C'thun: Dead or Alive?

[Deleted]

We are the old gods.....

[Qualia]

This interview had actually came out when MoP had just launched. But nothing in Chronicles supports this passing statement by Kosak.

sadly that is MOP before the chronicles.

It doesn't matter that that interview came out before Chronicle or nothing in Chronicle supports it, though. As long as Chronicle doesn't outright contradicts it (which Chronicle would then triumph due to new lore > old lore), it would remain canon. Just not being mentioned or supported by Chronicle doesn't make a piece of lore non-canon.

[FelPlague]

It doesn't matter that that interview came out before Chronicle or nothing in Chronicle supports it, though. As long as Chronicle doesn't outright contradicts it (which Chronicle would then triumph due to new lore > old lore), it would remain canon. Just not being mentioned or supported by Chronicle doesn't make a piece of lore non-canon.

except chronicles does outright contradicts it.
chronicles states there was only 4 and they only killed 1.
so "the titans killed alot" is false, as they stated in chronicles they only killed one before noticing how much damage it would do to the planet, imprisoning the rest.


Four Old Gods — Y'Shaarj, C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth — ruled the planet of Azeroth during its primordial age, forming what would become known as the Black Empire. When the Pantheon arrived, they sent their armies, the titan-forged, to shatter the Old Gods' citadels and crumble their empire. The first Old God, Y'Shaarj, proved much too strong for the titan-forged to defeat, however, which prompted the titan leader Aman'Thul to reach down his arm and tear Y'Shaarj apart.

In doing so, he had unintentionally created a giant gaping wound in the planet's crust from which the arcane lifeblood of the nascent titan was hemorrhaging. The titans thus realized that the Old Gods had embedded themselves too deep in the world's surface to be removed without destroying Azeroth itself. They instead decided to imprison the Old Gods deep below the surface of the world and contain their evil forever.

[Tabrotar]

I’m not sure where you get they are all dead out of that, just that N’zoth is the last one standing to consume Azeroth

All the Old Gods other than N´Zoth are dead it was stated multiple times by several Blue Posts and it was even stated several times at Blizzcon that "Yeah the old Gods are dead we killed them end of the Story" (maybe for now you never know with Blizz),

[MechaCThun]

C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and Y'Shaarj are most (unfortunately) definitely dead.

Only their physical bodies? Most definitely.

Their consciousnesses? Remains to be seen.

We've seen characters in the past "live on" through their "echoes" and such. Could it be possible the consciousnesses of these beings persist on without physically being alive?

Now I'm not talking about their souls, like a demon's soul still being alive after physically killed.

We encountered echoes of Yogg-Saron in Ulduar during the pre-Legion events. Y'Shaarj was whispering to us during the battle with Garrosh, and I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly on this but I think C'Thun was consciously active in the comics when Cho'gall was attempting to resurrect him.

Is it possible that because Old Gods are so immensely powerful that even if their physical bodies are killed, they still live through their remaining "echoes" or such? Maybe it's just a byproduct of being Void based?

[Mehrunes]

except chronicles does outright contradicts it.
chronicles states there was only 4 and they only killed 1.
so "the titans killed alot" is false, as they stated in chronicles they only killed one before noticing how much damage it would do to the planet, imprisoning the rest.

Except that quote doesn't specify it's talking about just Azeroth one bit, so no. They could have easily killed trillions of Old Gods on other worlds, which would be: 1. supported by this quote and 2. not contradicted by Chronicle whatsoever. And it would be what @Qualia was actually talking about, as per their post in which they actually quoted Kosak (it pays to actually read posts in full):

I can see why you thought so as there are only one confirmed kill on Azeroth (Y'Shaarj), but according to above, the Titans killed a lot in overall - presumably during the millenia between their departure from Azeroth and their death under Sargeras' hands, assuming that there isn't any unmentioned kill on Azeroth.

[Tabrotar]

except chronicles does outright contradicts it.
chronicles states there was only 4 and they only killed 1.
so "the titans killed alot" is false, as they stated in chronicles they only killed one before noticing how much damage it would do to the planet, imprisoning the rest.


Four Old Gods — Y'Shaarj, C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth — ruled the planet of Azeroth during its primordial age, forming what would become known as the Black Empire. When the Pantheon arrived, they sent their armies, the titan-forged, to shatter the Old Gods' citadels and crumble their empire. The first Old God, Y'Shaarj, proved much too strong for the titan-forged to defeat, however, which prompted the titan leader Aman'Thul to reach down his arm and tear Y'Shaarj apart.

