Is this guild's leadership bad, or am I wrong in this?

[Tradu]

No, what they are saying is that if you quit in any of the 4 weeks after killing Argus, you are kicked from the guild, essentially forcing us to get the mount for them. After that, they won't enforce any rules, which to me, and many others in this thread, sounds like they don't really care about the raiders, but only for them...

Why would you not get kicked(or at least taken off the raiding roster) if you quit, regardless of when?

[wombats23]

As long as your GM, RL and officers actually put in the work that their respective titles call for, I don't see any issue with this. The "stay subbed for 4 weeks" business sounds pretty reasonable since it's understandably common for people to get their CE/mount and unsub until the next expansion. The people in this thread must have raided in really shitty guilds because looking back at my raiding career, I'd be perfectly fine with most of my past RLs and officers getting mounts over me. Unless there's been a previous good reason for you to believe that the officers/RL/GM are all intending to quit after getting their mounts, I feel like OP is just reading a bit too much into what the officers said.

What's the point of getting the mount as officer and quitting anyway? You're already certainly going to play again next expansion (why in the world would you require raiding for 4 more weeks just to get the mount and then never play again?), so why not just keep raiding until BFA? Or if you're gonna put a pause on raiding until BFA, why not end on happy terms so that way the guild can pick up where it left off in BFA without having to go through the hell that is known as the shitty WoW recruitment forums? It's not like they can just as a 4 man group just join another guild. 11/11m guilds don't need to recruit 4 man packages and no good guild is willing to let themselves be open to the potential of being held hostage by a random 4 man group they recruit.

If the mount is all you care about, then just join a 11/11m guild. Chances are your current guild will take a month to get Argus down anyway based on logs of recent kills. Might as well just join another guild that you find not shady to try your luck with the mount there, chances are they're recruiting to replace the people that have quit after getting their CE anyway. If you're in it for the challenge of progression, just PM 10/11m guilds and show them your logs proving that you're worthy of their time. A good recruitment officer almost never says no to a worthwhile applicant.

[Airlick]

Sounds like a scummy guild leadership.

The guild I've been in the longest just had everyone roll for cosmetic items. The only exception was the one fanatic mount collector that had basically every mount that was still available at the time he started, we all always agreed to give the first one to him. Sometimes we gave mounts to people who raided for a long time and never managed to get one, but contributed so much over time that they just deserved it. And those usually weren't officers, much less the GM. It was as fair as it gets.

[kamuimac]

Hello all,

I'd like to hear the opinion of MMO-Champion posters about something that's been troubling me lately. The reason I decided to create a thread here is because many good players lurk around these parts and have been without a doubt in similar situations to mine.

Our guild recently killed Aggramar Mythic. The guild structure consists of a GM, a raid leader, 2 officers, core raiders and raider ranks (never mind the raid trials for this). These are all ranked in the order listed.

Our guild started discussing tonight what will happen after our first Argus kill, regarding the mount drop. Initially, way before we even killed Aggramar, they told us that they would distribute the mount in the following way: Each rank would get to roll for it. So initially, the GM would get it, then the Raid leader, following that, the 4 officers would roll till they all get the mount. Afterwards, the core raiders, and last but not least, the raiders.

This all sounded fair, as everyone would get the chance to roll for it. I am pretty new to this guild (been raiding with them since Imonar, and have been on every one of their progress kills, including Aggramar). I've recently joined the 'Raider' rank and I became a mainstay in their roster ever since joining their guild due to low amount of mistakes, high attendance and good dps/doing mechanics.

However, after tonight's kill of Aggramar Mythic, they announced that they'd require the group to stay subbed for a minimum of 4 weeks mandatory to assist with Argus re-kills, so that mounts will be obtained for quite a few people. If we fail to comply with that, we will be kicked from the guild. These 'four' weeks, conviniently fall into the GM, raid leader, and officer body only to get the mount as you might have realised this by now, by combining this piece of information with the one about how we will roll for the mount,
which I mentioned earlier.

I understand that I can't expect my guild to stay for 18-20 weeks and farm Argus, after obtaining cutting edge, should they feel burnt out on WoW, but I find it unacceptable that they want to force us to raid 4 weeks exactly at the very least, in order for them to get the mounts and don't really care about if anyone else will get the mount afterwards.

I'd understand if they would let us all to roll fairly for it these 4 weeks, as then everyone who worked so hard for the Argus kill, will have a chance at what I think is the ultimate reward.

