Saurfang Dialogue

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

It's like Saurfang is Nazgrim, only not dumb.

I hope this is sarcasm. Saurfang was ruined with this expansion and it hasn't even been released yet. Is he senile? Has he forgotten he is apart of the Horde? He's a military commander, ex-leader of the Kor'kron. Killing people is suddenly disturbing to him? Dishonorable? He should clean his own closet out first before he shames others. -Points at the Path of Glory-.

[bloodmoth13]

Kaelthas left on his own before the blood elves ever joined the horde. Hell, the Alliance can lay claim to him just as easily, if not even moreso, since the last time he served as a protagonist was in Frozen Throne's Alliance campaign.


The Warcraft 2 horde which is explicitly a separate entity than the Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft horde. Leader of the Warcraft 2 trolls which are explicitly a separate and antagonistic group to the Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft trolls.

You might as well call Archimonde an alliance hero.

Thats like saying that warcraft II alliance is a separate entity to the wow alliance, yet alliance reclaimed both alleria and turalyon, along with danath and friends in outland. if alleria and turalyon were horde, they would be raid bosses, guaranteed.

Kael fought against the demons of outland and the scourge, he was never evil in TFT, arguably you could consider him on the wrong side when he attacked arthas under kiljaedins command, but that happened to be within his own scope of a just war. he was only turned into a villain in wow.

He could have been a horde hero very easily, it would be like turning tyrande into a raid boss in wow and saying she was never a part of the alliance since she wasnt part of the human army in TFT.

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Don't forget, she only saved Vol'jin and the entire Horde at the Broken Shore so she could live which makes her a war criminal and a traitor to the Horde.
Don't forget, because she bombed Southshore makes her an enemy to the Horde.
Don't forget, because she didn't kill herself and stayed dead that she's an enemy to the world for not wanting to save her people from mass-suicide.
Don't forget, she attacked first in Stormheim, not the Alliance.
Don't forget, Sylvanas is the worst character in WoW.

I honestly cant tell if this is sarcasm or genuinely held beliefs....

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

I'll give you a hint it rhymes with neoplasm. oh nvm should've just said saurfang +1 if you get the pun.

[Jack Black]

Mag'har orcs for Alliance confirmed? LOL.

Just kidding...

[ls-]

I mentioned the Broken Mirror, here, and said something in the Alpha thread, but this is what I mean:

What if Saurfang is going to try and do a Darkspear Rebellion... but have it FAIL? Have it be a broken mirror of MoP where Honor is the -wrong- choice for the Horde. Where doing the right thing, the thing that's best for the Horde and for Azeroth as a whole is to do something others would consider dishonorable.

By being a Broken Mirror of Pandaria, the Devs could mirror the events but swap the characterization. Sylvanas comes to power and everyone assumes Garrosh 2.0, the Saurfang Revolution rises up but is thoroughly quelled rather than leading the Alliance into Orgrimmar. Sylvanas's actions, while questionable at the time, prove to be vital to the war effort. Rather than Sylvanas being the real villain, one of the "Honorable" people who oppose her is the true enemy, as their "Honorable" actions push the world closer to destruction.

... would be kind of sweet! Would preserve Sylvanas for the polarizing element of the game's design, would put the Alliance on the defensive within the story (Even weakened if they have to raid one of their own Leaders as the Horde did, before!), and could really shake up the faction war while allowing Sylvanas to become a lighter shade of Grey if, in a reverse ending of Siege of Orgrimmar, she refuses to destroy Stormwind and the Alliance "Because that was never my goal."

Very unlikely, sadly, WoW storytelling is quite predictable, quite often the first thing you assume turns out to be the right thing.

[Tyrathius]

I just can't imagine Blizzard would ever actually kill Sylvanas off. And I'm an Alliance player who would love to see her go.

I have this terrible fear that this will be the xpac where she finally does something not entirely selfish for the first time in her un-life which will somehow make up for all the evil she's done, and Saurfang will come running back saying how wrong she was and Genn will either realize vengeance is wrong for some reason and forgive her or become a raid boss himself for "refusing to let it go".

