Need a lift (worried about class design in BfA)

[McFuu]

What was the average gear like in Emerald Nightmare? Why expect different of Azurite 1.0?

[Mafic]

Mind fleshing that out? Unless you're responding to the wrong comment, you're not making sense. How about talking actual points instead of loose comparisons and generalizations?

No my point was very clear.

Battle for Abilities is pruning 3.0 and the Azurite system doesn't add anything of value to classes. I would argue it is going to be a big let down compared to even the artifact system.

- - - Updated - - -

No. You guys say this every expansion and every expansion the changes during Alpha / Beta to release are minimal. Class design at the moment is horrible and the Azerite system is the worst of it all on top of that.

There is nothing positive to say about BfA class design. It's pathetic, outdated and flat.

BFA looks like hot garbage.

How can anyone say with a straight face that BFA classes are fine as is with what they have done?

[SoulSoBreezy]

No my point was very clear.

Battle for Abilities is pruning 3.0 and the Azurite system doesn't add anything of value to classes. I would argue it is going to be a big let down compared to even the artifact system.

Okay, but your conclusions and arguments are based on a gross bias and lack of information. It's fascinating to watch!
Comparing Azerite gear to artifacts is quite literally comparing static progression to a customizable tree. Not sure how you're seeing it the way you are.

Considering relics, I fail to see the comparison there either. Min/maxing in BFA is a gear hunt while min/maxing relics in Legion is more like a "gear hope." As for pruning, it comes down to a design paradigm that you don't agree with, but you ought to be careful speaking for all players to say it's the wrong approach.

The shuffling of abilities could have went one of several ways which includes this method. Blizzard could have continued adding abilities and let players naturally decide what abilities were best left out of a rotation, which would compel Blizzard to constantly have to revisit unpopular abilities and balance them.

[Thelxi]

Well here it is: think back to the start of Legion where you only had a handful of artifact traits unlocked. The same shit will happen in BFA. There will be some sort of timesink that will eventually lead to unlocking everything and then some, just like our characters are right now.

It does surprise me a bit that Blizzard would go the same route for BfA, because in Legion I think the initial balance problems were entirely because of the damn artifact gating with different people unlocking different traits causing a balancing nightmare for Blizzard. Maybe the new system is linear? i don't even know.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Well here it is: think back to the start of Legion where you only had a handful of artifact traits unlocked. The same shit will happen in BFA. There will be some sort of timesink that will eventually lead to unlocking everything and then some, just like our characters are right now.

It does surprise me a bit that Blizzard would go the same route for BfA, because in Legion I think the initial balance problems were entirely because of the damn artifact gating with different people unlocking different traits causing a balancing nightmare for Blizzard. Maybe the new system is linear? i don't even know.

It's uh..multi linear? Something like that.
I look at the Azerite gear like armor proficiency. Higher proficiency means I can unlock the good stuff from lower level gear but high level (raid) gear might need a "proficiency" I haven't hit yet.

[Will]

Not really what I'm looking for as I was here for both WoD and Legion Alpha/Beta. There will not be major change from here. That is a fact. The only way they will not remain the same is for this Dev team to deviate from the last 2 Alpha/Beta releases where they made no real change.

Saying "It's only Alpha" is to say "I'm completely ignorant to how the last Alpha played out".

Bro, it played out exactly the same in all previous expansions. This is the EARLY alpha, the only people who get to play it are wow celebrities, world top players, and so on. When you, a member of the general public, gets into alpha or beta, it's during a much much later and more developed build.

Now, he makes a good point. Until you've seen all the Azerite traits, and until they've even done a real pass on the classes, it's FAR too early to make assumptions.

[Stormcleave]

If you are going to make a comment like that, I'd recommend unsubbing. This shouldn't be something coming out of your mouth given where we are in the Alpha.
For the record, I FINALLY got access today and I already have more binds on my Blood DK than before. The only spell I lost is Consumption and I gained two more. That's at 110, so effectively pre-patch.

If you need to see the silver lining you are way too swayed by other people's opinions and not able to see things clearly enough to enjoy the game.

There is NOTHING negative about the class design because nothing changed for most specs.

I have unsubbed already. But, it's not because Legion is bad. I live in a cold state and always hang up MMOs (WoW) when it begins to warm up. I unsubbed earlier this year however as I normally wait until May.