In doing so, he had unintentionally created a giant gaping wound in the planet's crust from which the arcane lifeblood of the nascent titan was hemorrhaging. The titans thus realized that the Old Gods had embedded themselves too deep in the world's surface to be removed without destroying Azeroth itself. They instead decided to imprison the Old Gods deep below the surface of the world and contain their evil forever.

Only killed one while on /above Azeroth though.

They still could have encountered more old gods on other planets which didn´t contained a worldsoul so there they just eridicated them because it woudn´t have killed/hurt the sleeping Titan.

[Deleted]

If all old gods except N'zoth are dead, and we end up killing N'zoth this or in the next expansion, what does that say for Azeroth? I'm thinking of the conversation Brann had in Halls of Stone:

Abedneum yells: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
Kaddrak yells: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.

Has there been any new information about this since then?

[Stooned]

Yes, we killed Yogg-Saron in Ulduar. Blizzard said so, and even Yogg himself was salty about his death - "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for eternity", you don't have a corpse without dying first. Their sizes matter little if we destroyed their vitals. Real life human is also extremely large compared to brain-eating amoeba (which is smaller than a hair's width), yet we do have death to them here and there.

I think this is a big issue that Blizz has never really cleaned up though (at least to my knowledge, so I'd appreciate if you know / can source a converse to what I'm going to say) is that there is a difference between a corporeal and incorporeal death for an old god. We can, and in the case of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron have, kill their physical bodies. But have we killed their souls - the immortal part of their animus?

Given the presence we find in Ulduar still, I'd say no. But that doesn't mean we haven't. Their souls seem to persist, which also implies that there is a portent for revival in my view.

[FelPlague]

Only killed one while on /above Azeroth though.

They still could have encountered more old gods on other planets which didn´t contained a worldsoul so there they just eridicated them because it woudn´t have killed/hurt the sleeping Titan.

except they are using it to say there was more old gods on azeroth and even then.
they could have killed more on other planets, however with what happens on azeroth implies they dont, they simply would imprison them.
because they dont want to kill them knowing they could hurt the planet but are forced to then realize just how much it hurts the planet and decide not to, why would they "just find this out" if they have done it hundreds of times before? or why do it later after finding out it was a bad idea

[Deleted]

It would be immensely sad and unfortunate if Blizzard didn't take this oportunity to REVAMP AQ before BfA starts.

Make it a 1-3 boss raid, just like Ruby Sanctum, to shorten the bridge between Antorus and launch of BfA. It would be the BEST time to add something like that, and it would pay legacy to the awesomnes of AQ, the story of Old Gods and most importantly, a tribute to the zone of Silithus (RIP).

I am like 75% sure they will do this, and if they don't... that's a shame, that would definitely make my opinion on the whole end of Legion way worse than it already is.

Nobody from blizzard gives a banana about your opinion

[Nefarious Tea]

That is not dead which can eternal lie.

And with strange eons you will find that even death may die.

[Aquamonkey]

except they are using it to say there was more old gods on azeroth and even then.
they could have killed more on other planets, however with what happens on azeroth implies they dont, they simply would imprison them.
because they dont want to kill them knowing they could hurt the planet but are forced to then realize just how much it hurts the planet and decide not to, why would they "just find this out" if they have done it hundreds of times before? or why do it later after finding out it was a bad idea

Except for all the other planets re-originated at Algalon's behest. The only danger on Azeroth was because 1) the Old Gods had burrowed in so deep and 2) there was a world-soul.

[RangerDaz]

Dead but will probably get revived

Yes, and we do get hints about the silithid mutation after the sword's arrival.
It is certain that Silithus was chosen for a reason. This is a somewhat void theme expansion camuflaged with faction war.
There are very few zones extremely connected to the old Gods and there are almost a hundred zones in Azeroth. The fact that Silithus was chosen strongly suggests that CThun will have a role in the future somehow. After all, Old Gods can interfere with Azeroth even after their death (see Mists of Pandaria).

I place my bets that the last instance of the BFA expansion is the sword of Sargeras with Cthun and the silithid and the race to save Azeroth.

