It's beyond stupid that the Legion was finished without us fighting Sargeras

[Qualia]

Did you expect that anytime someone fails to interrupt this spell, Blizzard servers are rebooted and we all have to start from scratch ?

What is this discussion even about ?

Yes, in-game that doesn't mean shit, but in the lore if you don't interrupt this End of All Things (which will never happen lorewise), all things are ended, I guess. Including Titans standing 50m away, obviously.

I entered the discussion late, but as far as I know, it's about whether Argus is as powerful as some thought. The discussion started with someone saying that we just defeated a being that could destroy the universe in a single hit, we should be able to fight Sargeras (who is nowhere near that level in lore as far as we know) just fine. Keep in mind that Argus was both newborn and in an avatar instead of a full fledged Titan (as said by Ion, "Aggramar, for example, is not the actual Titan Aggramar. The actual Aggramar would have stepped on you like an ant. <..> And it's the similar stories with some of the others Titans that you may deal with"). If he could destroy the Universe in a single spell, the Titans before, and Sargeras up until now, should be able to do the same thing - which obviously wasn't the case. Logic-wise, EoAT being a universe-burster spell doesn't make sense, as it'd kill Sargeras in that case. Would Sargeras keep Argus around unattended if Argus is way more deadly than him and could kill him with little preparation? Why would Sargeras just leave Argus alone - and even empowered him - casting EoAT if it's going to destroy the Universe, which means Azeroth would be gone as well? That sounds as right as claiming that N'Zoth empowered Deathwing to literally destroy Azeroth (which would go against what the force of the Void wanted).

It'd make more sense if EoAT is more in line with literally every other abilities in WoW (and I'm talking about lore-wise instead of just game-mechanic): it can either be resisted / countered (for example, it can take the life everything, but beings more powerful than Argus - i.e: Sargeras - could defend against it just fine) and / or have a more limited range. The argument that EoAT can destroy the universe in a single hit (which would make it, and Argus in turn, the most deadly force in WoW story by far) is only really backed by its own tooltip - which as pointed out, may not always be reliable (we've seen other "kill everything" spells that no way can do what their tooltips said - i.e: Yogg's Extinguish All Life). It could simply be just flowery language (and yes, the "one hit" part is important).

Assuming that EoAT indeed destroy the Universe in one hit - obviously, Blizzard don't need to go as far as rebooting the servers. I wouldn't even demand them to create a new skybox to reflect the 3s of WoW reality between the spell hit and end of the encounter. That wouldn't make much sense in term of cost efficiency.
However, they could easily show the Pantheon drop dead after Argus finished casting if they want to. They could have destroyed the Seat of Pantheon if they wanted. They could even go the Deathwing's Cataclysm's way of having the screen fade to black. All of those mechanics have been implemented in other encounters before. None of that happened - so one have to wonder, if it wasn't show with in-game mechanic, didn't explicitly stated in lore, and doesn't make sense lore-wise - would it really work the same way as people hyped it to be? Saying that "those were in-game depictions, the lack of them doesn't say anything" doesn't hold, as EoAT destroying the Universe in one spell is game-mechanic (its tooltip in particular) as well. No where in lore said the same thing, just - at best - that Argus has the power to usher in the end of all things and unmake the universe. It didn't say he could do that with a single spell which is the point of the current discussion, if I'm not wrong. All in all, with what we know so far, maybe EoAT can destroy the Universe with a single hit, maybe it can't - but the later is more likely to be the case.

[Ophenia]

If he could destroy the Universe in a single spell, the Titans before, and Sargeras up until now, should be able to do the same thing - which obviously wasn't the case. Logic-wise, EoAT being a universe-burster spell doesn't make sense, as it'd kill Sargeras in that case. Would Sargeras keep Argus around unattended if Argus is way more deadly than him and could kill him with little preparation?

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but we're basically saving the Titans' essences, they were basically defeated and their "physical presence" destroyed by Sargeras, they only have a few remnants of power here (enhanced by the Seat). That's why they're just giving us some assistance during the encounter, but they cannot deal with Argus right now (even as an Avatar, he's still "alive", not like his mates). Even Aman'thul's attempt is quite pathetic (yeah br0 I manipulate time - 2secs later - Argus still moving).

We don't know whether Sargeras could have withstand this End of All Things. Sargeras was quite powerless in his actual form too, all he could do was watching the battleground. He was literally on Argus (the planet ! ) the whole time as far as I understood, if he had the slight amount of power, he would've eradicated us himself.

So either he thought we'd never pass Aggramar and preferred focus on Azeroth (as he never had this golden opportunity, now that Illidan has opened up a way, he just went straight for it), or he just couldn't do shit.

