Primer on Firearms

[ArguesWithStrangers]

I bet school kids are glad that you clarified and defined what they die to when some asshole randomly shoots them.....

Did he harm the children by providing accurate information? Are facts now to blame?

[Gob]

ASSAULT RIFLE - Generally a military weapon with user-selectable options for fire, typically semiautomatic, 3-round burst, or fully automatic.
...
ASSAULT WEAPON - A meaningless, loaded term used in the gun control debate that has no real relationship to any particular class of weapon. Sometimes it means semi-automatic weapons with a vertical underbarrel grip. Sometimes it means Assault Rifle, as above. Sometimes it means something else entirely.

Pretty sure those are meant to mean the same thing.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

"We should ban what ever the AR-15 is called" - the poster is a rational person, with some medical background who understands reality.

Fact - AR-15 : DESIGNED TO KILL PEOPLE (it literally detonates organs in your body due to the velocity of entry)

You want your toys, then keep it to the defensive ones.

If you have an AR-15 - then your intent is to kill people. End of story.

Ref: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/

You're being a bit unfair. Lot's of people buy AR-15s with only the intention to hunt or use it for target practice. They have low recoil and are fun to shoot. Now, it is an accurate statement to say that AR-15s are designed to kill people, but we don't have a 2nd Amendment to hunt elk. We have one to keep the populace sufficiently armed to act as a check on Tyranny. Now you're free to disagree with that concept if you wish, but it's baked into our national DNA. Even liberals are armed to the teeth in this country. Every time the Democrats make a hard push for gun control they get crushed in the next election cycle. The guns are here to stay my friend.

[Dsc]

Come and Take It. Please try. I know myself and a slew of firearms owners are sick of the B.S.

Honestly, if they really want a civil war. ( which the Bolsheviks here do )

Shit or get off the pot.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Let Americans keep their guns, just replace them with Muskets and Flintlock pistols!

I would love to get my hands on a Brown Bess.

Smooth bore black powder can be loaded with ball or shot.

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Come and Take It. Please try. I know myself and a slew of firearms owners are sick of the B.S.

Honestly, if they really want a civil war. ( which the Bolsheviks here do )

Shit or get off the pot.

I prefer to stay on the pot and laugh at the shit.

[Antiganon]

Pretty sure those are meant to mean the same thing.

If so, why do people keep talking about wanting to ban assault weapons, when select-fire rifles have been illegal for decades?

[Antiganon]

Yes, you can. You're being pointlessly pedantic to an insane extreme.

Call me pedantic if you want, I'll own that. But this isn't pointless.

We have people in like 5 threads talking about assault weapons, with no clear definition for what that means.

We have some people talking about hunting rifles and assault weapons like they are two different things, and other people talking about using an AR-15 to hunt.

We have people talking about holding the trigger and spraying ammunition with a semiautomatic rifle.

With the vitriol being thrown around on both sides, we need to at least be working with the same set of facts. Willful ignorance of basic gun terminology (and this shit is basic, note in the OP where I specifically say I am not nearly qualified to give more detail than I already did) makes gun-control proponents look like they care more about taking something away from "those people" than actually reducing gun violence.

[Endus]

No, you quoted Wikipedia, which, for obvious reasons, isn't allowed to be cited in almost all academic papers. Not to mention the fact that language used came from the original assault weapons bill designed to try to describe a weapon system that is largely fear-mongered by liberals to justify banning it.

The only reason Wikipedia isn't cited in academic circles is because it's a tertiary source, like all encyclopedias. And academic papers are expected to rely upon primary and secondary sources. Because you've already moved to greater complexity than you can find in tertiary sources.

But when someone is wrong about really basic stuff, Wikipedia is just fine to link. That it's a tertiary source doesn't say anything negative about its reliability or accuracy.

http://www.beyondplagiarism.sweetlan...es-of-sources/

[PickleballAce]

Did he harm the children by providing accurate information? Are facts now to blame?

