How 'Casualization' Is Saving WoW For Raiders

[Pooti]

All of your arguments are based of the view of someone who barely plays this game and has a lack of understanding of its systems, and doesn't understand why the hardcore playerbase is arguing for why Blizzard shouldn't be removing certain things to benefit the casual crowd. Calling things toxic doesn't solve anything. Knock it off. We already know there isn't a WoW without casuals.

Blizzard has no reason to start removing features that benefit progression guilds. For every point that is brought up. "That loot master just stole my loot." Well you fucking know what? "This guy with personal loot just looted something he didn't need, and he won't give it to someone who needs it." Have fun with that. All the loot systems have their problems.

Your 2 scenarios make me think, what is the real difference between the 2? Both describe a situation where you did not get loot. Even with personal loot it could be possible to clear a raid and not get a drop, or get a drop that is not an upgrade. What is the difference between someone else getting something really awesome that you want given to them by the ML or given to them by the RNG loot gods. At the end of the day you still do not have the item.

[Mister Cheese]

Your 2 scenarios make me think, what is the real difference between the 2? Both describe a situation where you did not get loot. Even with personal loot it could be possible to clear a raid and not get a drop, or get a drop that is not an upgrade. What is the difference between someone else getting something really awesome that you want given to them by the ML or given to them by RNG by the loot gods. At the end of the day you still do not have the item.

In a guild raid the item is most likely going to go to a person who needs it no matter what. I'll be fine with that if I don't get it if it's a dedicated guildie and I wanted the item as well. It's not a big deal. Ninja looting doesn't happen anymore. It can't happen anymore. Simply because there are so many protections against it now. Guild groups are a requirement for master loot. If anyone is off realm I believe you can't turn on master loot(I think? I may be wrong.)

[Pooti]

In a guild raid the item is most likely going to go to a person who needs it no matter what.

Just to be clear, I think ML should stay and the arguments against it are full of holes, which was the point I was trying to make.

[Niwes]

@Myta:

1)
your whole point is based on assumptions and subjective perspective. wether we have data, nor are things that simple, you want it look like.

2)
i disagree, as others here, STRONGLY to your subjective view about meta behaviours in wow.

3)
i agree a fair amount to the oppinion, that master loot always was a bit of cancer in wow and was hard to tame when it comes down to toxic behaviour and loot/guild drama. personally, after 12 years of playing wow, i would not be that pissed off like some others i see on forums here, when they make PL the way to go.

4)
to a degree you counter your own arguments in the upper part, with things you said in your lower part. that seems weird to me.

[Elbob]

First step to implement true "casualization" would be to stop making systems that give advantage to nolifers. Legion with AP farming, legendary farming and mythic+ loot with no weekly lockout or cap opened a can of worms where Joe casual could not keep up with Bob the nolife. It was especially egregious during the first half of Legion when hardcore people boasted 1k+ maw of souls runs. Many others couldn't force themselves or enjoy this new "meta" so they called it quits. They were used from tbc to wod to cap their daily / weekly routine then move onto "having their life" and Legion suddenly told them "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week".

It wasn't masterloot that drove people away (since it existed from vanilla), it was the "keep up with the Joneses" rat race Blizzard suddenly threw the community into. As if they didn't realize, or worse, they knew and deliberately ignited underlying social mechanisms. No you didn't need x traits or x legendary to play in "semi-casual heroic raiding guild", didn't stop these guilds from putting these gatekeeper requirements. No, you didn't need x ilvl to beat content in a pug, but because there were enough ilvl overfarmed "hardcores" around anyone with less didn't stand a chance.

Blizzard might want to de-emphasize raiding with removing tiers, and de-emphasize guilds by removing master loot. They might want to limit how quickly hardcores gear up, and kill split running raids. But that does nothing against the situation that hardcores will be geared head to toe from m+ after 1-2 weeks and create insurmountable gap between them and casuals because they won't take anyone with inferior ilvl to their groups. On average atm hc raid gives you 2-4 items per lockout on personal loot. M+ gives infinite. There's no lockout, only time sank factor. With very little ilvl disparity, the biggest gap were the tier bonuses, and these are axed.

If they wanted to slow down how quickly a player can gear at the start of a raid era and prevent loot funneling, they really need to look deeply at m+ system.

Sounds like Joe Casual has self control issues if he can't keep himself from playing until he burns out just because Bob Nolife has more stuff then him.
Why do people need blizzard to babysit their play?!?!?
Why can't people be adults and stop when they want to stop?
Why do you care what a "no life" does on the game?
Why do you care that some one who spent 100 hours in game last week has more stuff than you?

I see people blame it on guild/pug requirements but I haven't had issues getting into pugs on my shit geared alts all expac because only around 1 in 10 even have the insane requirements.