What I think is that nobody, not even Sargeras, could know what a 10-thousand-year-tortured Planet Soul could be capable of. And within Sargeras's plan, he never thought that we could face Argus for that long, enraging him even more and forcing him to use all he could to defeat us. In Sargeras's plan, Argus would be born, then blindly following Sargeras's orders or Sargeras could've taken him as Avatar (I don't really know if this is clearly said somewhere, just assumptions). Now Argus is born and directly facing us (+ the Pantheon), he has to defend himself, with all his Rage.

To me, nothing that happened in the Seat of the Pantheon could be predicted by Sargeras. Maybe the End of All Things was a big failure, as he didn't anticipate this kind of reaction from his baby enraged Titan.

[Qualia]

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but we're basically saving the Titans' essences, they were basically defeated and their "physical presence" destroyed by Sargeras, they only have a few remnants of power here (enhanced by the Seat). That's why they're just giving us some assistance during the encounter, but they cannot deal with Argus right now (even as an Avatar, he's still "alive", not like his mates). Even Aman'thul's attempt is quite pathetic (yeah br0 I manipulate time - 2secs later - Argus still moving).

You are right, all the Titans except Sargeras were basically just essences / avatars. However, Sargeras himself wasn't powerless - as we could see how effortlessly he stabbed Azeroth when he needed to. I'm sure that if he wanted to, he'd have destroyed us that easily - he likely just underestimated us and didn't think it was necessary. You are also correct that he was just moving towards Azeroth the entire time as depicted by the skyboxes (which shows Sargeras / the cloud coming closer and closer to Azeroth) and reached Azeroth when we arrived the Seat of the Pantheon, that's why he left us untouched as he had bigger prize to concern himself with. Sargeras doesn't need an avatar, though, as he has his own body. He only used avatars to invade Azeroth before as there wasn't any source of power strong enough left to create a portal for a Titan to go through after the WoE was destroyed at the end of WoTA.

I do agree that technically, it's not entirely impossible that Sargeras simply didn't know that Argus was capable of End of All Things. That's why I did say that maybe EoAT can destroy the Universe, and maybe it can't, instead of just ruled out the chance that it can altogether. However, for that to be the case, Argus would need to be some sort of extremely powerful Titan or something: if he in an avatar form, a shadow of what he can truly be, is powerful enough to destroy everything in the universe with a single spell, how powerful would Argus be normally? He'd have to be a Titan many levels more powerful than any known Titan, including Sargeras, as the most the Titans could do in lore so far were to destroy solar-systems (according to Algalon), which is quite far below the universe. Sargeras had been next to Argus for millennia, he'd be rather... dim if he truly wasn't aware of how powerful that world-soul is compared to his and his former allies. Noted that Sargeras, while didn't directly fought us, was still empowering Argus and assaulting us with his magic from other side of the portal during the encounter, so it's not like he didn't know what transpired during our battle. *If* Sargeras had the slightest hint of it and EoAT can truly kill everything without exception in one hit, as I said, it wouldn't make much sense for Sargeras to left Argus alone unattended with us.

So all in all, I don't rule out the chance that EoAT can kill everything in the Universe completely in a single strike. However, I believe that it's more likely for the tooltip to be just flowery language. This isn't the first time that happens either, Yogg's Extinguish All Life's tooltip also said that it "Kill everything. Kaput", but it obviously can't kill literally everything or the Keepers - not even counting the Titans - wouldn't have been able to defeat Yogg. The issue is that, other than the tooltip, nothing really support the argument that the ability would wipe out the Universe in one cast either. It'd have been much easier to get to a conclusion if there was anything from an omniscient source (i.e: Chronicle, Devloper's statements on Twitter / Q&A, etc.) supported that argument, but there wasn't. Wouldn't it make more sense for the spell to be the same as any other power in WoW (Aman'thul's example that you brought up is a good one) that can be resisted / countered by beings as, or more powerful than the caster? Or maybe it has a limited range instead of virtually infinite, which would explain why Sargeras didn't mind it as it wouldn't reach his prized Azeroth either way?

Anyway, to what originally started this now that I traced the posts back, I don't agree that we could face Sargeras just because we just defeated Argus. One is a Titan in his full might and glory that stabbed a planet with a massive sword, another is an avatar that supposedly is a lot weaker than one's normal self. Indeed, there are ways for us to fight Sargeras (i.e: weaken him, or maybe we get empowered by the Pantheon & Argus' soul), but in my opinion, it'd feel rather lackluster to fit that plot in just one patch / raid / encounter. That sort of plot for us to fight against a full fledged Titan deserve an entire expansion. I'd prefer the current conclusion (Sargeras was imprisoned by other Titans) to preserve whatever dignity Sargeras' power supposed to have, and leave our fights to a future expansion instead.