[cparle87]

I mentioned the Broken Mirror, here, and said something in the Alpha thread, but this is what I mean:

What if Saurfang is going to try and do a Darkspear Rebellion... but have it FAIL? Have it be a broken mirror of MoP where Honor is the -wrong- choice for the Horde. Where doing the right thing, the thing that's best for the Horde and for Azeroth as a whole is to do something others would consider dishonorable.

By being a Broken Mirror of Pandaria, the Devs could mirror the events but swap the characterization. Sylvanas comes to power and everyone assumes Garrosh 2.0, the Saurfang Revolution rises up but is thoroughly quelled rather than leading the Alliance into Orgrimmar. Sylvanas's actions, while questionable at the time, prove to be vital to the war effort. Rather than Sylvanas being the real villain, one of the "Honorable" people who oppose her is the true enemy, as their "Honorable" actions push the world closer to destruction.

... would be kind of sweet! Would preserve Sylvanas for the polarizing element of the game's design, would put the Alliance on the defensive within the story (Even weakened if they have to raid one of their own Leaders as the Horde did, before!), and could really shake up the faction war while allowing Sylvanas to become a lighter shade of Grey if, in a reverse ending of Siege of Orgrimmar, she refuses to destroy Stormwind and the Alliance "Because that was never my goal."

I like this. Pragmatism over idealism is a rarely explored topic.

[Chemical Ellis]

I think a lot of folks are rushing to conclusions.

First off, all the claims that Golden is Jaina/Alliance fangirl - what? Have you READ her novels? Honestly, of anyone to tackle orcs in the Warcraft universe (and I'm including Metzen in this assessment), she's the only one to truly give a sense of their values, their way of thinking, not only as something logical, cohesive, and justifiable, but also as something very alien to human/western values. She makes the concept of honorable war, the value of strife make sense, covering issues that would come off as baseless warmongering in a lesser writer's hands.

That's why this Saurfang dialogue is especially compelling. The thing is, they've been steering Sylvanas towards some dark climax since Cataclysm. I love her character, but you are delusional if you think she's anything but evil. It was a bold choice to have such an unambiguously evil figure lead the Horde, but it also means they can't really pull back on her arc without it feeling out of character. And, just because a leader takes actions many of their subjects find distasteful, does not mean the story will be a repeat of what's come before. Saurfang's dialogue, to me, presages an exploration of the heroism of orcish values, while they were mainly presented through the lens of villainy in MoP and WoD.

I don't think the Horde will turn on Sylvanas. Hell, beyond Cairne, they didn't start turning on Garrosh until he started relegating non-orcs to second-class citizens and cannon fodder. And Sylvanas isn't some hothead with daddy issues who grew up in a sick bay - she's lead a nation for over a decade, and been a military commander FAR longer than that. If anything, I think we'll see a Horde that reflects its origins, an uneasy alliance of races banding together on the fringe, making a way for themselves by whatever means are necessary.

[Ithekro]

I would want Sylvanas to survive and actually lead the Horde as her people.

However, her Horde might not quite gel with some of the older Orcs sense of honor. Old Saufang might not see her actions as honorable, or perhaps it is just that she is not in the at to fight for honor. She's willing to Blight the prize and run with as many of her people as she can....to survive. An Old Orc would rather die in honorable combat than run.

In this case, they might both be right, but for different reasons, and Saurfang actually understand this, but still has to follow his ways or he would not be the orc that his is.
To Saurfang, Honor is the key to the Horde. Blood and Thunder! Victory or Death.
To Sylvanas, survival is the key to the Horde. What good is honor if you are a corpse? And not the still moving undead kind of corpse.

[bloodmoth13]

Mag'har orcs for Alliance confirmed? LOL.

Just kidding...

oh god, this again... ughghghgh

Worst part is, that with this dialogue its not even unlikely! saurfang was so hype leading up to this, now there is all this talk of him being a traitor and even speculation of him joining the alliance! Even the base concept of alliance orcs... ughghghhghghghghgh its so bad!