Have you been in similar situations? Do you think the guild's leading body is in the right, or in the wrong for this decision? How would you tackle this problem?

typical corrupted guild leadership of mythic guild.

if i were you i would leave imidiately as clearly they are already planing to give up farming at some point.

i understand the "priority on rolls" for all people who were on roster since start of tier before people who joined later on but in this case ? its clearly the case of gm and his buttbudies gettting them mounts and then announcing break till BfA

luckily i was never in such situation but i was very unlucky on mount rolls :P but they were fair rolls so cant complain

[Deleted]

You should realise that farming a mount for every raider in the group takes literally half a year.

I remember farming Archimonde for 24 rekills, the first mount was given to our officer and then every week we all rolled equally (the GM/raid leader got his mount in about 14 weeks, I, as a new raider got it in about 20 weeks).
I loved Archimonde fight, but this was the most tedious and boring thing you can ever do in WoW. I am glad I waited these long weeks for my share of the mount, as the Fel Anihilator is my favourite mount ever, but I would never do this again for any other mount, ever.


Also, having a core raiders and separate raiders rank is just elitist and favourable. All your raiders, apart from trials, should be on an equal ground. No matter if one is in the guild for 5 years and one just joined the team, they all kill the boss in the way, so they all should be equal and I don't like guilds that separate into thse two categories.

[Relapses]

I mean that is an understandable way to look at it if you were never someone in charge of running a guild. The amount of work that goes into I think you at least deserve the first mounts. (currently I'm a just a raider in a guild and I don't log in to the game other than main raid days and sales so I'm not just a baised raidleader)

If you run out of weeks of farming before BFA and everyone doesn't get their mount and the officers get one first, yeah that is just unfortunate but understandable. Officers getting their mounts and then just fucking off until BFA is a really dick move. I would bring it up to the guild and talk it out just to make sure you don't get fucked over.

Personally, I'm perfectly fine with the sentiment of management getting mounts first... what seems fishy here is the management literally rubbing it in the face of the raiders. That really rubs me the wrong way.

[Dracodraco]

As the GM of a guild in the top 100 -
Of course people that put in more effort gets rewarded for it. There's literally no other way to show appreciation for someone sitting up 2 extra hours each night going through logs, or spending hours outside of raid time doing recruitment or figuring out timings and tactics for an upcomming boss fight than the mounts. Gear is a tool for progression, so they sure as fuck aren't going to be prioritised there over a bigger upgrade that might help kill a boss quicker. Mounts has zero impact on your raid performance, so they're the perfect tool to reward extra work.

Everyone saying it's "selfish" of the officer team to do it this way, I hope to god you mean the part where they're trying to ensure that they atleast get the mounts with the "mandatory"-thing, and not just the fact that they're prioritising the mount for the high ranking people in the guild which, logic dictating, is putting in all the extra effort to actually keep the guild running. If both of you did 300 pulls on argus, but one also did an extra 6 hrs a week recruiting to make sure the guild didn't fall apart while you just logged off and played PUBG or LoL or some other shit till the next raid night, then no; You didn't put in the same amount of work getting the boss down. Nobody "wants" to be an officer, or do recruitment, or to spend hours parsing through logs every night. We do it because somebody *has* to, and if you feel it's unfair that this gets a higher prio, I suggest you start volunteering your own time to reap the same benefit, and not just do the "bare minimum" of "show up, do well on mechanics, and have decent output". That's what I expect from EVERYONE.


With all that being said, the "mandatory" period makes no sense. You're a guild with argus dead. Your goal should be to clear antorus each week for mounts and then be done. Anyone that quits due to "burnout" should be immidiatelly replaced, wether they stay for 4 weeks or not. There's no space to have 10 people sat waiting for the next expansion while the other 17 wants to raid. That kills the guild.

[Zyky]

Hello all,

I'd like to hear the opinion of MMO-Champion posters about something that's been troubling me lately. The reason I decided to create a thread here is because many good players lurk around these parts and have been without a doubt in similar situations to mine.

Our guild recently killed Aggramar Mythic. The guild structure consists of a GM, a raid leader, 2 officers, core raiders and raider ranks (never mind the raid trials for this). These are all ranked in the order listed.

Our guild started discussing tonight what will happen after our first Argus kill, regarding the mount drop. Initially, way before we even killed Aggramar, they told us that they would distribute the mount in the following way: Each rank would get to roll for it. So initially, the GM would get it, then the Raid leader, following that, the 4 officers would roll till they all get the mount. Afterwards, the core raiders, and last but not least, the raiders.