For the first time since Warhammer Online and Age of Conan I am looking into other MMOs. I will probably give FF14 a try while closely following BfA launch and feedback.

I love Blizzard games and have been a loyal fan/customer for 2 decades. I hope they figure it out as BfA looks fun. Class design looks really bleak so far and for the first time, the negativity from Alpha is frightening.

[Allenseiei]

I'm still waiting for an expansion alpha release where people dont post doomsday and skyfalling threads.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Comparing Azerite gear to artifacts is quite literally comparing static progression to a customizable tree. Not sure how you're seeing it the way you are.

While I don't think the sky is falling, doesn't the customisation make it the equivalent of only having half your artifact abilities available at any one time? There's still the heart of azeroth static AP progression, but instead of unlocking one trait at a time you unlock 4 but can only use 1.

[Stormcleave]

I'm still waiting for an expansion alpha release where people dont post doomsday and skyfalling threads.

Actually, Blizzard chooses it's first batch of Alpha/Beta testers based on free publicity. Hence the majority are streamers are well known for being positive and open-minded. However, for first time their is a near unanimous theme and that is "the classes feel dull and unfun." Normally, you hear more positivity (a lot more). Many vids are stating that gear will fix some of it but classes feel dull at their core. When video makers and streamers that usually remain positive are being this negative that's seriously worriesome. Take Preach for example, even though most hated MM in Legion Alpha/Beta his videos were all mostly positive. Preach has made several videos that are uncharacteristically negative. That is cause for concern. Even Sco, who is positive disliked almost every tanking change.

[SoulSoBreezy]

While I don't think the sky is falling, doesn't the customisation make it the equivalent of only having half your artifact abilities available at any one time? There's still the heart of azeroth static AP progression, but instead of unlocking one trait at a time you unlock 4 but can only use 1.

The alternative is to have everything available forever from the start.
That's some obvious hyperbole and I know it's not what's being argued, but I question, what's the problem with having a sense of progression along with customization? I have/had BIG gripes with Legendaries because they're a big pillar of legion's customization and stuck behind a system we players had almost no control of.

I said this earlier somewhere, but I see the Azerite system as more like an "armor proficiency" system. In this I'll be choosing between pieces of gear that I have more or less access to azerite traits, but ultimate as I play I'll eventually have access to all traits in a given ilvl bracket.
Stepping back further though I anticipate Azerite will be treated the same as Artifact Power, just less clumsy: it's an afterthought for the majority of players and a grind for the competitive players. In the end the meta will be about choosing the right gear from X source to achieve Y synergy.

I've yet to be convinced that pruning is bad (apart from case by case scenarios). It's an unnecessary burden for Blizzard to not shuffle around abilities and let players figure it out while having to juggle and rebalance dozens of buttons. Some say it sucks that Blizzard decides it for them. That's fair critique. Going beyond that and drawing simple conclusions isn't constructive though.

[Stormcleave]

The alternative is to have everything available forever from the start.
That's some obvious hyperbole and I know it's not what's being argued, but I question, what's the problem with having a sense of progression along with customization? I have/had BIG gripes with Legendaries because they're a big pillar of legion's customization and stuck behind a system we players had almost no control of.

I said this earlier somewhere, but I see the Azerite system as more like an "armor proficiency" system. In this I'll be choosing between pieces of gear that I have more or less access to azerite traits, but ultimate as I play I'll eventually have access to all traits in a given ilvl bracket.
Stepping back further though I anticipate Azerite will be treated the same as Artifact Power, just less clumsy: it's an afterthought for the majority of players and a grind for the competitive players. In the end the meta will be about choosing the right gear from X source to achieve Y synergy.

I've yet to be convinced that pruning is bad (apart from case by case scenarios). It's an unnecessary burden for Blizzard to not shuffle around abilities and let players figure it out while having to juggle and rebalance dozens of buttons. Some say it sucks that Blizzard decides it for them. That's fair critique. Going beyond that and drawing simple conclusions isn't constructive though.

