Titanforging gone out of hand.

[Deleted]

Titanforged gear is worst thing that could have happened to this game. It doesnt matter if you killed Argus on mythic or not the point is if a Normal item can proc to 980 then whats the point in doing something other then to say you killed it. My alt lock is on 968 ( i know kinda low ) but i did one hc run and less than 10 mythic+ dungeons in this season and < 6 days playtime, while my main is 968 or so with mythic kills, close to a 400 dungeons in this season and so on. There is no real reason why item should proc to more then base ilvl for that difficulty + 10ilvl more.

Good luck getting a full 980 bis/gear from normal. Maybe in 5/6 years.

[PaladinBash]

Fuck sometimes you get lucky my dude. I haven't got a single 985 piece the entire time on my main and I have cleared Mythic, albeit only recently. Shit's cool for people that get it.

[markos82]

Good luck getting a full 980 bis/gear from normal. Maybe in 5/6 years.

i got more titanforged items on alt in one run than in 20 runs + 40x more mythic+ that i have on main. The point isnt if ill get it while throwing random time reference to sound smart i said whats the point in doing harder stuff when you can get better item in less time invested, just because rng likes you. I know ppl that didnt stepped into Argus raid ( except to get 4 set bonus ), and have 970+ item level just from m+ which gives base ilvl of 940 ( for +15 ) and being lucky on proc from weekly chest.

[Raelbo]

Titanforged gear is worst thing that could have happened to this game. It doesnt matter if you killed Argus on mythic or not the point is if a Normal item can proc to 980 then whats the point in doing something other then to say you killed it.

I am really struggling to understand your reasoning here.

The whole point of raiding is to defeat tough bosses. And the harder it is to achieve that, the greater the value of the accomplishment. Gear is a secondary objective, and the whole point of which is simply to defeat more bosses anyway.

Secondly, even if your primary objective is, for whatever reason, just to get the best gear possible, you're almost certainly going to achieve that by running raids on the highest difficulty you can beat.

There is no real reason why item should proc to more then base ilvl for that difficulty + 10ilvl more.

It vastly extends the scope of the gear progression curve while not progressing content. In other words, regardless of where you are stuck personally in terms of raid progression, your gear will continue to steadily improve over time as long as you keep doing the content you can do.

Because there is no realistically achieveable cap on how good your gear can get, you can grind for gear for as long as you want to. At the same time, because there is no defined, achievable end point, there is no compulsion to keep grinding for gear beyond the point where you need it.

Effectively it's now entirely up to us to decide where we choose to stop raiding forthe purpose of gearing up. If you are happy to stop once the final boss is dead, then nothing is forcing you to stay on the treadmill. However if you are still enjoying the raid and feel like you want to make your character more powerful, you can do so for as long as you please - you'll continue to gain upgrades at a slowly but perpetually diminishing rate pretty much for as long as you care to.

There is no real reason why the item proc should be restricted to +10ilvl

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i got more titanforged items on alt in one run than in 20 runs + 40x more mythic+ that i have on main. The point isnt if ill get it while throwing random time reference to sound smart i said whats the point in doing harder stuff when you can get better item in less time invested, just because rng likes you. I know ppl that didnt stepped into Argus raid ( except to get 4 set bonus ), and have 970+ item level just from m+ which gives base ilvl of 940 ( for +15 ) and being lucky on proc from weekly chest.

That's a bit like asking why you should bother going to work for a living when you could just buy a lottery ticket and win the jackpot.

[Deleted]

No, and I think it's most disingenuous of you to try and misrepresent my words in this way.

Elitism is not the result of rational behaviour at all. It's the result of an irrational response to what may be a rational desire.

Fair point. I wasn't trying to misrepresent you, I think there's a misunderstanding of what we consider elitist behaviour. I hope I'll be able to phrase it better this time.

I completely disagree. No one needs to act like a douche in order to have a fun experience in the game. So in practice: When faced with a choice between accepting two random players, and one has a higher ilevel than the other, it is perfectly rational to choose the one with the higher ilevel. That is different from setting unnecessarily high ilevel thresholds.

Let me try to prove you wrong on this one. I'll use your example.

For example: I want to run Antorus HC. 55 people apply. I only accept those with ilevel > 975 and reject everyone else, running with only the 15 who passed the threshold. Nothing stops me from extending the group to include the 30 best geared people (the lowest of whom might only be 965).

