Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[Shalcker]

How many variants has Russia developed of this Russian nerve agent?

Well, wiki mentions "most potent" being novichok-5 and novichok-7; it is likely there were more of them.

[Felya]

Well, wiki mentions "most potent" being novichok-5 and novichok-7; it is likely there were more of them.

So... your point of contention, is which Russian nerve agent was used?

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Is he still trying to deflect this thing?

I’m not sure what he is doing... I’m trying to see how many times I can say ‘Russian nerve agent’.

[cubby]

So... your point of contention, is which Russian nerve agent was used?

Don't forget to ask him what a WMD is and how it's classified. I wonder if Mother Russia got back to him on that issue.

I’m not sure what he is doing... I’m trying to see how many times I can say ‘Russian nerve agent’.

Lol, I saw that in a few posts above. Well done.

[Shalcker]

So... your point of contention, is which Russian nerve agent was used?

It's not "point of contention"; i'm just trying to see if there is sufficient information to pinpoint source in supposed "36 hour deadline". Even purely theoretical.

[Crispin]

Is he still trying to deflect this thing?

Meh, he's admitted to lying years ago, for the sake of arguing, the guy think he's some kind of online KGB agent, learning to master, his master Putins lying through his teeth "skills"

[Shalcker]

Meh, he's admitted to lying years ago, for the sake of arguing, the guy think he's some kind of online KGB agent, learning to master, his master Putins lying through his teeth "skills"

Misrepresenting what was actually said is your usual behaviour.

[cubby]

Misrepresenting what was actually said is your usual behaviour.

And you don't even see the irony here at all, do you? Or do you now understand what WMDs are and what proportional response means in their use?

[alexw]

Sadly the UK doesn't really have any middle ground for dealing with Russia. We can either glass all their major cities or write them a sternly worded letter ^^

There is plenty they could do. There is a lot of dirty Russian oligarch money flowing through London and by all accounts its much worse than New York for this. They could go after this money and confiscate it. The oligarchs who keep Putin and power and support him would not be happy to lose a goodly chuck of their wealth.

[Deleted]

There is plenty they could do. There is a lot of dirty Russian oligarch money flowing through London and by all accounts its much worse than New York for this. They could go after this money and confiscate it. The oligarchs who keep Putin and power and support him would not be happy to lose a goodly chuck of their wealth.

the chance of this happening is pretty low. Why would the elite go after fellow kleptocrats if they can just make some noise and keep the income. Dirty money powers London.

[Shalcker]

There is plenty they could do. There is a lot of dirty Russian oligarch money flowing through London and by all accounts its much worse than New York for this. They could go after this money and confiscate it. The oligarchs who keep Putin and power and support him would not be happy to lose a goodly chuck of their wealth.

If that is what it takes for you to do it, well, then Putin totally did it! Obviously he is feeling that he can do that because of all those Russian money in UK! Maybe he actually bought your government, and all their claims to contrary are simple deception! Go force them to act!

No Russian money in UK -> no killings! Stick to that!

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And you don't even see the irony here at all, do you? Or do you now understand what WMDs are and what proportional response means in their use?

I'm not sure you are even capable of reading relevant documents, despite them being easily accessible. Guess all you can manage is low-level trolling. Pretty sad.

[cubby]

I'm not sure you are even capable of reading relevant documents, despite them being easily accessible. Guess all you can manage is low-level trolling. Pretty sad.

You just look more and more ignorant every time you bring up "relevant documents" instead of answering the basic question of what WMDs are and how they are classified.

We're not trolling (that's an infractionable offense, btw, calling someone a troll) - we're calling you out on your constant bullshit.

[caervek]

There is plenty they could do. There is a lot of dirty Russian oligarch money flowing through London and by all accounts its much worse than New York for this. They could go after this money and confiscate it.

Problems with this idea:

1: It's been like this for years, the Blair government actively encouraged it to enrich London, almost to the point it's dependant on it now.
2: When you say confiscate you actually mean steal, generally speaking it's quite bad for your image/position as the financial hub of the continent to go around stealing peoples money on mass.