If you don't want to spend more time in game... LOG OFF. If you don't want to run more M+... DON'T. Bobnolife may have 20 ilvl on you because of it but that doesn't mean anything to you and won't change your exp at all unless you let it.

[Enrif]

Also objectively false. In a given group of consistent players it is rather easy to determine who will benefit the entire group the most from an upgrade. It does put more pressure on the ML to be completely objective in the decision process, but to say that its unethical is absurd.

There are absolutely fair ways to hand out loot. Giving items to the player, that will benefit the raid as a whole the most.

It doesn't need to be some care bear "Everyone gets loot 100% evenly" if you have 20 people all aware, and wanting loot to be handed out purely for the benefit of the raid team as a whole. Which is what you get in higher end guilds. Then for that guild, that's a fair loot system.

This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

[Pooti]

Sounds like Joe Casual has self control issues if he can't keep himself from playing until he burns out just because Bob Nolife has more stuff then him.
Why do people need blizzard to babysit their play?!?!?
Why can't people be adults and stop when they want to stop?
Why do you care what a "no life" does on the game?
Why do you care that some one who spent 100 hours in game last week has more stuff than you?

I see people blame it on guild/pug requirements but I haven't had issues getting into pugs on my shit geared alts all expac because only around 1 in 10 even have the insane requirements.

If you don't want to spend more time in game... LOG OFF. If you don't want to run more M+... DON'T. Bobnolife may have 20 ilvl on you because of it but that doesn't mean anything to you and won't change your exp at all unless you let it.

But they FEEL left behind! Blizzard has to design the game to protect FEELINGS!!!

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This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

"It's not fair" is an argument for toddlers.

[Mister Cheese]

This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

Then maybe raiding isn't for you?

[Pooti]

We carry a few bad players in our guild because we can funnel loot into the good players and carry to some extent. If there's no Master Loot going forward, we're going to be forced to dump our lesser skilled players.

Then the outcry will be that raid leaders should not be able to choose who raids. It is not fair that someone else gets to decide that!

[Enrif]

But they FEEL left behind! Blizzard has to design the game to protect FEELINGS!!!

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"It's not fair" is an argument for toddlers.

Is it? Okay, we two work at the same place, but i get all of your earning because i'm better at the job. Still fair?

[Allenseiei]

First step to implement true "casualization" would be to stop making systems that give advantage to nolifers. Legion with AP farming, legendary farming and mythic+ loot with no weekly lockout or cap opened a can of worms where Joe casual could not keep up with Bob the nolife. It was especially egregious during the first half of Legion when hardcore people boasted 1k+ maw of souls runs. Many others couldn't force themselves or enjoy this new "meta" so they called it quits. They were used from tbc to wod to cap their daily / weekly routine then move onto "having their life" and Legion suddenly told them "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week".

It wasn't masterloot that drove people away (since it existed from vanilla), it was the "keep up with the Joneses" rat race Blizzard suddenly threw the community into. As if they didn't realize, or worse, they knew and deliberately ignited underlying social mechanisms. No you didn't need x traits or x legendary to play in "semi-casual heroic raiding guild", didn't stop these guilds from putting these gatekeeper requirements. No, you didn't need x ilvl to beat content in a pug, but because there were enough ilvl overfarmed "hardcores" around anyone with less didn't stand a chance.

Blizzard might want to de-emphasize raiding with removing tiers, and de-emphasize guilds by removing master loot. They might want to limit how quickly hardcores gear up, and kill split running raids. But that does nothing against the situation that hardcores will be geared head to toe from m+ after 1-2 weeks and create insurmountable gap between them and casuals because they won't take anyone with inferior ilvl to their groups. On average atm hc raid gives you 2-4 items per lockout on personal loot. M+ gives infinite. There's no lockout, only time sank factor. With very little ilvl disparity, the biggest gap were the tier bonuses, and these are axed.

If they wanted to slow down how quickly a player can gear at the start of a raid era and prevent loot funneling, they really need to look deeply at m+ system.

Your first paragraph is the essential problem. People misunderstand that there is so little to gain from nolifing in WoW as it currently is.
Bob the no life can run 24/7 mythic + dungeons and raids currently have 974-980 ilvl with 82-85 traits.
Daniel the mythic raider runs guild raids 10-15 hours a week at best and does the mythic 15 cache and has 970-980 ilvl with 80 traits.

Power difference? Non consecuential, since WoW dps efficiency relies 70% of proc chances, daniel and bob will do the same amount of damage.

Joe the casual runs LFR and some mythic +, LFR alone between queues and other factors can take almost the same amount of time a mythic raider does his progression content (even less on farm) and probably does mythic 10-15's. Has around 950-970 ilvl and 78 traits. Joe the casual meets daniel or bob and does half the damage with relatively similar ilvl gear because gear has been funneled to him by mythic cache system, making him clear content by outgearing it, and he never cared about actually learning his class.

