It's beyond stupid that the Legion was finished without us fighting Sargeras

[Eazy]

-snip-

But assuming that his spell has infinite range and will exterminate the universe somehow makes sense? How many enemies had horrible titles, the annihilator, the breaker, the destroyer, etc? People are inserting WAY too much headcanon into this. It took Sargeras 10,000 years to travel to Azeroth the old fashioned way.

Well, it's their game. They can write it as impossible as they want I think...

In the tooltip of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things you can read:

Argus ends creation, killing everything.

How reliable is this? No idea.

[dd614]

Just wait until the Void expansion where we're fighting WITH Sargeras to stop the Void Lords. The Legion was the only thing stopping the Void Lords from expanding into our universe. They're gone now. Sargeras wanted to conquer us because we stood in his way of preventing him from conquering Azeroth. A corrupted Azeroth would usher in the Void Lords. We'll need Sargeras' help to stop them in the future.

[UnluckyAmateur]

That comment is pointless, because we killed Argus, who was casting End of All things -> which probably could destroy whole galaxy/universe/whatever.

Argus was essentially a ripped out fetus of a titan.

[Qualia]

How reliable is this? No idea.

I'm not sure if tooltip is always to be taken at face value. There are obvious joke tooltips (i.e: Finger of Death's "inflicting 36000 shadow damage upon them, their children, and their children's children"), there are serious ones and there are ones that somewhere in between (i.e: Yogg's Extinguish All Life "Extinguish All Life. Kaput or Archimonde's "Instantly kills all enemies" which doesn't kill NPCs involved). I doubt Yogg can extinguish all life in the universe or even Titans' life, and I think Argus' EoAT might fall into this category as well. It might be able to kill all affected, but can be resisted by spells / beings of the same level of power (which is in line with more or less all abilities in WoW) or have a limited affected range.

[huth]

lore =/= gameplay

The spell only exists so you don't just idle around after the forced wipe.

So yes, lore != gameplay... and the spell you're talking about falls squarely on the right side of that.

[JustRob]

Wow, I honestly can't believe the stupidity of some of you. "End of All Things" does exactly what it says. It ends all creation. Including the Titans and the whole universe. It's not reflected in gameplay because it never happens lorewise.

Remember the fight with Deathwing, when he was casting the second Cataclysm? Yeah, the world didn't get destroyed either if he managed to finish casting that. Stop trying to use gameplay aspects to create headcanon.

[Deleted]

Isn't this all the same discussion that happened with Deathwing?

He was simple too powerful to fight head on, so we "rode his back and slowly wore him down" and then fought the shattered cataclysmic version, which obviously was far from as powerful as Deathwing at full power.

[Minikin]

Do you really think puny mortals are ready to fight a guy who can stab an entire planet?

can you imagine the size of the shield needed to deflect that

wait no


can you imagine the size of the tier shoulders that would go with that shield

WAIT NO!

imagine those shoulders on a tauren!!!

Honestly though OP, if blizz does this, its either to reuse or to show that we arent ready for a fight like that.

[JustRob]

Isn't this all the same discussion that happened with Deathwing?

He was simple too powerful to fight head on, so we "rode his back and slowly wore him down" and then fought the shattered cataclysmic version, which obviously was far from as powerful as Deathwing at full power.

But we fought him. That's the point. We fought the big bad guy.

[Flurryfang]

It was just dumb, that Legion ended with us at the power lvl of titans. The entire lore power lvl went through the roof in Legion and by the gods i hope we are taking a dive when it comes to that power in BFA.

[huth]

It's not reflected in gameplay because it never happens lorewise.

Then how do you know that it would actually End All Things? It might just be a somewhat overly pompous name.

You're just pushing your own headcanon here.

Remember the fight with Deathwing, when he was casting the second Cataclysm? Yeah, the world didn't get destroyed either if he managed to finish casting that. Stop trying to use gameplay aspects to create headcanon.

You mean that spell that actually makes the screen go black and generally gives the illusion that yes, Deathwing really did just destroy Azeroth?