This all sounded fair, as everyone would get the chance to roll for it. I am pretty new to this guild (been raiding with them since Imonar, and have been on every one of their progress kills, including Aggramar). I've recently joined the 'Raider' rank and I became a mainstay in their roster ever since joining their guild due to low amount of mistakes, high attendance and good dps/doing mechanics.

However, after tonight's kill of Aggramar Mythic, they announced that they'd require the group to stay subbed for a minimum of 4 weeks mandatory to assist with Argus re-kills, so that mounts will be obtained for quite a few people. If we fail to comply with that, we will be kicked from the guild. These 'four' weeks, conviniently fall into the GM, raid leader, and officer body only to get the mount as you might have realised this by now, by combining this piece of information with the one about how we will roll for the mount,
which I mentioned earlier.

I understand that I can't expect my guild to stay for 18-20 weeks and farm Argus, after obtaining cutting edge, should they feel burnt out on WoW, but I find it unacceptable that they want to force us to raid 4 weeks exactly at the very least, in order for them to get the mounts and don't really care about if anyone else will get the mount afterwards.

I'd understand if they would let us all to roll fairly for it these 4 weeks, as then everyone who worked so hard for the Argus kill, will have a chance at what I think is the ultimate reward.

Have you been in similar situations? Do you think the guild's leading body is in the right, or in the wrong for this decision? How would you tackle this problem?

While I've always been against this kind of stuff, they certainly have the right to say this. They put in far more work than any raider does and if they want their reward to be getting the mount first, then that's their right as the leadership. It isn't about them saying "you need to stay for us" it's them saying "we deserve this out of you" from a bare minimum standpoint. And they certainly do deserve it, they never said they were going to quit after the fact, they never said they were going to disband after the 4 of them got it. And its true, from a leadership standpoint people quit at the end of an expansion after they get their mount, because they're selfish people who don't care about the rest of the raid, however ever since ICC, I've never seen it happen with leadership, I've only seen raiders leave or quit after getting their mount and I've raided every tier since Vanilla at a competitive level.

[Raelbo]

While it would be easy to hop on the popular bandwagon of shitting on the guild leadership here, I think most of you folks need to take a deep breath and calm down.

Obviously, if their intention is to get 4 kills, take the mount and then bugger off, then I would 100% agree that it's scummy guild leadership. However that is pure speculation at this stage.

The fact is that at some point the mount farm is probably going stop before all 20+ raiders get their mount. It's only fair that the people who are the most committed and put in the most work get first dibs on the mount, and these people are typically the guild/raid leaders. In other words, if only 4 people in your guild are going to get the mount, it's only fair that it is those 4.

As for "forcing" the raiders to stay long enough to ensure the guild leadership get their mounts, that is also perfectly fair. The fact is there are probably several raiders who will look at having to get 4 kills in before even getting a chance at the mount as not worth the effort. Effectively, a handful of these players can selfishly scupper everyone's chance at the mount. As I understand it, after the four additional kills, all the guild leadership plus 1 lucky raider will have their mounts, which means that the chance of a random core raider winning the mount is actually pretty decent. This will incentivize those raiders to stick with it a few more weeks.

So all in all, their rules are actually "fair", assuming that the RL/GL and 2 officers aren't just going to bail after the 4 weeks. That being said they would have been wise to have slightly different rules, because their rules certainly seem to ellicited a rather panicked response.

Firstly they should have mandated 6 additional kills (or kick). That way it would demonstrate that other raiders would at least have a shot at the mount. Secondly they should have added a clause to compel anyone who does win the mount to avail themselves for at least 6 more kills after. If you can count on your leaders sticking around, then that would result in a likely period of 10+ weeks at going for the mount. Even if you lose a few raiders, you'll probably still be able to farm with less than 20 by that stage, and also those who are still around, having now a much better chance at actually winning soon, will be more inclined to stick around.

TBH, it's a tricky one for the leaders to get right. Unfortunately for them, their attempts at ensuring a just outcome has seemingly rubbed their more immature players up the wrong way and might well result in the whole idea backfiring. I suggest remaining calm, keep things in perspective. You're a new raider in the group. For all you know the core raiders have no intention of leaving any time soon and will be happy to help you to get your mount. But if you react by rage-quitting you're definitely going to lose out.

[Meiffert]

I don't think I quite understand.

However, after tonight's kill of Aggramar Mythic, they announced that they'd require the group to stay subbed for a minimum of 4 weeks mandatory to assist with Argus re-kills, so that mounts will be obtained for quite a few people.

What does that even mean? How would you possibly enforce it? There is no way to force someone to play with you if they decided to leave or quit.

If we fail to comply with that, we will be kicked from the guild.