I doubt our plan to deal with Russia is to hit them in our wallet lol.

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So... your point of contention, is which Russian nerve agent was used?

In fairness it's a valid point as it appears the media are one again saying Russian when they mean Soviet. It's a small difference but a very valid one, I.E back during the Ukrainian civil war they ran a "not fake but not true either" story about how a Russian tank that had never exported had been spotted in Ukraine and itt must be proof of Russia supplying rebels, the reality was that it was a Soviet tank that had never been exported spotted in the former USSR.

To the point I think he was making, if the variant is a newer one developed in Russia then that's basically a smoking gun and it can be considered a calling card, if it's a much older variant not developed in Russia then that makes things more complicated as pretty much everything but nukes has hit the black market since the fall of the USSR.

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You just look more and more ignorant every time you bring up "relevant documents" instead of answering the basic question of what WMDs are and how they are classified.

He's telling you to Google it yourself (like you say it's a basic question, expecting him to do it for you is pretty lazy).

[Felya]

It's not "point of contention"; i'm just trying to see if there is sufficient information to pinpoint source in supposed "36 hour deadline". Even purely theoretical.

You are questioning which version of Russian nerve agent, was used to as the Russian nerve agent, against a man who was freed from Russian prison... after Russians were caught trying to influence American politicians and business men. I don’t think which Russian nerve agent was used, is relevant to Russian nerve agent being used.

[Deja Thoris]

I don't understand why they'd do this, assuming its the Russians.

They must have known it would be discovered pretty quickly so whats the message? That they can act with impunity? Are they trying to see how far they can push May or whats the angle?

[Shadowmelded]

I don't understand why they'd do this, assuming its the Russians.

They must have known it would be discovered pretty quickly so whats the message? That they can act with impunity? Are they trying to see how far they can push May or whats the angle?

Sends a message to 'traitors' and paints a story of the West being out to get Russia requiring a strongman to stand up to them.

[cubby]

He's telling you to Google it yourself (like you say it's a basic question, expecting him to do it for you is pretty lazy).

I think you're confused, and haven't followed our discussion (his and mine). I don't need to google anything - it's he that is completely ignorant of WMDs, how they are relevant, various nation's' responses to their use on their soil, and why it's all relevant to the attack in the UK.

[Felya]

In fairness it's a valid point as it appears the media are one again saying Russian when they mean Soviet. It's a small difference but a very valid one, I.E back during the Ukrainian civil war they ran a "not fake but not true either" story about how a Russian tank that had never exported had been spotted in Ukraine and itt must be proof of Russia supplying rebels, the reality was that it was a Soviet tank that had never been exported spotted in the former USSR.

To the point I think he was making, if the variant is a newer one developed in Russia then that's basically a smoking gun and it can be considered a calling card, if it's a much older variant not developed in Russia then that makes things more complicated as pretty much everything but nukes has hit the black market since the fall of the USSR.

This doesn’t make any sense... the distinction you are making makes no sense. If it’s a derivative of an older strain if a Russian nerve agent, it is still a Russian nerve agent. This is not a mater of a calling card, but what is available. Putin isn’t some James Bond villain who leaves behind a calling card... he is a former KGB agent...

[Crispin]

Misrepresenting what was actually said is your usual behaviour.

No it’s spot on, deny, spin the thruth or throw conspiracy theories into the mix, is all you do. It’s ok tho, I’m sure you need the money.

[Shalcker]

You just look more and more ignorant every time you bring up "relevant documents" instead of answering the basic question of what WMDs are and how they are classified.

You needed to show that you actually know what you're talking about, and you failed.

You just asserted that i'm wrong without anything supporting your viewpoint. And your position was vague enough that you could dodge by saying that "i meant something else". Thus it wasn't worth engaging with.

We're not trolling (that's an infractionable offense, btw, calling someone a troll) - we're calling you out on your constant bullshit.

That is, in fact, also infractionable offence.