Maybe you should pay more attention to what you're talking about.

[Qualia]

Remember the fight with Deathwing, when he was casting the second Cataclysm? Yeah, the world didn't get destroyed either if he managed to finish casting that. Stop trying to use gameplay aspects to create headcanon.

In case this is sarcasm, which I believe it is - yes, the world actually didn't get destroyed. We literally have the End Time as proof - that is the future in which Deathwing successfully brought the Cataclysm. Unless I was blind, the world was pretty intact, just charred. All mortals were likely dead, but the Old God(s) would still be around and powerful enough to make Deathwing impaled himself. So, no, the world didn't get destroyed.

Similarly, Yogg's Extinguish All Life doesn't, well, literally end all lives either. You'd have a hard time to convince anyone with slightest amount of lore knowledge that all lives - including Sargeras - would be extinguished by a single spell from merely an Old God. No, it, at best, extinguish all life (on Azeroth) and at worst, kill things in a much smaller area.

Essentially, anything that isn't said by Blizzard or the omniscient narrator can subjected to being wrong, as none of the characters are omniscient, and Blizzard has proved that the tooltips aren't always the most reliable source of canon to fall back on (unless you are claiming that Archimonde's FoD was such a potent spell that it ignore time and assaulted our grand children as well). EoAT falls into this category: it can be true, it can be wrong, but there wasn't anything as undeniable proof that it must be true. Logic-wise, it's very questionable at best or likely isn't at worst.

[Dastreus]

The only way we could've fought Sargeras, would be an extreme power drain on Sargy, or he is the entire raid, with us going into him with lore characters, to defeat him bit by bit.

[JustRob]

Then how do you know that it would actually End All Things? It might just be a somewhat overly pompous name.

You're just pushing your own headcanon here.


You mean that spell that actually makes the screen go black and generally gives the illusion that yes, Deathwing really did just destroy Azeroth?

Maybe you should pay more attention to what you're talking about.

But it didn’t, did it? We could still press “Release Spirit” afterwards, couldn’t we? What did you want them to do? You know they can’t -actually- end the world and reflect it in-game.

In case this is sarcasm, which I believe it is - yes, the world actually didn't get destroyed. We literally have the End Time as proof - that is the future in which Deathwing successfully brought the Cataclysm. Unless I was blind, the world was pretty intact, just charred. All mortals were likely dead, but the Old God(s) would still be around and powerful enough to make Deathwing impaled himself. So, no, the world didn't get destroyed.

Similarly, Yogg's Extinguish All Life doesn't, well, literally end all lives either. You'd have a hard time to convince anyone with slightest amount of lore knowledge that all lives - including Sargeras - would be extinguished by a single spell from merely an Old God. No, it, at best, extinguish all life (on Azeroth) and at worst, kill things in a much smaller area.

Essentially, anything that isn't said by Blizzard or the omniscient narrator can subjected to being wrong, as none of the characters are omniscient, and Blizzard has proved that the tooltips aren't always the most reliable source of canon to fall back on (unless you are claiming that Archimonde's FoD was such a potent spell that it ignore time and assaulted our grand children as well). EoAT falls into this category: it can be true, it can be wrong, but there wasn't anything as undeniable proof that it must be true. Logic-wise, it's very questionable at best or likely isn't at worst.

What you’re talking about is the Hour of Twilight, not the second Cataclysm that Deathwing was trying to bring about. I can’t discuss lore with you people if you don’t know the half of it.

[Qualia]

What you’re talking about is the Hour of Twilight, not the second Cataclysm that Deathwing was trying to bring about. I can’t discuss lore with you people if you don’t know the half of it.

Aye, it's "hard to discuss lore with you if you don't know the half of it", indeed. Just that canonical lore doesn't seem to be what you are thinking of.

