A new way to fix ilvl and raiding

[Visor]

I suppose author simply have bad gear and don't like when he cannot get a spot in "the train" of boosters. He wants nice exuse why he is not useless even with suck gear. But his "solution" actualy doesn't solve anything. It brings only more problems. Scaling is the worst solution of anything. Even in questing its VERY bad way to help ppl. Yes you can now finish quest lines in one region and get all of this exp. But at same time ur pvp opponents farm this quests too. And if in normal situation ur lvl difference like 0-3 levels max and you have a chance to beat each other. So now ur lvl difference is 10-20-40. And ur opponent oneshot u by accident. Scaling kills basic aspect of mmo-rpg. Leveling+gearing = more power and strength. What a point to waste time for gearing if its mean actually nothing? Its like in USSR at last days: you can work hardly and get 1000$ for example or do nothing and get 100$. But in any case you can buy production only for 80$ per month. Because just no more product in the malls and shops (plus some ticket restriction. welcome to socializm). Sounds like total idiotism. And it is. What a point to waste ur time if you get same profit as someone who do nothing? Ofc lazy ppl who do nothing accept this situation gladly. But I suppose you understand this is very bad position for a country in long perspective. Same with the game. Ppl become boring very soon and will stop to buy a subscription.

[Deleted]

This is so wrong on so many levels, that would defeat the purpose of upcoming raids, if the old ones start to scale aswell...

[kamuimac]

The Raid scales with ilvl. For an example:
EN Normal starts out with 840 ilvl baseline. Say the raid group's average ilvl is around 870. The difficulty will increase similar to Mythic + Dungeons by increasing HP, adding different mechanics and perhaps things that change weekly and the value of rewards can go up as well. Instead of 840 rewards the rewards for the 870 group are 890 base and can also titanforge up to 25 ilvls max (915). This way you can only not only choose what raid you wish to do but don't have to worry about outgearing the difficulty or being bored of farming the same raid because you have even more variety. This will get rid of the worries of forming a normal, heroic and mythic raid group that may fall apart this also makes gearing alts unpunishing, lastly you don't have to worry about carrying anyone inexperienced or having a tryhard elitist in your group either.

it would end the same a pvp - in ton of people bitching because without overgearing stuff by 50 itlv they cant do shit easily same like with pvp templates they cant obliterate people in greens with full pvp gear anymore so they claim that "pvp is dead" :0

people dont want chalenge - they just want a feeling that they can exclude others from content they do.

[Battlebeard]

This is the best thread I seen in a long time.

I agree with OP 100%.

I always asked for non-geared raid mode, where ilvl, gear etc becomes obsolete and only player performance would matter. Make us all equal gearwise, meaning every Hunter has the exact same conditions.

I think Challenge Modes, both in MoP and WoD was the Absolute best thing they EVER added into the game, as it only required like Heroic dungeon ilvl gear to do, as it scaled down to a set ilvl if you had higher. Gearwise, people who had Heroic dungeon gear or Mythic SoO gear (MoP) or Mythci HFC gear (WoD) were equal gearwise. Sure you could optimize a little with sockets and trinkets, but overall, gear did not matter. You could do Gold with ANY gear (above the scaled gear, gear didn't scale up).

We really, really, really need more content like this. I am 100% for a game with no gear at all, and scaling raids is a very good start!

[Ophenia]

We really, really, really need more content like this. I am 100% for a game with no gear at all, and scaling raids is a very good start!

A game where you clear stuff once and never set foot in ever again, seems appealing indeed.

I wonder why Blizzard doesn't implement this as the final content.....

[Battlebeard]

A game where you clear stuff once and never set foot in ever again, seems appealing indeed.

I wonder why Blizzard doesn't implement this as the final content.....

With that attitude you can make everything sound bad...

I suppose I'm just naive to think people play the game cause it's fun. Guess those days are over. Your comment kinda proved Legion is the "chore-expansion" where fun is gone.

So, I guess, to compromise, at least Blizzard could give us a Scaled Mode. Like scaled normal where gear is set automatically to a certain ilvl, with normal mode difficulty bosses, up to a scaled Mythic mode, where gear is set to a certain ilvl with mythic mechanics etc. No ilvl would be required to try out scaled mythic, and only your skill would be tested here.

[Deleted]

Just remove titanforge/warforge/etc from the items. Add a mage-tower like requirement to every raid, so if you can complete it, you can enter the raid.

[Ponky]

I don't think it would work very well, OP, because if the gear gets scaled to your avg ilvl (e.g. 890 loot if your group avg is 870) that doesn't solve any problems at all if not makes it worse. Then all the groups that would want to get e.g. 970 ilvl gear would only invite 950+ ilvl players and everyone below would be completely excluded even if they have Cutting Edge achievement, because their low ilvl would mess up the loot. You either scale down the ilvl to the equal level but don't scale the loot (then it would be only people joining who want to be there/still have upgrades) or you don't change anything.

[Ophenia]

With that attitude you can make everything sound bad...

I suppose I'm just naive to think people play the game cause it's fun. Guess those days are over. Your comment kinda proved Legion is the "chore-expansion" where fun is gone.