Meh, there's a lot of crocodile tears being shed around here lately. You think deep down some of these people aren't exactly upset that a bunch of young red-staters got whacked?

[Antiganon]

Meh, there's a lot of crocodile tears being shed around here lately. You think deep down some of these people aren't exactly upset that a bunch of young red-staters got whacked?

Fucking despicable.

Get out of here with that bullshit.

I want democrat backed gun control to actually pass, not die in committee because the fuckheads drafting it dont know what words mean.

[PickleballAce]

Fucking despicable.

Get out of here with that bullshit.

1) No.

2) While the second point is definitely intentionally provocative, I'm fairly comfortable with the belief that much of the outrage here and elsewhere is feigned. Just as many Trumpsters enjoy when box trucks roll down a European esplanade because it reinforces their narrative, I think a lot of people on the other side get the same feeling from mass shootings. I won't apologize for that. There would be no point in calling anyone out individually, but I hope it makes everyone question their intentions.

[Antiganon]

1) No.

2) While the second point is definitely intentionally provocative, I'm fairly comfortable with the belief that much of the outrage is feigned.

Whose outrage?

I'm pissed because the people arguing my side of this debate are largely gun illiterate, which makes the valid points raised look incredibly stupid.

[Zeta333]

How many threads do we need about guns?

Considering most of you dont know the difference between a semi auto and a full auto and that assault weapon is a fake ass term, prob some more.

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Nope. I am in favor of banning each and every gun. I don't care about definitions or anything. Anything that we can do to restrict gun ownership is a good thing.

Then we can move on to opiates, the other repub/corporate sponsored disaster in our country.

Will never happen. We are closer to a third party taking power than banning all guns.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Meh, there's a lot of crocodile tears being shed around here lately. You think deep down some of these people aren't exactly upset that a bunch of young red-staters got whacked?

I'm sure they're as legitimately upset as people generally get when they see some tragic happening in the world pop up on their newsfeed. I agree though, the intensity of their complaints on the issue has far less to do with their feelings about the victims than it does with their feelings about the weapons used. If some terrorist had killed a similar number of children with a fuel bomb these same people would be on here saying "let's not jump to conclusions."

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Sorry, what advanced degrees do you have?

You and I are on the same side of this issue, but please, a person's credentials are irrelevant to the merits of their argument. If they're being un-factual or illogical point it out. Don't ask for resumes.

[Endus]

About what? Guns? You mean my military training in weapon systems, growing up around firearms, and being an NRA firearm instructor? Yeah, I guess I don't know about guns. Lol. Also, I'll see your Master's and raise you a doctorate. Sup?

And I've got thirteen Imperial Galactic Professorships, while we're all talking about stuff nobody can verify.

Though the fact that you have no comprehension of what a tertiary source is makes it pretty clear you're lying. Either lying about wikipedia's usefulness, or lying about having any post-secondary training whatsoever, let alone a doctorate. That's right up there with "what is plagiarism" and "how do you write an essay" levels of basic academic practice.

[Endus]

Considering neither of us can prove these things, and as usual you're taking things out of context to make your argument, I guess you can just run along now. Ta-ta.

Taking what out of context?

You mocked someone for citing Wikipedia, because it wouldn't be cited in academic circles, as if it were disreputable.

In fact, it's a highly credible tertiary source, and the only reason tertiary sources are avoided in academic writing is because they don't get into enough detail, unlike primary and secondary sources.

I'm not taking anything out of context. You said something ridiculous, and which anyone who's completed any kind of entry-level degree at university would understand was wrong.

[chazus]

Wait, so you genuinely believe AR-15s are remarkable when it comes to kinetic energy? And you think I'm flat out wrong?.

While everything else he stated was sort of rubbish, the ammo that an AR-15 (or most AR-15 style, because most semi-auto rifles aren't AR-15s), is 2-3 times more energy than 9mm, .380, or .45.