The End Time is what will happen if we fail to stop Deathwing ("One of an infinite number of potential outcomes, this timeway depicts the desolate future of Azeroth should its defenders fail to stop Deathwing") - which, obviously, includes the events transpired at the Maelstrom unless you are claiming that we didn't stop Deathwing there and he just, uhh, self-exploded for some reasons. The Hour of Twilight is a more general term for when the force of the Void triumphs on Azeroth (the Old Gods released, the Void consumed everything ,etc. - which varies from one part of the story to another).

This is further reinforced with Chronicle 3, when Thrall and the Aspects face off against Deathwing at the Maelstrom: "N'Zoth infused Deathwing with more of its power - more than the Old God had ever given the black Dragon Aspect before. The influx of energy was so great that Deathwing's unstable body wrenched apart, and molten tentacles unfurled from his broken hide. Thrall turned the Dragon Soul against this aberration. <...> The explosive power annihilated his tormented mind and body. In that moment, N'Zoth's campaign to bring about the Hour of Twilight collapsed". If the second Cataclysm wouldn't bring forth the Hour of Twilight, N'Zoth's campaign would have failed when Deathwing retreated and tried to escape back to Deepholm (and failed), not after he further infused Deathwing for the second Cataclysm and Deathwing still was killed by us. Not only that, you are essentially suggesting that N'Zoth is somehow stupid enough that he'd empower Deathwing to bring forth his - N'Zoth's - own death (as you claim that the world would be destroyed, so would N'Zoth then), and go against everything the Old Gods / the force of the Void had been trying to do. With that said, that second Cataclysm would bring forth the Hour of Twilight - again, why would N'Zoth allowed, and even empowered Deathwing to carry it on otherwise?

In fact, even that Cataclysm spell's very own tooltip said so: "Deathwing attempts to finish the job he started by bringing forth a second Cataclysm". What kind of job did you think he started? To usher in the Hour of Twilight under the command of N'Zoth, not to destroy Azeroth so that there wouldn't be a Titan for him to corrupt. Even without information from Chronicle 3 (which to be honest, didn't really say anything new in regards to this matter), this tooltip and the End Time's description should have been enough, so I'm not sure why you thought Deathwing's Cataclysm would have destroyed Azeroth. Did you, by any chance, also think that Archimonde destroyed AU Draenor in WoD because his Rain of Chaos' tooltip said "Archimonde calls down a rain of meteors to destroy Draenor"? Nay, as I said, not all tooltips are to be taken at face value. Many of them are simply flowery language.

[JustRob]

Aye, it's "hard to discuss lore with you if you don't know the half of it", indeed. Just that canonical lore doesn't seem to be what you are thinking of.

The End Time is what will happen if we fail to stop Deathwing ("One of an infinite number of potential outcomes, this timeway depicts the desolate future of Azeroth should its defenders fail to stop Deathwing") - which, obviously, includes the events transpired at the Maelstrom unless you are claiming that we didn't stop Deathwing there and he just, uhh, self-exploded for some reasons. The Hour of Twilight is a more general term for when the force of the Void triumphs on Azeroth (the Old Gods released, the Void consumed everything ,etc. - which varies from one part of the story to another).

This is further reinforced with Chronicle 3, when Thrall and the Aspects face off against Deathwing at the Maelstrom: "N'Zoth infused Deathwing with more of its power - more than the Old God had ever given the black Dragon Aspect before. The influx of energy was so great that Deathwing's unstable body wrenched apart, and molten tentacles unfurled from his broken hide. Thrall turned the Dragon Soul against this aberration. <...> The explosive power annihilated his tormented mind and body. In that moment, N'Zoth's campaign to bring about the Hour of Twilight collapsed". If the second Cataclysm wouldn't bring forth the Hour of Twilight, N'Zoth's campaign would have failed when Deathwing retreated and tried to escape back to Deepholm (and failed), not after he further infused Deathwing for the second Cataclysm and Deathwing still was killed by us. Not only that, you are essentially suggesting that N'Zoth is somehow stupid enough that he'd empower Deathwing to bring forth his - N'Zoth's - own death (as you claim that the world would be destroyed, so would N'Zoth then), and go against everything the Old Gods / the force of the Void had been trying to do. With that said, that second Cataclysm would bring forth the Hour of Twilight - again, why would N'Zoth allowed, and even empowered Deathwing to carry it on otherwise?