You are mixing two criteria here, which should be treated separately. One is the introduction of an item level threshold, the other is a limitation to the group size. We should exclude the second limitation, because there may be good arguments to run with a smaller group which have nothing to do with ilvl. Coordination, for example, might be easier. As a raidleader you might have a preference for a smaller group, regardless of the caliber of players you're including. I don't think that alone qualifies as elitism. Since it's smaller it will also be filled faster than a larger group if both share every other limitation. I agree with you that there's a good argument to be made to go with larger groups in general, but I think the issue lies elsewhere.

We agree that it's rational to always invite the player with the highest item level (I'm ignoring class and spec considerations for a moment). If you invite people ranked by their ilvl for a group of 15, then the item level of the 15th player in the queue will become the effective item level threshold of your group. How high that threshold is does not only depend on your group size (which we're holding constant until we resolved which size would be best), it depends on three things: Your patience, the queueing players' patience, and the number of applications (of random item level) per second.

Your patience determines how much time you have to build your group. The queueing player's patience determines how much of that time you can actually spend if you ever want to start raiding.* And the number of applications (with any item level) per second determines how closely your queue will approximate the distribution of ilvl in the game when you're out of waiting time. The longer you can afford to wait the more likely it will be that your queue's top 15 players will be on the very right side of this ilvl distribution.

You can see this best by listing a +15 key. Almost instantly you'll have a dozen players who are way above anything you'd sensibly need. Rational top-down inviting when applications per second are frequent thus creates ridiculously high effective ilvl thresholds as a side effect. Technically it's completely unneccessary to add item level thresholds if you list a key. It's also unneccessary to decline invitations. The result depends only on patience and applications per second.

I'm not sure if you can blame anyone for being patient when they list their own key or create their own raid.


*That patience seems to increase with the size of the group, it's probably nonlinear.

[Deleted]

i got more titanforged items on alt in one run than in 20 runs + 40x more mythic+ that i have on main. The point isnt if ill get it while throwing random time reference to sound smart i said whats the point in doing harder stuff when you can get better item in less time invested, just because rng likes you. I know ppl that didnt stepped into Argus raid ( except to get 4 set bonus ), and have 970+ item level just from m+ which gives base ilvl of 940 ( for +15 ) and being lucky on proc from weekly chest.

If you only care about numbers, or in WoW ilvl, you are not going to get far. Try join a mythic guild with a 970+ ilvl without a tier set or a raid trinket.

Again, WoW isn't about numbers anymore.

The point of doing harder stuff is the challenge, fun and the reward that are WAY MORE concrete and "safe" then a random weekly chest that can heppen 2 times or never.

[Raelbo]

Let me try to prove you wrong on this one. I'll use your example.

I get what you're saying. I don't really disagree with most of it. But I think what you're saying sidesteps what I am saying.

Of course, if I can see upfront, more than enough people to fill my group, I am going to select based on ilevel. The thing is that in practice, forming a raid group typically doesn't happen instantly. You list a group, people request to join, you either accept or decline or leave them waiting. Since you're not going to know upfront who is going to request to join down the line, you have no idea what the actual ilevel of the first X applicants (or of the applicants that apply within Y time) is going to be.

In practice group leaders are going to have an ilevel threshold that they will use (whether openly advertised or not). They'll either accept or decline applications as they happen based on that threshold. Elitism is evident when that threshold is unnecessarily high, or when things happen like a leader invites someone to a group and then later kicks them because someone better came along. Elitists worry too much about getting the "best" group possible when really, any decent group will do. They have overly high standards when it comes to what classifies as "good enough".

TF may have moved the bar in terms of the ilevels involved, but the principle of elitism remains the same as does the practical reality. Elitists exclude people based on where they sit within the hierarchy, not based on whether they are good enough to get the job done (even comfortably). TF, by helping a lot more people get into the bracket of what constitutes "good enough" serves to highlight elitism because the elitists choose to move the ilevel requirement even when the content remains constant.

That is not a problem with TF. It's a problem with those players.

[netherflame]

980 viable? it's overgeared for mythic argus, bring on titanforged mythic difficulty where all loot drops ilvl 985 and TF's upto 1000 because fuck the rules.

TF mythic secretly is LFR where you have to carry half the group because they are potatos who manage to do half the numbers they should be doing.