.223 ranges from 1500-1800J (Kinetic Energy), while the others range from 300J at the low end to 800J at the highest.

Now, that's simply ballistic specs. When you take into things like shape, velocity, air, impact point, surface, etc etc etc... That changes. But if it's just 'energy' we're talking about, yeah... They have a lot more.

EDIT: The only real exception would be the .50 AE, which has a ridiculous 2000J punch in a handgun.

[Shaetha]

So, I'm not remotely qualified to get into the majority of nitty gritty details here.

But I see a ton of people posting about guns, spewing blatant false information (usually from ignorance rather than deliberately), on both sides.

It is time we, as a discussion-oriented community, get back to the actual facts of the debate.

TYPES OF GUNS

HANDGUN - A weapon that fits in a single hand. Says absolutely nothing about the size of the round, the method of chambering a round, or the method of reloading. Fires bullets, which are comprised of a slug (the metal part that is fired from the gun), powder, and wadding, encased in a metal enclosure.
RIFLE - A longer weapon that generally requires two hands to shoot accurately. Accurate to much longer distances than a handgun in almost all circumstances. See above notes about round size/chambering/reloading. Fires bullets.
SHOTGUN - A longer weapon that fires shells, rather than bullets. Shotgun shells are a plastic enclosure around the projectile, powder, and wadding. Shotguns can have rifled barrels (a spiral groove on the inside of the barrel intended to increase accuracy) or smoothbore (no rifling, lower accuracy). Shotguns can fire birdshot (high gauge pellets intended for birds and other very small game), buckshot (large gauge pellets intended for deer or other small/medium game) or slugs (solid projectiles very similar to the rounds fired from a rifle, intended for deer or other large/medium game).
CARBINE - A smaller class of rifle. More effective than a typical rifle in close quarters or high-mobility situations. Can be used effectively one handed with strength and training.
REVOLVER - A type of handgun that uses a revolving "magazine".
ASSAULT RIFLE - Generally a military weapon with user-selectable options for fire, typically semiautomatic, 3-round burst, or fully automatic.
HUNTING RIFLE - A meaningless, loaded term used in the gun control debate, typically by gun rights proponents, that has no real relationship to any particular class of weapon. Sometimes it means bolt-action long rifles. Sometimes it means a shotgun with a camouflage pattern. Sometimes it means something else entirely.
ASSAULT WEAPON - A meaningless, loaded term used in the gun control debate that has no real relationship to any particular class of weapon. Sometimes it means semi-automatic weapons with a vertical underbarrel grip. Sometimes it means Assault Rifle, as above. Sometimes it means something else entirely.

METHODS OF CHAMBERING A ROUND

BREAK-ACTION - the barrel and chamber are separated, usually on a hinge right above the trigger housing. A single round is inserted directly into the end of the barrel. Sometimes there are double-barreled break-action guns, usually shotguns, though double-barreled handguns are not unheard of.
BOLT-ACTION - a large bolt on the side of the chamber is rotated and pulled towards the stock, revealing an empty chamber, to which a round is then inserted. This can be manual insertion or magazine-fed.
PUMP-ACTION - the underbarrel grip is on a slide, which is manually "pumped" towards the stock, feeding the next round from the underbarrel magazine. Exclusively used in long guns, most commonly used in shotguns.
LEVER-ACTION - similar to pump-action, but you swing a lever down and away from the stock, rather than towards the stock.
SEMI-AUTOMATIC - When fired, the slide moves backwards in the gun past the chamber, revealing an opening in the bottom of the chamber. The magazine then pushes a round up into the chamber, with a spring. The trigger must be pulled once per round fired.
FULLY-AUTOMATIC - When fired, the slide moves backwards and loads the next round as in semi-automatics, but you can hold down the trigger to continue firing.

If you see these terms used to mean anything other than what you see here, you can safely assume that either the poster has no idea what they are talking about, or they are being deliberately dishonest.