In fact, even that Cataclysm spell's very own tooltip said so: "Deathwing attempts to finish the job he started by bringing forth a second Cataclysm". What kind of job did you think he started? To usher in the Hour of Twilight under the command of N'Zoth, not to destroy Azeroth so that there wouldn't be a Titan for him to corrupt. Even without information from Chronicle 3 (which to be honest, didn't really say anything new in regards to this matter), this tooltip and the End Time's description should have been enough, so I'm not sure why you thought Deathwing's Cataclysm would have destroyed Azeroth. Did you, by any chance, also think that Archimonde destroyed AU Draenor in WoD because his Rain of Chaos' tooltip said "Archimonde calls down a rain of meteors to destroy Draenor"? Nay, as I said, not all tooltips are to be taken at face value. Many of them are simply flowery language.

You're saying you can't take all tooltips at face value, but at the same time you use several of those tooltips and in-game descriptions to back your argument. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Qualia]

You're saying you can't take all tooltips at face value, but at the same time you use several of those tooltips and in-game descriptions to back your argument. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Most of the tooltips I brought up were examples that you can't take all of them at face value, though. The ones I brought up - Yogg's Extinguish All Life, or Archimonde's Rain of Chaos and Finger of Death, are examples where the abilities do *NOT* work the same way the tooltips were worded. Obviously, Archimonde's Rain of Chaos didn't destroy AU Draenor, and there is no way Yogg's Extinguish All Life would be able to kill everything it hit. They were the case in which it's obvious that we can't take the tooltips at their face values.

The only tooltip I used to back my argument was Deathwing's Cataclysm ("Deathwing attempts to finish the job he started") - and it was just used as a supplement (and not the core) for other argument. You can remove that tooltip, and the argument still hold with information from Chronicle 3 and The End Time's description from the official website. This is different from the argument about End of All Things that revolves heavily around the tooltip and in-game characters' opinions - which, as I said, are subjected to being wrong (see part of the Unreliable Narrator trope) as none of them were from an omniscient perspective (i.e: Chronicle) or could simply be flowery language. Take away EoAT's tooltip, and suddenly the entire argument that "Argus can end everything in the universe with no exception in a single hit" doesn't have much to hold onto anymore, especially in the light that it doesn't make sense, logically, for it to works as the tooltip said (unless you are claiming Sargeras has some sort of secret suicidal tendency that we aren't aware of).

[Ophenia]

Neither am I. I'm talking about the big ass cast he begins casting after he kills us that we interrupt once we're alive again. Isn't that the 'end of all things' you were referring to? If you ever actually wipe on it (my guild embarrassingly did once because we all assumed someone else was going to stop it) you'll notice it doesn't have the range to even hit the Titans in their chairs.

Did you expect that anytime someone fails to interrupt this spell, Blizzard servers are rebooted and we all have to start from scratch ?

What is this discussion even about ?

Yes, in-game that doesn't mean shit, but in the lore if you don't interrupt this End of All Things (which will never happen lorewise), all things are ended, I guess. Including Titans standing 50m away, obviously.

[JustRob]

Did you expect that anytime someone fails to interrupt this spell, Blizzard servers are rebooted and we all have to start from scratch ?

What is this discussion even about ?

Yes, in-game that doesn't mean shit, but in the lore if you don't interrupt this End of All Things (which will never happen lorewise), all things are ended, I guess. Including Titans standing 50m away, obviously.

This is my point. You can't disregard a big bad's ultimate attack simply because some things cannot be shown in gameplay. You can't use gameplay to draw your conclusions. That's like saying Goldshire actually only has 30 or so inhabitants who all live in the inn and the blacksmith's workshop because that's how it is in-game.

[Uoyredrum]

TIL we should have fought and defeated a guy who casually cleaves planets in half, sounds legit.