valve that would stop the water flow and let Syria turn into a desert.

Yes, Erdogan has been busy building these dams for a while now.

[Dsonsion]

In the article they even quote Mattis saying:
"I have no idea why they would attack there, the forces were known to be there, obviously the Russians knew," he said. "We have always known that there are elements in this very complex battle space that the Russians did not have, I would call it, control of."
And then proceed to doubt the one who would be most informed about it...

Which sounds like a way to deflect too much attention on the subject and a smart one at de-escalating the situation too. A full-blown conflict sparking from that incident would benefit no one. I would bet Mattis thinks different than what he says.

[Breccia]

Russia admits they were Russian citizens.

Still denies official involvement.

[Slant]

Russia admits they were Russian citizens.

Still denies official involvement.

So, I'll save this for the next hypothetical Russia vs. USA thread then? Great. Perhaps this will shut Putinistas up aber their world domination dreams.

[Shalcker]

So, I'll save this for the next hypothetical Russia vs. USA thread then? Great. Perhaps this will shut Putinistas up aber their world domination dreams.

Hmm, what about it? :/

Do you seriously prefer if such events would be followed by immediate escalation?

...because you might get it after Putin is out.

[Deleted]

There is already a thread on this...

[Slant]

Hmm, what about it? :/

Do you seriously prefer if such events would be followed by immediate escalation?

...because you might get it after Putin is out.

Yes, because Putin is calming shit down. :P

[Mafic]

IIRC it was Syrian forces backed by Russian mercs that attack a base belonging to (US backed) extremists where US advisors were stationed and so the USAF got called in to roflstomp the advancing ground forces.

It's going to get even crazier soon as the the Syrian forces are being sent north to backup the (US backed) Kurds against the (Turkish backed) extremists and the Turkish invasion force.

Yeah this is getting nuts and then Israel can throw it all off if they intervene.

[Shalcker]

Yes, because Putin is calming shit down. :P

He is, indeed.

Whoever comes after him is bound to be more aggressive.

[caervek]

Russia admits they were Russian citizens.

Still denies official involvement.

I know a lot of people will be quick to jump straight on the "they were Russian so that must mean they were sent by Russia because reasons" bandwagon, but looking at the other side of the coin does it worry anyone else that private military corporations have now become so powerful that they are able to have an impact on the course of actual wars?

I mean it was one thing for US PMCs to be involved in Iraq after the war, but this is a private corporation making money by sending hired guns to fight for the highest bidder in an ongoing civil war, it's just not something that sits right with me.

[Noradin]

"You better ignore any rigging in the elections and hope Putin stays president for life because replacing him would be dangerous for you!"

Better yet: "Only someone much worse that Putin could stomach what would be needed to oust him."

[Shalcker]

"You better ignore any rigging in the elections and hope Putin stays president for life because replacing him would be dangerous for you!"

It is certainly dangerous; but it still has to be done eventually.

- - - Updated - - -

Better yet: "Only someone much worse that Putin could stomach what would be needed to oust him."

That certainly depends on your definition of "worse".

[Breccia]

Looks like we're not done.

WaPo reports that Yevgeniy Prigozhin, a Russian oligarch who has an active military force in Syria, was communicating with both the Syrian government and the Kremlin around the time of the attack.

In an intercepted January cable to a Syrian official, Prigozhin said he had "secured permission" from a Russian minister for a “fast and strong” initiative in early February, per the Post.

Prigozhin being a Putin ally carrying out the attack would be implication enough that Putin signed off on it, but apparently, there is now evidence that he actually did.

"Wait, haven't I heard that name before?"

Putin? Yeah, he's the murdering dictator who --

"Not that name. The other one, Yevgeniy Prigozhin."

Well, he served nine years in prison for robbery.

"No, something more recent."

Um, he got $3 billion in no-bid contracts from Putin for providing meals to the Russian military?

"No, something more recent than that, but just as shady as the first two."

Well, unless you mean he's one of the guys indicted by Mueller --

"Yes, that's it, that's the one. So, wait, this blatantly corrupt criminal that works for Putin, called Putin for permission, then attacked US troops right after being indicted?"

That's what it looks like, yes.

[caervek]

So, wait, this blatantly corrupt criminal that works for Putin, called Putin for permission, then attacked US troops right after being indicted?

Nobody attacked any US troops, the Syrian forces advanced into an area held by rebel extremists who had US advisors on hand, the USAF then turned the Syrian forces into a crater before they could become a danger to the US advisors.

[Noradin]

That certainly depends on your definition of "worse".

"More aggressive" in this case, you know what your "warning" was about.

[Shalcker]

"More aggressive" in this case, you know what your "warning" was about.

Well, one of most common complaints about Putin in foreign policy is him being reactive rather then then proactive.

That doesn't necessarily mean aggressive actions, but it certainly doesn't exclude those.

[Breccia]

Nobody attacked any US troops, the Syrian forces advanced into an area held by rebel extremists who had US advisors on hand, the USAF then turned the Syrian forces into a crater before they could become a danger to the US advisors.

So...a group of Syrians with Russians in them, attacked a group of Syrians with Americans in them (hence, the danger to US advisors -- they were physically present).

I'm really not sure what you were going with here.

[ParanoiD84]

And got stomped hard lol.

[caervek]

I'm really not sure what you were going with here.

The title makes it sound like the was a battle between the Russian and US militaries. The reality was that a Syrian military force backed by Jewish/Christian militias and hired Iranian, Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries was attacked by the US air force for advancing towards an extremist position which had US advisors stationed nearby helping the insurgents. It's not the same thing.