Blizzard would never do this, im sure that all this dialogue is just some red herring, maybe this is their way of teasing belial for HotS, being the lord of lies. sick way to tease blizzard... really.

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I would want Sylvanas to survive and actually lead the Horde as her people.

However, her Horde might not quite gel with some of the older Orcs sense of honor. Old Saufang might not see her actions as honorable, or perhaps it is just that she is not in the at to fight for honor. She's willing to Blight the prize and run with as many of her people as she can....to survive. An Old Orc would rather die in honorable combat than run.

In this case, they might both be right, but for different reasons, and Saurfang actually understand this, but still has to follow his ways or he would not be the orc that his is.
To Saurfang, Honor is the key to the Horde. Blood and Thunder! Victory or Death.
To Sylvanas, survival is the key to the Horde. What good is honor if you are a corpse? And not the still moving undead kind of corpse.

Interesting view point. So saurfang wouldnt lead a rebellion, but just has philosophical differences, his path is to fight to the death and die a hero, sylvanas has seen the other side, her path is survival and to keep away from that fate at all costs. Makes sense, neither is wrong, in this case i suppose sylvanas's will to save her people is more noble than saurfangs expectation that his warriors lay down their lives in a final, futile stand

[Reydan]

(Source)


I sense some possible infighting within the Horde...

Maybe this leads him going to AU Draenor and ask Gromm Hellscream for help? I don't know how this will result in all those Orcs joining the Horde, I don't see them overthrowing Sylvanas that soon already.

[Deleted]

(Source)


I sense some possible infighting within the Horde...

I sense he's gonna get hte death he's always wanted.

[Deleted]

As a horde player I'm really sick of this sort of subplot, can we go one expansion without some sort of Warchief turnover? Assuming that is where this is going of course.

Well it makes sense. The Horde is Orcs, Tauren and Troll, others are just kind of tagging along.

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I just can't imagine Blizzard would ever actually kill Sylvanas off. And I'm an Alliance player who would love to see her go.

I have this terrible fear that this will be the xpac where she finally does something not entirely selfish for the first time in her un-life which will somehow make up for all the evil she's done, and Saurfang will come running back saying how wrong she was and Genn will either realize vengeance is wrong for some reason and forgive her or become a raid boss himself for "refusing to let it go".

Well, she did sack and destroy his home. To kill Sylvanas is only logical, honorable and the right thing to do by any standard. If we side with Sylvanas against Genn it makes us the bad guys and we all know Blizzard doesn't want that - the reason why Garrosh's Mongrel Horde was turned into "Nazi Horde".

[Taeldorian]

We had infighting for less than half of an expansion. Why’re people screaming about it appearing in another expac? It won’t be on the level of Mop that’s fairly obvious but it seems pretty different. Like saurfang might be diplomatic about it rather than war against sylvanas.

Doesn’t look exactly like MoP to me at all. Different kind of infighting.

When they announced legion did people spaz out this hard about fighting demons for the 1002292th time?

[Deleted]

Yeah uhhh... I think you misunderstood my whole point. I'll have to go outline mode for it to get across:

Start of Expansion: Third party destroys Teldrassil during Sylvanas's attempt to capture it (Or Tyrande does it) and the Horde and Alliance are both pissed at Sylvanas about it.
1) Fall of Lordaeron, Saurfang gets captured and thinks Sylvanas was the one who destroyed Teldrassil/is leading the Horde to dishonor.
2) Saurfang starts up his rebellion against Sylvanas, possibly including the Alliance in it while Tyrande/Jaina (Whichever will become the villain) starts doing "Questionable Things" to fight against the Horde.
3) Saurfang's rebellion is shattered and Saurfang himself is stripped of rank and position, the Truth about Teldrassil comes out that it was never Sylvanas's plan. Saurfang's Honor was the WRONG THING. Even if it seemed right at the time.
4) Tyrande/Jaina engages in beyond questionable acts, starts going significantly too far, forcing Anduin to cut them off from the Alliance to some degree or another.
5) Alliance Civil War in which Tyrande/Jaina engages in acts of violence against their own people, even potentially causing a world-ending problem. Could be a "Genn Agrees" situation where he works against the Horde but eventually backs off the new Villain to show that they've gone too far even for him.
6) The Alliance and Horde both wind up dealing with the potential world-ender, and then turn their attention on Tyrande/Jaina in an Alliance-Smiting raid.
7) At the end of the fighting the Alliance is weakened and the Horde is in the superior position, everyone expects Sylvanas to destroy the Alliance and she refuses, stating it was never her goal.
8) Alliance spends an expansion or two rebuilding their forces and assets.