I believe, just the way "hardcore" players, real ones, dont care about casuals, casuals should not care about hardcore players. They play very different games, and if casuals feel their ego is being hurt because people who do harder things have better stuff, then he/she should get up from their golden toilet of entitlement and learn that more dedication is rewarded with better things.

[Emerald Archer]

This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

But if you're in a guild where everyone agrees with, and prios raid completion over personal loot, it IS fair.

It's only unfair to people who want their own personal loot, as fast as possible, instead of killing bosses as fast as possible, when the rest of the guild wants progression. If you don't enjoy that loot style, leave the guild, find one that fits your selfish mentality.

Getting loot slightly later, is not "getting nothing out of it" There are plenty of guilds who are prog>personal gain. And the PLAYERS in those guilds agree with it. Guilds of people who see loot as a secondary reward, and clearing the raid as fast as possible as the primary.

Everyone will get their loot. They just need to have patience.

Unfair is personal in this case, "No player lives for a raid" that's fair, but no player should live for loot. That's unbelievably childish. A huge amount of players prio progression over loot.

You're coming from a position that assumes the player wants loot more than they want progression. Which is wrong. And not a wide-spread statement you can make. It's just 110% incorrect.

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Is it? Okay, we two work at the same place, but i get all of your earning because i'm better at the job. Still fair?

It's not "all of your earnings" do you really think if 1 guy gets a pair of boots a week before you, they're taking "all of your earnings"? That's a really sad mentality.

If someone does the job better, or is more important to the company, 100% they should be rewarded for that. That doesn't mean the rest of the employees are suddenly not getting paid. You just gave the perfect argument against yourself.

[Allenseiei]

This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

They do get something out of it. While you might not get something this week, you will get something next week since with the gear funnel you are able to clear faster. People who are in high end guilds and are accepted members will always recieve loot, one week or another.

[Ophenia]

Blizzard's directions for WoW is actually terrifically bland.

Loot an item, equip it, go on
Don't talk to anyone, pug everything
Fast-food island/mythic+ content with little to no interaction
All classes are the same now, play whatever you want, nothing differentiate them anymore

MasterLooting going away is just another step in this over-simplification of everything, trying to avoid any single chance of drama by trying to please everyone.

They want WoW to be played/playable by people not caring at all about the game, that's sad actually.

[Pooti]

Is it? Okay, we two work at the same place, but i get all of your earning because i'm better at the job. Still fair?

False equivalency. Raiding is more of a team effort than a job setting. The end goal of raiding is generally to kill the hardest boss possible for group glory, not personal gain. Comparing it to salary would be more along the lines of everyone in the raid does actually get the same amount of gold. Gear drops would as I see it, be more along the lines of the better or harder working employee gets the new computer at his desk first, but everyone gets that new computer eventually.

[xcitng]

Says vanilla was casual friendly and blizzard listens to hardcore players, catering them for many years... Seems like your making a shit post because there will be very little that will agree with either of those things.

Master loot has been perfectly fine for 13 years and its pretty much restricted to guilds now, if you have a problem with your guilds loot rules, just fucking leave....
Vanilla with its time requirement to be attuned to everything and raid was not casual friendly at all & shitting on vanilla calling it a shit MMO? why did it break all records and have millions waiting to reply it if it was so bad....
From Wrath onwards, which is more than half the game, blizzard has been introducing systems to help/cater casual players....

You do realize blizzard removing master loot is because of the 1% doing split runs and shit like that, not to help the 99% casual playerbase?

-5/10

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This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

If they sacrifice their time the same amount, they will get stuff out of it. You shouldn't expect to turn up half the time and be rewarded for it, if that is your mind set, organised raiding isn't for you.

[Pensylvestor]

There are absolutely fair ways to hand out loot. Giving items to the player, that will benefit the raid as a whole the most.

It doesn't need to be some care bear "Everyone gets loot 100% evenly" if you have 20 people all aware, and wanting loot to be handed out purely for the benefit of the raid team as a whole. Which is what you get in higher end guilds. Then for that guild, that's a fair loot system.

Because it doesn't seem fair TO YOU, does not make it unfair. There are plenty of players who favour guild progression over selfish loot gain.

Maybe you've had bad experience with master loot in guilds, that's unfortunate for you. But that doesn't detract from the many guilds who use it, and have it work fair and in a positive way for the guild and their raiders mindset.

I'm okay with the removal, and personal loot being the only route. My concern is just rng. There's not many mail users in my guild, whereas there's a shit ton of Leather and cloth users, so with personal loot, i'm left at the hands of rng pretty heavily. As there aren't many to trade with.