[NatePsy]

That must be some God tier RNG because I have multiple alts running Heroic every week and they're nowhere close to 980. Also, please some of your gear is also from M+ weekly chests. If you're in a Mythic raid guild, chances are you're getting funnelled some of those TF's from other clothies that are doing Heroic but raid Mythic and oh look, you're a healer, even more clear that you'd be funnelled gear!

So, does M+ a lot apparently and is in a Mythic guild very likely doing Heroic with Mythic mains who are quite likely funnelling. See this argument of yours works if this was all self obtained and from Heroic through your own efforts, not funnelled, no M+ weekly chests to skew the ilvl, etc. AND OH LOOK WEEKLY MYTHIC CHEST AND MYTHIC RAID RELICS! Lets also not ignore the fact you've just put a non-effective Trust in the Light trait relic (Essentially putting it on because it's high ilvl without regard for the fact it's absolute dogshit tier trait)

[Dizzeeyooo]

That must be ... RNG

i believe that is the point of this thread

[Ponji]

Must be nice for you kids who are complaining about your highest ilvl Titanforges. I've been subbed and playing consistently for the entire expac and have yet to see anything beyond a 970 TF from Heroic ABT. I do M+ (min 15) every week on multiple toons. Still waiting for that first 980.

Seriously. Cry more about RNG. Be happy you're getting significant upgrades or quit playing the game. Why complain that you're getting a ton of upgrades? Why complain they're nearly the highest ilvl? Are you really that mad you got something good? Apes.

[Deleted]

dude, i love the titanforging system. ever since antorus opened i managed to get a grand total of two 965 items in my weekly M+ cache, everything else being 960 including a godly Shard of Rokmora as well as a 960 Ember of Nullification with SPEED AND A SOCKET OMG!!! I got so lucky I even got three times the same exact chestpiece, once in 965, twice in 960!! what a great system! i can't wait to raid in BfA with forced personal loot <3

[Marrilaife]

TF may have moved the bar in terms of the ilevels involved, but the principle of elitism remains the same as does the practical reality. Elitists exclude people based on where they sit within the hierarchy, not based on whether they are good enough to get the job done (even comfortably). TF, by helping a lot more people get into the bracket of what constitutes "good enough" serves to highlight elitism because the elitists choose to move the ilevel requirement even when the content remains constant.

What you're describing is the debate between who has the "right" to the (limited) raid spot - "the best person for the job" or "first came first served".

Obviously there are further debatable points as:
- what criteria does the "elitist" use to determine "best person" for the spot? ilvl? achievement? logs? number of boss kills / clears?
- what is the best raid size? does inviting extra dps for example slow you down because healers become the bottleneck? will some people start having lag / fps issue in full 30 man group as compared to a 15?
And probably some others.

But anyway why would "first came first served" be a sacred rule? I can see people being in favour of it when they use it to their advantage - "I can't get into semi full groups due too much competition so I'm gonna hope a guy with 3 people will take me in to make the group look more full and once I'm in my spot is secure", because there's a trend people gravitate towards semi full groups that need only a handful more rather than join the semi empty ones, as the biggest downside of pugging is the dreadful wait times, so people try to cut these short by queuing only for groups that "will start soon".

Because of this mechanic of how humans react this can create big disparity between the "strongest people" and "weakest people" in the group. And that leads to pugs that "kick lowest dps after garothi" and so forth. Because many pug leaders are afraid if they don't kick the lowest people, the top people will leave on their own to look for a more "elite" group and the leader will be back to square one, with the weaker people left and semi empty group to refill.

This actually happens a lot on bosses like coven - pugs wipe often on it and you'll often see half the group leave. Pug leaders don't have to be necessarily elitist in their mind, they're trying to make a wipe-proof group not only to "get themselves carried" but out of fear every wipe increases the chance people will leave and the time sink to keep refilling the group.

That's what many people list as a deterrent from "making their own group", not just the lack of knowledge "how to lead" but the fear of failing expectations of people, having people leave, call out "fail group, retard lead" and so forth. They're intimidated and the ones that take up the mantle either adopt the elitism to conform by the rules of community, or come to a conclusion that if they're going through all the hassle to assemble people, placate them, lead them and keep the group refilled and going, they deserve "something extra", they can't "reserve loot" any more but they can at least get themselves carried.