So, I guess, to compromise, at least Blizzard could give us a Scaled Mode. Like scaled normal where gear is set automatically to a certain ilvl, with normal mode difficulty bosses, up to a scaled Mythic mode, where gear is set to a certain ilvl with mythic mechanics etc. No ilvl would be required to try out scaled mythic, and only your skill would be tested here.

May you accept it or not, most of MMORPG are based on making your character progress, in terms of stuff, skills, talents, size, color or whatever.

That was the biggest flaw of previous challenge modes, nobody likes to progress in terms of power to be nerfed for whatever content. If everything scales with you (or vice-versa), then you're perpetually at the same "power level", and if you never progress, you'd better completely stop.

All bullshit normalizing stuff like MoP Challenges, Timewalking (with set statistics, not even taking yours), current PvP is not interesting at all.

Plus, that's a nightmare in terms of development. Having an infinite number of raids to balance ? Yeah, sure. Current Flexible raids are not balanced (do you even wonder why 2/3/9, 2/4/14 and 2/5/19(?) are the only setups you see in PUGs ? Because they're the easiest).

[tikcol]

My solution to this problem is extremely elegant in comparison.

We should remove all dificulties besides LFR. By making LFR the only dificulty we would erase a lot of problems that come with organized raiding.

[JackWest]

This is the best thread I seen in a long time.

I agree with OP 100%.

I always asked for non-geared raid mode, where ilvl, gear etc becomes obsolete and only player performance would matter. Make us all equal gearwise, meaning every Hunter has the exact same conditions.

I think Challenge Modes, both in MoP and WoD was the Absolute best thing they EVER added into the game, as it only required like Heroic dungeon ilvl gear to do, as it scaled down to a set ilvl if you had higher. Gearwise, people who had Heroic dungeon gear or Mythic SoO gear (MoP) or Mythci HFC gear (WoD) were equal gearwise. Sure you could optimize a little with sockets and trinkets, but overall, gear did not matter. You could do Gold with ANY gear (above the scaled gear, gear didn't scale up).

We really, really, really need more content like this. I am 100% for a game with no gear at all, and scaling raids is a very good start!

Of course you agree. I mean, just 2-3 weeks ago you were throwing a tantrum why random people wont carry your undergeared alts, that you admit dont have time to play peroperly. Also, scaling would still make your lazy ass pull half the dps they are supposed to, which would still result in you being booted from the grps

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A game where you clear stuff once and never set foot in ever again, seems appealing indeed.

I wonder why Blizzard doesn't implement this as the final content.....

Thats how Elder Scrolls Online is. Sole reason why after 2-3 months i felt like i cant progress my charater further and make it more powerful, so i quit

[Battlebeard]

May you accept it or not, most of MMORPG are based on making your character progress, in terms of stuff, skills, talents, size, color or whatever.

That was the biggest flaw of previous challenge modes, nobody likes to progress in terms of power to be nerfed for whatever content. If everything scales with you (or vice-versa), then you're perpetually at the same "power level", and if you never progress, you'd better completely stop.

All bullshit normalizing stuff like MoP Challenges, Timewalking (with set statistics, not even taking yours), current PvP is not interesting at all.

Plus, that's a nightmare in terms of development. Having an infinite number of raids to balance ? Yeah, sure. Current Flexible raids are not balanced (do you even wonder why 2/3/9, 2/4/14 and 2/5/19(?) are the only setups you see in PUGs ? Because they're the easiest).

I don't think it would be very hard to balance the raids. Right now, boss hp/dmg is adjusted by the number of people, but doesn't take account in their gear. The boss will remain just as easy or hard whether the raids avarage ilvl is 900 or 970. By scaling, if anything, it would make the balancing easier and more fair. What challenge is a boss with 970 if it was originally intended for 900. If gear scale to lets say 950 for a heroic boss, you would still see a challenge after you outgear it. Yes it would make gear useless in a way, but I think it's a good thing. Gearing is an outdated concept, EVEN for mmorpgs.

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Of course you agree. I mean, just 2-3 weeks ago you were throwing a tantrum why random people wont carry your undergeared alts, that you admit dont have time to play peroperly. Also, scaling would still make your lazy ass pull half the dps they are supposed to, which would still result in you being booted from the grps

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Thats how Elder Scrolls Online is. Sole reason why after 2-3 months i felt like i cant progress my charater further and make it more powerful, so i quit

No, my entire point, in ALL my "tantrums" is that I don't lack the skill, only the gear for my alts etc. With scaled raids, all my problems would be solved, and people would see that I can perform well, as long as I am given the gear.

[JackWest]

I don't think it would be very hard to balance the raids. Right now, boss hp/dmg is adjusted by the number of people, but doesn't take account in their gear. The boss will remain just as easy or hard whether the raids avarage ilvl is 900 or 970. By scaling, if anything, it would make the balancing easier and more fair. What challenge is a boss with 970 if it was originally intended for 900. If gear scale to lets say 950 for a heroic boss, you would still see a challenge after you outgear it. Yes it would make gear useless in a way, but I think it's a good thing. Gearing is an outdated concept, EVEN for mmorpgs.