Well, it's not just the prune, it's the near total lack of character development and progression post level 60. If you go and count what you truly gain over levels 60-120 you'd be shocked at what you see for many specs. In BfA your character gains 10 levels and yet gains no character progression or any sort of character advancement what-so-ever. In a RPG that's really odd. RPGs and level gain are always (not sometimes but always) associate level gain with character gain (character gain not gear gain). After BfA when we lose our newest rental progression there will be another 10 levels in which your character once again gains absolutely nothing. So, you will go from 60-120 and gain 2-3 abilities/passives and 3 talents (75, 90 and 100) for 60! levels. That's not acceptable.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Well, it's not just the prune, it's the near total lack of character development and progression post level 60. If you go and count what you truly gain over levels 60-120 you'd be shocked at what you see for many specs. In BfA your character gains 10 levels and yet gains no character progression or any sort of character advancement what-so-ever. In a RPG that's really odd. RPGs and level gain are always (not sometimes but always) associate level gain with character gain (character gain not gear gain). After BfA when we lose our newest rental progression there will be another 10 levels in which your character once again gains absolutely nothing. So, you will go from 60-120 and gain 2-3 abilities/passives and 3 talents (75, 90 and 100) for 60! levels. That's not acceptable.

Is it fair to come to that conclusion at this stage of development? I'm not insisting that you not be concerned and wait for launch, but going this far seems premature.
The "thing" to ask here is what should we expect from an expansion now that we're at our Xth? Going with your context, Legion's character growth came from artifact acquisition at the very start (AP doesn't count here IMO) and stuff related to Order Hall advancement. We know BFA will have the Azerite system that can possibly become more complex with every new piece of Azerite gear that's released. And with a mission table we have a hint of there being another Order Hall-like advancement system.

If you want to forward this argument, help me out here because I don't have the perspective. What other 13 year old MMOs have linear progression growth with every major update? Then that'd give even me a reason to run these systems parallel and try to come up with some feedback to push.

[lolpve]

I'm glad that there are still some people out there in Alpha complaining and trying to direct the devs in a better direction even in the face of so many sycophants on the forums. As it stands from watching Alpha content I will not buy the expansion, there seems to be very little meaningful content and its disturbing just how much BfA is dominated by talk about races, like its an expansion for RPers and furries.

I know the sycophants will jump on this comment but guys please keep complaining, fighting the prunes and fighting against the "Activisionism" of WoW.

[Terahertz]

Yeah so far I'm not excited for the next expansion whatsoever. The changes they made to my main, Windwalker Monk, have been outright nerfs. Nothing new or exciting. Just nerfs. It shows YET AGAIN how little they understand WW monks and how dull they're making the spec from a PvP stand points. Even for PvE the nerfs suck hard and it feels like those nerfs were done specifically for mythic+ tournaments, meaning they're disregarding all other aspects of the game for their damn PvE tournament.

I was considering playing rogue instead, but so far they're not looking exciting to me either.

It's a shame because aesthetically BFA looks cool. But I don't only play WoW for the aesthetics.

[Deleted]

There's very little to be excited about Shadow Priest in BFA. It's a directly neutered version of Legion's SP.

[Stormcleave]

I really feel like they should've added a level squish to BfA decreasing total levels to 70 or 80. With the prune and the continued prune there is not enough character advancement to cover 120 levels. There isnt enough current, character development to cover 80 levels let alone 120. There is far too much dead space after reaching level 68.

[Letdown]

I think the Azerite system has a lot of great potential for customization and control.
I'm glad that AM is moving to physical only across all tanks to lessen the tank disparity and am hopeful that we'll see stronger themes to define those specs.

Honestly I'm pretty concerned about tank design as someone that's had to force myself to stay on my tank through Legion simply because it's so hard finding a competent tank.

Is Vengeance DH indicative of what we should expect for tanks in BfA? If so, Tanks are looking like they are going to be awesome to play again after an expansion that was horrible to/for tanks.

Is the disaster that is BfA prot warrior what we should expect for tanks in BfA? If so, there's a 0% chance I will be tanking.

I don't need tanks to be even simpler/easier/less rewarding in BfA, you know?

[clevin]

Is it fair to come to that conclusion at this stage of development? I'm not insisting that you not be concerned and wait for launch, but going this far seems premature.

It's early alpha

It's late alpha... it's not even beta

It's beta...

It's the first patch...


So when CAN people give feedback and not be shot down by this ignorant bullshit from you people?

[infinitemeridian]

Classes are fine, even without artifacts. I think most people who play this game (i.e., people who don't post on these forums) would agree that the classes, even now, have too many abilities.

I'd rather have less abilities, but the ones we do have are fun and impactful than the bloat we have now. Legion has easily been the best expansion for classes and BFA continues this theme where Blizzard streamlines and does more with less.

Plus, azerite stuff isn't even in yet.