The unfortunate truth is that there is no way any one person or group of people (a loot council in this case) can know for certain that this X piece of loot is going to benefit the raid the most by going to Y player. It is just impossible. You can't simply go by "well X piece of loot is going to be the largest percentage dps increase for this person, so it should go to them". There are things such as player performance, how useful that particular class/spec is going to be for upcoming fights, player latency, etc.... All of these things make it impossible to 100% "fairly" distribute loot, and this is the case in casual guilds as well as the top guilds in the world.

Personal loot will still allow the top 1% to really allocate their loot how they see fit by running splits (cloth/leather/mail/plate splits), while also providing a much, much fairer loot system to the rest of the raiders. So when that guy who is consistently putting up those grey parses gets a super titanforged trinket, he'll get it from a 100% rng system, not because he's friends with the raid leader.

[JohnnyMccrum]

Steps to being a full time forum poster:

1. ignore sub numbers.
2. use herd/group mentality to belittle people.
3. talk about how mission tables are game design masterpieces.
4. Blizzard is always right, you're always wrong.
5. Blizzard doesn't do anything wrong.
6. Destroy anything that threatens BfA.
7. Try to shut down momentum that threatens Blizzard/Retail
8. Ignore the sub numbers (on here twice because this is IMPORTANT)
9. Only comment positively when the game is being praised.
10. 5000+ forum posts. <100 hours played.

People only play this version of WoW because there is no stable, legal alternative. This game is gone when Classic comes out; pretty much set in stone.

[Saberstrike]

They just need to bring badge gear back. Personal and Master is irrelevant. The real problem is both systems are just different ways to roll the dice, when what the game needs is some sort of 'sure fire' way to earn upgrades by doing the content. At least, to a certain 'default' point the harder content is tuned around.

I liked how GW2 did this, where running X dungeon gave you that X dungeon's 'tokens' per boss killed, and if you got extremely unlucky with a drop you want you can go to a vendor after 3-4 runs and get that one item. For stats, or transmog. It's a really nice system to complement the random drops. I've no idea why WoW dropped it.

[crusadernero]

First step to implement true "casualization" would be to stop making systems that give advantage to nolifers. Legion with AP farming, legendary farming and mythic+ loot with no weekly lockout or cap opened a can of worms where Joe casual could not keep up with Bob the nolife. It was especially egregious during the first half of Legion when hardcore people boasted 1k+ maw of souls runs. Many others couldn't force themselves or enjoy this new "meta" so they called it quits. They were used from tbc to wod to cap their daily / weekly routine then move onto "having their life" and Legion suddenly told them "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week".

It wasn't masterloot that drove people away (since it existed from vanilla), it was the "keep up with the Joneses" rat race Blizzard suddenly threw the community into. As if they didn't realize, or worse, they knew and deliberately ignited underlying social mechanisms. No you didn't need x traits or x legendary to play in "semi-casual heroic raiding guild", didn't stop these guilds from putting these gatekeeper requirements. No, you didn't need x ilvl to beat content in a pug, but because there were enough ilvl overfarmed "hardcores" around anyone with less didn't stand a chance.

Blizzard might want to de-emphasize raiding with removing tiers, and de-emphasize guilds by removing master loot. They might want to limit how quickly hardcores gear up, and kill split running raids. But that does nothing against the situation that hardcores will be geared head to toe from m+ after 1-2 weeks and create insurmountable gap between them and casuals because they won't take anyone with inferior ilvl to their groups. On average atm hc raid gives you 2-4 items per lockout on personal loot. M+ gives infinite. There's no lockout, only time sank factor. With very little ilvl disparity, the biggest gap were the tier bonuses, and these are axed.

If they wanted to slow down how quickly a player can gear at the start of a raid era and prevent loot funneling, they really need to look deeply at m+ system.

I agree with you! There was alot of grind in Legion and standards set after that.

I dont think master loot is any issue here. I mean, who uses ML these days outside of guilds? Been a few years since I raiding in a guild, and back then was the last time I saw the use of ML. I join pugs on normal/Hc mode and all of those raids got personal loot. If I see a group in dungeon finder that says it has ML, I just dont join them. Its not worth taking a chance by joining strangers that might give loot to friends etc, even though you won a roll.

Now, if you are in a guild using ML and the guild got clear rules on how to distribute them, you must take the choice if you want this system or not. If you dont like it, its better just to find another raiding guild.

I think its important in a game like wow to keep the options available to players. I can choose to do normal, hc or mythic raids. At the same time guilds and raid teams should be able to choose how they want to distribute loot the way the group seems fit. Some guilds want to gear up healers first, others the tanks and others again the DPS.