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No, my entire point, in ALL my "tantrums" is that I don't lack the skill, only the gear for my alts etc. With scaled raids, all my problems would be solved, and people would see that I can perform well, as long as I am given the gear.

You are given the gear on your main. You still perform shit based on the logs. Also, you said yourself you are too lazy to perform good. That has absolutelly nothing to do with gear

Edit: green parses on the best fights for assa rogue, with bis leggos and 1000 pantheon trinket are the evidence your issue has nothing to do with gear

[Ophenia]

I don't think it would be very hard to balance the raids. Right now, boss hp/dmg is adjusted by the number of people, but doesn't take account in their gear. The boss will remain just as easy or hard whether the raids avarage ilvl is 900 or 970. By scaling, if anything, it would make the balancing easier and more fair. What challenge is a boss with 970 if it was originally intended for 900. If gear scale to lets say 950 for a heroic boss, you would still see a challenge after you outgear it. Yes it would make gear useless in a way, but I think it's a good thing. Gearing is an outdated concept, EVEN for mmorpgs.

And how do you take into account crappy 970 gear with imba 970 gear ?
Enchants ? Gems ?
Food ? Flask ? Pot ?
Latency ? FPS ?
Reaction time ? Age of the players ? Blood pressure ?

You don't, because you can't possibly expect Blizzard's dev to balance the raids for every single spec, every single item, every single item level.

Edit : Stop trying to "balance" everything. WoW doesn't need perfect balance everywhere. MM+ concept is fine because it is not balanced. You suck at doing a +20 key ? Just do a +18.

You suck at Mythic raiding ? Stick with Heroic, OR get better gear/skill/talents to be able to not be useless in Mythic raids.

I think you are the one not wanting challenge. Not me.

[Battlebeard]

You are given the gear on your main. You still perform shit based on the logs. Also, you said yourself you are too lazy to perform good. That has absolutelly nothing to do with gear

You can't judge the "tabbed out sometimes to play hearthstone" attempts as representative of what I CAN do. Like I said, I'm cursed and my most recent run, where I estimate I'd be in the 90th+ percentile was not logged. I consider learning how to log just go update that damn log site, even though I hate the idea of logs to begin with.

And I did perform quite well in other scaled envoirments. For a long time I was the highest Rogue of my realm (High Population back in WoD) on the proving grounds, I did CM gold on multiple characters and even organized some boost runs to make some gold. Point is, scaled things are great, it really allows you to show what you can do if you are not so ilvl depending.

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And how do you take into account crappy 970 gear with imba 970 gear ?
Enchants ? Gems ?
Food ? Flask ? Pot ?
Latency ? FPS ?
Reaction time ? Age of the players ? Blood pressure ?

You don't, because you can't possibly expect Blizzard's dev to balance the raids for every single spec, every single item, every single item level.

I never claimed it would be a flawless system, becuase nothing is. It's just a step in the direction of making us more equal by scaling gear and ilvl.

[Tradu]

You can't judge the "tabbed out sometimes to play hearthstone" attempts as representative of what I CAN do. Like I said, I'm cursed and my most recent run, where I estimate I'd be in the 90th+ percentile was not logged. I consider learning how to log just go update that damn log site, even though I hate the idea of logs to begin with.

And I did perform quite well in other scaled envoirments. For a long time I was the highest Rogue of my realm (High Population back in WoD) on the proving grounds, I did CM gold on multiple characters and even organized some boost runs to make some gold. Point is, scaled things are great, it really allows you to show what you can do if you are not so ilvl depending.

Yes, we can. That is all we have to go on, because you're too lazy to log your "90th percentile" runs. You are exactly what the logs show us until proven otherwise.

[Deleted]

Just remove titanforge/warforge/etc from the items. Add a mage-tower like requirement to every raid, so if you can complete it, you can enter the raid.

A lot of people would have had to raid without tanks for a while then. /s

[Okatan]

You can't judge the "tabbed out sometimes to play hearthstone" attempts as representative of what I CAN do. Like I said, I'm cursed and my most recent run, where I estimate I'd be in the 90th+ percentile was not logged. I consider learning how to log just go update that damn log site, even though I hate the idea of logs to begin with.

And I did perform quite well in other scaled envoirments. For a long time I was the highest Rogue of my realm (High Population back in WoD) on the proving grounds, I did CM gold on multiple characters and even organized some boost runs to make some gold. Point is, scaled things are great, it really allows you to show what you can do if you are not so ilvl depending.

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I never claimed it would be a flawless system, becuase nothing is. It's just a step in the direction of making us more equal by scaling gear and ilvl.

You know, there is an option to show your ranking by the item level and not for all item levels. If your item level ranking is below your general ranking, you lack skill.

So there is only one solution:

[Battlebeard]

Yes, we can. That is all we have to go on, because you're too lazy to log your "90th percentile" runs. You are exactly what the logs show us until proven otherwise.

Ok, I'm the most non-technical guy there is, but I will try to learn logs so I can log myself and get rid of all this flaming going on.

[ReVnX]

No, ilevel is a huge solution in raiding. The problem is when systems like titanforging break the natural ilevel progression.

This +1000000