"We should ban assault weapons." - The poster is uninformed.
"We should ban semi-automatic rifles with a vertical underbarrel grip." - The poster said what the uninformed poster above probably meant.
"There is no point in banning the AR-15 when hunting rifles are more powerful anyway." - This poster is being deliberately misleading.
"There is no point in banning small caliber semiautomatic carbines when high caliber bolt action rifles are more powerful anyway." - This poster said what the deliberately misleading poster above probably meant.

Anyone else have definitions they want to clarify in this discussion?

Amend bolt action to read, "bolt is manually cycled using a handle attached to the bolt itself." Almost all repeating firearms have bolts. Your definition of bolt action seems to imply only Bolt-Actions do.

I would also split into non-repeating, defined as a firearm which muse be manually loaded after every shot, which would contain break action, manual actions without a magazine, and the next suggestion, and repeating, defined as a firearm which has some kind of automatic feeding mechanism, usually a magazine, which contains everything else.

Muzzle Loaded - The usual contents of a cartridge, that being powder, wadding, and bullet, are loaded through the muzzle and fired using a separate firing mechanism on the rear of the firearm. There are multiple types of firing mechanism, most common being percussion cap, similar to the primer used in modern cartridges, but there are also Matchlocks, which use a lit wick to light a small amount of powder used as a primer charge, and flint locks and wheel locks, which use friction to create a spark to light a similar powder charge. This is technology that predates current technology and is only used by collectors and sport hunters because most areas recognize a season where you can only legally use primitive, or muzzle loading rifles.

Basic Terms(probably doesn't need to be added, but might be good because people confuse them):

Magazine - The part of a firearm that holds ammunition ready to be loaded into the chamber.
Clip - A tool used to load ammunition into a magazine. The clip may be inserted entirely into a magazine, called an En Bloc or Mannlicher clip, or removed after being used to load ammunition into a magazine, called a stripper, or charging clip.

Parts of a cartridge, or "round of ammunition"

Case - usually a piece of brass press-formed into the required shape.
Primer - A small explosive charge used to ignite the primary charge.
Powder charge - The primary explosive charge. This is the part that provides the kinetic energy used to fire the bullet.
Bullet - The projectile fired.

Additional possible parts of a cartridge

Sabot - used to stabilize a bullet that is being fired from a bore that is larger than the diameter of the bullet.
Wadding - usually only seen in shotgun type shells, used to contain the shot of a multi projectile cartridge to ensure it properly exits the barrel of the firearm.

Common Bullet Types:

Full Metal Jacket(FMJ) - The most basic type of bullet. Generally lead wrapped with copper. Poor at imparting energy to a target and will go through walls and cars very easily. Legally, the military has to use this type of round due to international agreements as other types of rounds are seen as too harmful to flesh for military use.
Jacketed Hollow Point(JHP) - A bullet with a hollow center designed to break apart when striking a target. Typically used in home defense to prevent collateral damage. Extremely dangerous against unarmored targets.
Boat-Tail - A shaping of the rear end of a bullet used to provide more accuracy in smaller bullets. Can be part of almost any other kind of bullet. Usually only seen in rounds specifically designed for extreme accuracy.

Feel free to omit any or all of this if you'd like. These are just a few things that I hear a lot of people make mistakes about. Except boat tails, I just added that because I felt like I needed more than two under that heading, and nothing else really jumped out at me, so I just put something that I didn't have to look up.

[Sormine]

"We should ban assault weapons." - The poster is uninformed.

Would love to hear OP's explanation on how this is a misinformed statement.

[Shaetha]

Would love to hear OP's explanation on how this is a misinformed statement.

They stated in their post it is because "Assault weapons" does not functionally mean anything as it pertains to effectiveness of a firearm. Most people that I've seen use that term generally only use it to describe firearms that "look scary" rather than things that actually reference performance.