Broken Mirror.

I hope it will be like this. But if Blizzard turns this into another MoP they can play the game themselves. Don't need that shit story again.

[Faerillis]

Does anyone reading this wonder why so many Hordies are fucking sick of being forced to be the villains time and time again?

Hopefully this dialogue changes again because frankly it is utter ass. "Let's make Saurfang leave. Again. Because we've never done a storyline where Horde leaders start seeing the Warchief as irredeemable because we decided they should throw the first punch even when it would make more sense for the Alliance to do so." I went and read his dialogue and honestly... it is taking the steam out of the hype train for BfA. If anyone is wondering why?

[Bildsturmer]

Letting the Forsaken into the Horde in the first place was a mistake.

[Deleted]

Well it makes sense. The Horde is Orcs, Tauren and Troll, others are just kind of tagging along.

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Well, she did sack and destroy his home. To kill Sylvanas is only logical, honorable and the right thing to do by any standard. If we side with Sylvanas against Genn it makes us the bad guys and we all know Blizzard doesn't want that - the reason why Garrosh's Mongrel Horde was turned into "Nazi Horde".

So now characters aren't allowed to try to kill the enemy commander in battle? If thats the case our own characters are far more evil compared to Sylvanas and should all be put to the sword immediately. Because we killed a lot of characters who commanded army's and troops. And thats what Sylvanas tried to do in the Battle for Gilneas City. She tried to shoot Genn with one of her Dark Arrow's. She didn't force Liam to jump into the arrow to screw Genn Greymane. If Genn is weak and retarded enough to sit there unprotected and unaware of the potential danger like a good little target, then it is his fault alone. Especially if he has the information, that the enemy has superb archers among their ranks. Thats not only Sylvanas herself. Her Dark Rangers are all very skilled archers and could have done the same in the situation. It was this stupidity and weakness that got his son killed. Only that Genn is too weak to acknowledge that he himself has contributed to the death of his son.

That doesn't mean that he can't have the goal and notion to avenge his son. That is totally legitimate. But giving all the fault to Sylvanas is simply Genn Greymane bullshiting himself and in denial.

@ Bildsturmer

The Alliance tried to kill of the Orcs especially long before the Forsaken joined the Horde. The Alliance also attack Djungle Trolls like the Dark Spear Tribe without a second thought. The Alliance screwed most members of the current Horde over one or more times, except the Tauren and Goblins maybe.

So getting the Forsaken into the Horde to get a strong foothold in the eastern kingdoms, while the Alliance already had a strong foothold in Kalimdor with Night Elves and Theramore was very, very sound decision making. Without the Forsaken, the Alliance could have dominated the Eastern Kingdoms way sooner, while the Horde would have no real option to oppose them. Meanwhile the Alliance could have waged war on Kalimdor with very a more secure Eastern Kingdoms under their control. Without the Forsaken in the Horde, the Blood Elves wouldn't have become members too. But i guess Alliance players are getting quite wet thinking about Forsaken never joining Horde and all the possibilities that would have opened up.

[docterfreeze]

Maybe he shouldn't have assisted in killing the last productive orc warchief. You reap what you sow.

[Nnyco]

Why are horde upset about this? If sylvanas and her crew are taken out the remaining leadership of the horde will actually completely be horde members for the first time in years. People like Baine, Saurfang, Ro'khan, Eitrigg, you know the actual soul of the horde. Not garbage like sylvanas and galliwix. Should be happy to be getting rid of them.

yeah nothin says loyal members of the horde like plottin against their warchief