As opposed to what?
They would keep a spot for raiders who left or quit? I don't get it.


The only version that makes sense to me is where the leadership wants to know if some of you want to unsub until BfA after the tier is over. In such an eventuality you are asked to either stay to help with the first 4 re-kills (after which presumably your group will have enough experience to down the boss with slightly different setup) or maybe step down now instead so that other raiders can be brought to the progression.

Do you read the situation as your officers planning to kill it 4 times to get mounts for themselves and then stop? In other words your guild is quitting in a month and your biggest concern is whether or not you get to roll for a mount?

[peki]

ITT: no one who has killed argus

as someone said earlier, its their guild? they can do as they wish. If they've put in all the work required to run a guild, fuck it, let them have it first, your paranoia about them not raiding after they get 4 is the real issue here.

[Mendzia]

I think that the only fair mount distribution in guild is raid roll for all raider ranks and higher.
Personally i do not care much about the mounts (especially this ugly and shitty one from Argus).

However, after tonight's kill of Aggramar Mythic, they announced that they'd require the group to stay subbed for a minimum of 4 weeks mandatory to assist with Argus re-kills, so that mounts will be obtained for quite a few people. If we fail to comply with that, we will be kicked from the guild. These 'four' weeks, conviniently fall into the GM, raid leader, and officer body only to get the mount as you might have realised this by now, by combining this piece of information with the one about how we will roll for the mount,

That sounds like 'Me (GM) and officers will get our mounts and we do not think so that any other person will obtain it'.

[Deleted]

Always hated mount scumbaggery.

By all means hand out the first few mounts based on who put in the effort, but after that I think they should all be rolled between the people who were in on the kill and progression, the boss wouldn't be dead without them. You often have a few standout players like a raid leader or someone who devoted extra time to going over logs or was doing a pivotal job on the fight, but that's usually a pretty short list.

[peki]

you're all so fucking cynical, you have no idea whats going through the leaderships minds, you all jump to the worst possible outcome

[Emerald Archer]

As the GM of a guild in the top 100 -
Of course people that put in more effort gets rewarded for it. There's literally no other way to show appreciation for someone sitting up 2 extra hours each night going through logs, or spending hours outside of raid time doing recruitment or figuring out timings and tactics for an upcomming boss fight than the mounts.

You're assuming officers do that stuff though, you're assuming from a good/fair guild perspective. That's not the experience most people get.

You have the RL, or 1 random, and rarely 1 other person who assists them, doing all the hard work. And then officers who are only officers because they were there a long time, they're friends with the GM, they're popular, they're a tank.

Nothing that makes you deserve getting the mount any sooner than others.

It makes sense from your perspective, but also from theirs.

[Lorgran]

Instead of saying "you need to be farming this for 4 weeks" they could rather just say "You need 4 weeks of attendance to be eligible to roll for the mount".

I don't think they're all gonna jump off after getting their mounts, and as they say; Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (or bad translation/language/rhetorical skills)

[Rotted]

My trial period was 3 weeks, due to coming from an ex-guild which didn't have good relations with my current guild, therefore they were abit hesitant to promote me. They've already discussed this with me. And recently means '2 weeks ago'. All in all, I've been in this guild for 5-6 weeks. I don't think their ranking system is bad, as raid trials should be tested thoroughly before becoming a part of the main raid group.

As far as I'd be concerned, 6 weeks of putting effort in says more than enough.

You're still getting screwed because they give more of a dam about giving themselves the mount than you guys.

Just remember if you and the rest of the raiders make up their team, you're there bread and butter so to speak. If this pisses off everyone else you should all go complain as a united front.

[Mlz]

snip

I think you're being too generous towards an average #300 guild leadership. I wholeheartedly agree that those who put in effort should be rewarded and in your examples I would be more than fine to have the officers definitely get their mounts and what not. But again, I think you think that a lot of officers are like yourself which is definitely not the case as you go lower in the world ranking ladder. Chances are that in such guilds, you get maybe one or two people who genuinely deserve their rank and praise and the rest are just a) best buddies with the GM; b) putting a feast down every 3rd try.

[ifrah]

I'd just move along, not because of the mount in particular, but it sounds that the leadership wouldn't be really my cup of tea anyway.

[Aggrophobic]

That sounds like a pretty horrible system.
Giving priority to players that have shown that they come to raids reliably is fine. Giving loot or even a mount to officers and guild leaders just becuase... reasons, though? I'd look for something else.

Even if you don't decide to leave here, a structure like this is doomed to fail and it's not at all likely that the guild will fall apart on its own, sooner rather than later.