[Deleted]

That must be some God tier RNG because I have multiple alts running Heroic every week and they're nowhere close to 980. Also, please some of your gear is also from M+ weekly chests. If you're in a Mythic raid guild, chances are you're getting funnelled some of those TF's from other clothies that are doing Heroic but raid Mythic and oh look, you're a healer, even more clear that you'd be funnelled gear!

If he got funneled 960 gear I would agree but I don't think anyone would tunnel 980!! gear in heroic to some alt. And at this point he is probably in a group doing Personal Loot so the people giving him 980 items need to have 980+ in the same spots which is also unlikely. He just being super lucky/unlucky on his alt is actually more likely than he getting tunneled loot.

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dude, i love the titanforging system. ever since antorus opened i managed to get a grand total of two 965 items in my weekly M+ cache, everything else being 960 including a godly Shard of Rokmora as well as a 960 Ember of Nullification with SPEED AND A SOCKET OMG!!! I got so lucky I even got three times the same exact chestpiece, once in 965, twice in 960!! what a great system! i can't wait to raid in BfA with forced personal loot <3

I have gotten a bunch of 960-965 rings from my m+ chest, like 6 or so but I already have rings like that from all the raiding so they are worthless. And after I open my dissapointing chest I look at guild news and see trials/alt/socials get some 975-985 item from their +13-15 key when I do a few +18-19 keys most weeks. The effort/reward ratio is stupidly skewed in Legion.

Wouldnt mind less ilvl in m+ chest and a cap to how much gear can titanforge. Like +15-25ilvl as a cap from the source its gotten from and have an exception for high m+ so that a +25 key still drop base 940 but instead of having it cap at 955 you have a chance for 985 gear, like every level or 2 above 15 gives another +5 to the cap so higher keys would actually give better loot. With this you wont get ridiculous TF from low difficulty content but you can still get really good upgrades but really high M+ and Mythic raids are the only way to get capped loot.

[Artemol]

Guess who just looted another 970 Titanforged piece from Heroic

<- this dude, what character u might ask.. well ofcourse on the priest alt

[Volitar]

I like Titanforging. It's one of the reasons people in my guild stuck around for as long as they did. The usual 'I've cleared heroic difficulty and have my gear so I'm taking a break from the game' attitude didn't seem as prevalent or set in as quickly this time around.

Plus, it feels genuinely good to get a TF proc on a piece of gear you were seeking. Keep it as it is. No Titanforge cap. Let the miniscule chance of a crazy proc happen, just to trigger the Mythic raiders.

Normal raiders getting high TF doesn't trigger mythic raiders, It's the never ending farm of shit content to get decent gear that is frustrating, oh and parsing based purely off skill doesn't exist.

[Artemol]

First page news now #RNGCraft

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

because mythic raiders are not pug-idiots who go itlv over anything only go for proper stat priority.

An item with poor stat itemization still puts me higher on sim and on fights. A lot don't even have 980 pieces.

[NatePsy]

Must be nice for you kids who are complaining about your highest ilvl Titanforges. I've been subbed and playing consistently for the entire expac and have yet to see anything beyond a 970 TF from Heroic ABT. I do M+ (min 15) every week on multiple toons. Still waiting for that first 980.

Seriously. Cry more about RNG. Be happy you're getting significant upgrades or quit playing the game. Why complain that you're getting a ton of upgrades? Why complain they're nearly the highest ilvl? Are you really that mad you got something good? Apes.

This guy also echoes my statements. Highest I've ever personally seen a TF on MY character gained on MY own merit/loot is a 970 and that was once. ONCE. I refuse to believe it's all been loot he's gained on his own without outside help. To the dude that quoted me, when his buddies who main raid Mythic for god knows how long, 980's start being a thing for them because 960 is a hell of a lot closer to 980, so no I still refuse to accept he is getting all this loot on his own.

[Artemol]

This guy also echoes my statements. Highest I've ever personally seen a TF on MY character gained on MY own merit/loot is a 970 and that was once. ONCE. I refuse to believe it's all been loot he's gained on his own without outside help. To the dude that quoted me, when his buddies who main raid Mythic for god knows how long, 980's start being a thing for them because 960 is a hell of a lot closer to 980, so no I still refuse to accept he is getting all this loot on his own.

I did get all of this loot ON MY OWN.