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You are questioning which version of Russian nerve agent, was used to as the Russian nerve agent, against a man who was freed from Russian prison... after Russians were caught trying to influence American politicians and business men. I don’t think which Russian nerve agent was used, is relevant to Russian nerve agent being used.

What do "Russians caught trying to influence American politicians and businessman" have to do with Soviet nerve agent being used?

Which one was used could be relevant to track route; lesser versions were also apparently published in USSR journals as "insecticides" (and considering how slow it acted in this case, it is probably one of lesser versions).

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No it’s spot on, deny, spin the thruth or throw conspiracy theories into the mix, is all you do. It’s ok tho, I’m sure you need the money.

Misunderstanding human motivations is also common.

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Skripal case: Theresa May now demands Russia prove itself innocent
British government lacking evidence of Russian guilt reverses the burden of proof

After a week of speculation and allegations British Prime Minister Theresa May has finally spoken about the murder attempt on the former British spy Sergey Skripal, which has left both him and his daughter critically ill.

This how the Guardian reports her statement

" Based on the positive identification of this chemical agent by world-leading experts at Porton Down, our knowledge that Russia has previously produced this agent and would still be capable of doing so, Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations, and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for assassinations, the government has concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the act against Sergei and Yulia Skripal….

Either this was a direct act by the Russian state against our country. Or the Russian government lost control of this potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others…

Should there be no credible response, we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom……

This attempted murder using a weapons-grade nerve agent in a British town was not just a crime against the Skripals.

“It was an indiscriminate and reckless act against the United Kingdom, putting the lives of innocent civilians at risk. And we will not tolerate such a brazen attempt to murder innocent civilians on our soil. I commend this statement to the House…."

The first thing to say about this statement is that it is essentially an admission that the British authorities have not been able to identify any suspects who might have carried out the attack on Skripal.

No person or persons have been identified as suspects in the case, and the only conclusion one can draw from Theresa May’s statement is that the British authorities either do not have the names of any suspects, or are uncertain about any names they do have..

I say this because if the British authorities did suspect any person or persons of carrying out the attack, Theresa May would presumably not be publicly speculating about whether this person or these persons might or might not have acted on the Russian government’s instructions.

The second thing to say about this statement is that the Russian attribution the British government is making is entirely based upon a scientific assessment that the nerve agent used in the attack was one of the agents developed by the USSR in the 1970s and 1980s as part of the so-called Novichok programme.

On the face of it this seems an uncertain basis upon which to attribute responsibility.

Details of the Novichok programme were disclosed by the Russians to the West decades ago, and the properties of the nerve agents developed as part of this programme are well known. That presumably is why it was possible to assess that the nerve agent used in the attack on Skripal was one of the nerve agents developed as part of this programme.

Given that this is so, it is not obvious how it is possible to say that because the nerve agent used was of a type which was originally developed in Russia as part of the Novichok programme, that must mean that the Russian government or Russians were definitely responsible for the attack.

That seems to me a little like saying that because sarin was originally developed decades ago in Germany, that means that any chemical weapons attack which uses sarin is attributable to Germany.

...

What this ultimatum in fact actually shows is that the British government is determined to declare the Russian government guilty, but cannot prove its case, so it has to use an ultimatum to provide proof of guilt which ‘proof’ is however actually a sham.

...

[Deleted]

There is plenty they could do. There is a lot of dirty Russian oligarch money flowing through London and by all accounts its much worse than New York for this. They could go after this money and confiscate it. The oligarchs who keep Putin and power and support him would not be happy to lose a goodly chuck of their wealth.

Actually those are oligarchs that UK protects. Well... most of them, the rest are also thieves so I'm sure their money won't be missed by anyone. They looted Russia when Jeltsin ran country and ran with money to UK. UK was very happy to take their money and give them permanent residence. Today UK is just pissed Russia stopped them from looting.

So that's a good idea. However if they do that, it would be highly illegal and Chinese might pull out their money out of UK. That's many billions. So there is downside for UK.