[thilicen]

What would be beyond stupid is if we were able to even create a dent in him.

[yetgdhfgh]

Clearly Sargeras was based off Surtr and blizz knew it was impossible for us mere mortals to kill him and that only his breathren could take him down like they did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surtr

[faithbane]

Clearly Sargeras was based off Surtr and blizz knew it was impossible for us mere mortals to kill him and that only his breathren could take him down like they did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surtr

To be fair, the earlier/preretcon version of sargeras was basically surtr. He had is flaming sword, fighting against the other gods with his demon army and promised to burn the planet with his on the nose "burning legion" reference. The new seriously confused sargeras is an unholy mess of bad writing.

My main goal was just to stop the void!
I loved azeroth ever since I first seen her but I am also actively trying to destroy the planet and had multiple schemes that could have destroyed it already
I am quite aware of the old god presence on azeroth yet I will send my corrupter and manipulator demons to weaken the only races that are actively pushing them back
oh, also I killed all the pantheon and somehow resurrected their souls and torturing them to serve me eternally but deep down I'm such a good misunderstood guy

[Ophenia]

However, Sargeras himself wasn't powerless - as we could see how effortlessly he stabbed Azeroth when he needed to.

Do we know that for sure ?

To me there are still some shadows here. If he was still all-powerful he could've wiped us in 2 seconds on Argus before going to Azeroth.
I have the feeling he only "gained back" his physical form when the Seat's beam hit "him". Maybe the Pantheon needed him to have a physical form in order for them to imprison him, they couldn't contain him in his "cloud" form.

That seems weird to me that Sargeras was just cloudy-hugging Azeroth while we were fighting Argus, and decided to wait for the Pantheon to actually do something before actually doing what he wanted to do.

I hope we'll get some official explanation some day because it's not really easy to understand what happens in raids, especially when Mythic phases are involved and contradictory with the cinematics.

[huth]

AThe End Time is what will happen if we fail to stop Deathwing ("One of an infinite number of potential outcomes, this timeway depicts the desolate future of Azeroth should its defenders fail to stop Deathwing") - which, obviously, includes the events transpired at the Maelstrom unless you are claiming that we didn't stop Deathwing there and he just, uhh, self-exploded for some reasons.

Since he's still got his armour on, it clearly doesn't include the Maelstrom. End Time shows the result if you fail to obtain or use the Dragon Soul.

- - - Updated - - -

But it didn’t, did it? We could still press “Release Spirit” afterwards, couldn’t we? What did you want them to do? You know they can’t -actually- end the world and reflect it in-game.

You're trying to argue lore using gameplay mechanics. Of course they can't just shut down the server or delete the characters, but that doesn't mean that he didn't just destroy the world. You just got put back to before his success. After all, Nozdormu was right there.

[Sparklelord]

I agree, considering WoW's current lifespan and the scale of Legion, we should have fought him with the Titans help.

My guess? The Titans are going to have to free him to get his help when defeating the Void.

Been saying this for a while now. It will be Legion 2.0. Instead of Maiev freeing Illidan/Illidari to fight the Legion after such a long time imprisoned, it will be Illidan freeing Sarg after a long time imprisoned to battle the Void. It's the WoD Legendary ring achievement/monument :P

[JustRob]

Since he's still got his armour on, it clearly doesn't include the Maelstrom. End Time shows the result if you fail to obtain or use the Dragon Soul.

- - - Updated - - -



You're trying to argue lore using gameplay mechanics. Of course they can't just shut down the server or delete the characters, but that doesn't mean that he didn't just destroy the world. You just got put back to before his success. After all, Nozdormu was right there.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Argus the Unmaker is he, the "Unmaker", regarded as the single greatest threat we have ever faced, with the power to literally undo creation. If we failed to stop him, the universe would have ended. Thus Aman'Thul losing his shit when he thinks it's over and we're all dead.

[huth]

That's what I've been saying all along.

Argus the Unmaker is he, the "Unmaker", regarded as the single greatest threat we have ever faced, with the power to literally undo creation. If we failed to stop him, the universe would have ended. Thus Aman'Thul losing his shit when he thinks it's over and we're all dead.

No, that's Sargeras. Whether or not Argus can actually unmake the universe is unknown. The main danger comes from him preventing the Titans from dealing with Sargeras.

Aman'thul is clamoring over the loss because the Titans alone do not at that point possess the strength to fight Argus and imprison Sargeras, what with them just having been freed from torture and imprisonment and aren't likely to recover in time to defeat Sargeras before he can corrupt Azeroth.
Argus isn't the main threat in the scenario. He's just the immediate one that has to be dealt with before the true danger can be tackled.