[Tabrotar]

except they are using it to say there was more old gods on azeroth and even then.
they could have killed more on other planets, however with what happens on azeroth implies they dont, they simply would imprison them.
because they dont want to kill them knowing they could hurt the planet but are forced to then realize just how much it hurts the planet and decide not to, why would they "just find this out" if they have done it hundreds of times before? or why do it later after finding out it was a bad idea

But they won´t have to imprisoned them because if those planets didn´t had world souls.

They did this on Azeroth only because it would have killed our sleeping titan aka no sleeping Titan no reason to imprison them just pluck them out and after that repair the planet.

- - - Updated - - -

If all old gods except N'zoth are dead, and we end up killing N'zoth this or in the next expansion, what does that say for Azeroth? I'm thinking of the conversation Brann had in Halls of Stone:



Has there been any new information about this since then?

Yeah we have killed the brains and because we are like antibodys it didn´t killed Azeroth.

[Qualia]

I think this is a big issue that Blizz has never really cleaned up though (at least to my knowledge, so I'd appreciate if you know / can source a converse to what I'm going to say) is that there is a difference between a corporeal and incorporeal death for an old god. We can, and in the case of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron have, kill their physical bodies. But have we killed their souls - the immortal part of their animus?

Given the presence we find in Ulduar still, I'd say no. But that doesn't mean we haven't. Their souls seem to persist, which also implies that there is a portent for revival in my view.

You are right that there definitely is a chance for revival. I completely agree with that. The thing is that death in WoW so far doesn't mean a complete and final end, with the dead characters being gone from the world forever. There are very few things that outright destroy the souls in WoW - I believe Sargeras' massive fel storm that he used to destroy the Pantheon was the only ability specifically described that can destroy both body and soul. Thus, souls of every dead people persist, and the more powerful beings can interact with normal world in some ways.

A few examples: Medivh was decapitated and burned inside out, died leaving only his skin left at the end of "The Last Guardian", yet his soul was still around and he could be resurrected by Aegwynn later just fine. MU Gul'dan's skull can still talk to its holder, asking question and answering them. Even Varian who exploded into tiny bits after being overloaded with Fel could still appear in front of Anduin in a vision. Uther's soul was still around even when he was slain by Arthas with Frostmourne years ago. Terenas' soul even resurrected the fallen champions when they fought against Arthas. All of those people are (or were, in case of Medivh) considered dead. There are a few more examples, but the point is that souls are very rarely being destroyed completely. So, if having the souls around or being capable of interacting with others means you aren't dead, then most dead characters in WoW aren't dead (with the exception of "immortal" demons who were killed inside the Twisting Nether).

All in all, if the question is whether the Old Gods are gone, or won't be play an active part in the story anymore, then the answer is no. In theory, they can always interact with us to some extents (i.e: spawning Sha or those Saronite Vapor clouds), or be revived and come back if there are enough power (hi there, Azerite). However, that doesn't mean that they aren't dead. They are as dead as most of other dead characters, just that death, in theory, isn't that final in WoW especially when we are talking about more powerful beings.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Dead, but the location of Sargeras' sword makes me believe we'll at least see a large quest chain and/or a 5-10 man dungeon for Ahn'Qiraj/C'thun.

[Deleted]

Nobody from blizzard gives a banana about your opinion

Well that was rude of you, I for one think C'Thun deserves a second chance.

[MechaCThun]

Well that was rude of you, I for one think C'Thun deserves a second chance.

C'Thun had his shine in vanilla WoW and in the comics. Yogg-Saron had his in WotLK and a good call back in the pre-Legion invasion events. Y'Shaarj indirectly had his shine throughout MoP.

It is time for the most cunning, patient, and infinitely more devious boyo to get his shine...

N'Zoth fhtagn!

[Qualia]

C'Thun had his shine in vanilla WoW and in the comics. Yogg-Saron had his in WotLK and a good call back in the pre-Legion invasion events. Y'Shaarj indirectly had his shine throughout MoP.

It is time for the most cunning, patient, and infinitely more devious boyo to get his shine...

N'Zoth fhtagn!

To be fair, C'Thun just happened to be the first one who were released from his bonds (blame Cho'Gall and his cultists) and our victory served as the warning for the rest of the Old Gods that we can defeat them. Had N'Zoth or Yogg were released as such, C'Thun would have been the cunning and patient one instead