You keep attributing power to Argus that we have no evidence he actually has beyond some names that could easily just be hyperbole.

[ello]

tbqh I'm more disappointed that we didn't deal with the Dreadlords. They were always my favorite legion force. Anetheron, Mal'ganis, Mephistroth and perhaps Tichondrius are still out there. Are they just gonna fade into obscurity?

[JustRob]

No, that's Sargeras. Whether or not Argus can actually unmake the universe is unknown. The main danger comes from him preventing the Titans from dealing with Sargeras.

Aman'thul is clamoring over the loss because the Titans alone do not at that point possess the strength to fight Argus and imprison Sargeras, what with them just having been freed from torture and imprisonment and aren't likely to recover in time to defeat Sargeras before he can corrupt Azeroth.
Argus isn't the main threat in the scenario. He's just the immediate one that has to be dealt with before the true danger can be tackled.

You keep attributing power to Argus that we have no evidence he actually has beyond some names that could easily just be hyperbole.

I'm just using what it says in the game. He's the Unmaker, Sargeras sent him to deal with us and the Titans. Your argument is just could bes and maybes.

[Dagoth Ur]

tbqh I'm more disappointed that we didn't deal with the Dreadlords. They were always my favorite legion force. Anetheron, Mal'ganis, Mephistroth and perhaps Tichondrius are still out there. Are they just gonna fade into obscurity?

Dreadlords have enough connection with the Void that this doesn't have to be the case if you ask me. Would be cool to see how Sargeras' fall will affect their alignments and infrastructure.

What got me wondering is if they really just introduced Lotraxion because "Lightforged Dreardlord is kewlll ideaa mon" or do they have some kind of future stoyline plan for him and maybe rest of Nathrezim.

[FriendOrTraitor]

How were we supposed to battle him? A fight where we physically fight Sargeras would be laughably bad. I don't know if you saw the cinematic, but he is as large as Azeroth; should his legs have been dungeons and his torso an entire raid? He does have the wings for it. If anything, they could have better explained what the pantheon was doing and somehow allowed us to be involved in doing it.

[ello]

Dreadlords have enough connection with the Void that this doesn't have to be the case if you ask me. Would be cool to see how Sargeras' fall will affect their alignments and infrastructure.

What got me wondering is if they really just introduced Lotraxion because "Lightforged Dreardlord is kewlll ideaa mon" or do they have some kind of future stoyline plan for him and maybe rest of Nathrezim.

Lorthraxion is the first Dreadlord people don't expect to betry/lie to us.

Which is exactly why I want him to do it so badly. :P

[huth]

I'm just using what it says in the game. He's the Unmaker, Sargeras sent him to deal with us and the Titans. Your argument is just could bes and maybes.

Your argument is based on a spell tooltip and a title. Also, we brought him to the Seat. Not Sargeras.

[EyelessCrow]

How were we supposed to battle him? A fight where we physically fight Sargeras would be laughably bad. I don't know if you saw the cinematic, but he is as large as Azeroth; should his legs have been dungeons and his torso an entire raid? He does have the wings for it. If anything, they could have better explained what the pantheon was doing and somehow allowed us to be involved in doing it.

Moar dots on the kidneys guys!

[A dot Ham]

Instead, we fight some shallow placeholder boss, and then all we get is a cinematic of Sargeras being imprisoned. Sargeras has been the big bad guy for so long, they've been building up to a battle with him for ages. And then they don't? We fight Archimonde, we fight Kil'jaeden, but not Sargeras?

How did they even imprison him? How the hell did the Pantheon even revive? They were all killed off by Sargeras and their spirits lost. Aman'Thul was aborbed by Lei Shen and should have died with him.

It's just fucking stupid that Sargeras, at full power, can be imprisoned by the Pantheon who he already killed once that revived out of nowhere. They should have at least let us battle him. We're probably never gonna see the Legion in the spotlight again, and this is the way they concluded it? Bullshit.

I think you should start compiling a list of things you actually like about the game. Not what you used to like, what about the current live version of the game do you enjoy.

I feel like its going to be a short list, but as many of the players... ya'll just don't know how to walk away from a game you clearly don't enjoy anymore.

[TheFirstOnes]

How were we supposed to battle him? A fight where we physically fight Sargeras would be laughably bad. I don't know if you saw the cinematic, but he is as large as Azeroth; should his legs have been dungeons and his torso an entire raid? He does have the wings for it. If anything, they could have better explained what the pantheon was doing and somehow allowed us to be involved in doing it.

The TIP of his fucking LITTLE Pinky Finger would've been an Entire Raid alone.