Change in Stormwind Scenario: Saurfang no longer asks to see Anduin.

[Combatbutler]

Dwarves: Yeah, Dwarves are kind of twats here.
Humans: They had literally nowhere else to go. They were kicked out from their home by their Vrykul ancestors, remember? And let's not forget, this was thousands of years ago.

Did not stop them that once they had their little niche to expand from it, to take every piece of land they could get their hands on. Or that they constantly plotted against each other, or became the most numerous mortal supporters of the lich king, handled magic so irresponsibly a super mage had to be created in order to keep the world safe, committed genocide etc.

Draenei: "Carelessness" being them trying to find somewhere they could live to hide from the Legion. Yeah, it was toootally their fault that 2/3rds of their leaders betrayed them and wanted to wipe them out. They should've just quietly killed themselves to spare the rest of the universe.

That argument goes square out of the window, ever since we learned the army of the light is essentially from the same bunch of draenei, they had a clear other choice but did not take it.

Worgen: ...? Do you mean when their 'kin' were mindless beasts intent on slaughtering every last one of them? Yeah, really awful thing those Worgen did.

Not specifically, I also meant their civil war and how they brought the worgen curse back into the world in the first place.

Night Elves: You mean XAVIUS brought corruption to the Emerald Dream, not the Night Elves. At the time he was a Satyr, a demon, not a Night Elf.

Nope he did not, it was night elves playing around with world tree seeds that allowed the old gods access to the emerald dream.

[Deleted]

They might have had something planned for that conversation between Saurfang and Anduin - maybe it would come up again in the war campaign, in the introduction to the isles, or in a later patch - but decided to scrap it.

It can not have been much of a talk, even before they cut the scene out, because once the Horde players get outside Anduin is riding partol with his soldiers. I'm not sure he'd even have time to get from his castle to the stockades in such a short time, much less talk.^^

[Koraggar]

It is simply organic growth to a character, who wasn't realy prominent in the last few expansions so it happened off screen.

I didn't really want to respond to this because it's getting off-topic. She went from psychotically hunting down undead to a chest-thumping Horde patriot practically overnight, talking about a "family" she's never been apart of or had any positive interaction with. And there's no explanation for how or why. There was no short story or build up. She just suddenly is Horde out of nowhere. There was nothing "organic" about it, It was a blatant 180.

But this part, in particular, stood out to me, you basically just admitted it was bad writing.I think it goes without saying that "development happened off screen" is one of the hallmarks of shitty storytelling. I'm willing to roll with rule of cool to an extent, but this is too much.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell

It's basically the same as Grom in WoD. No narrative explanation as to why he is suddenly on our side, just "draenor is freeeEeee".


Someone on the story forums said that the recent build removed the ability to do or see Voss quests. Hopefully someone at Blizzard realized how insane it was an pulled the plug

*fingers corssed*

[Chickat]

I still think that a character, with the importance of Bwonsamdi should have more of a substantial motivation or agenda than "Me want souls!!!". Especially, if he turns out to be behind Vol'jin choosing Sylvanas as his successor and such.

Maybe Sylvanas made a pact with him or he came to her?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The old scenario does not make much sense. Saurfang is in Stormwind, and if he wants, he can request to meet Anduin anytime anyday. There is really no point to suddenly want to meet Anduin after seeing the rescue party.

Also, by deleting his request to meet Anduin, we could at least say that while Saurfang does not agree with Sylvanas, he remains loyal to the horde and does not actively seek to talk with Aundin and be converted. The old scenario is kind of bordering betrayal.

I never figured he meant to join the Alliance, even when he asked to speak to Anduin. I suspected Saurfang might be one of the first to figure out there are forces manipulating from behind the scenes (his experience with Mannoroth's blood, his distrust of anything coming out of Silithus), and want to feel out Anduin on that. In his position, if I already felt Horde leadership was being manipulated, I might want to get a gauge on whether Alliance leaders were also.

I figure he will find his way out of that cell at some point, and if I were him I'd want to take advantage of this opportunity to learn as much as I could.

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Why doesn't he fight for his freedom? Is it not honorable enough?

I don't expect him to spend the whole expansion in that cell, after all the time they've invested in him lately. He is biding his time, calculating his next move. Sylvanas made it clear she didn't want him around in Lordaeron, and did not send the rescuers for him. Who's to say she would be happy they brought him back? Meanwhile he might be able to accomplish more for the long term best interests of the Horde by hanging out in Stormwind for a bit than by leaving immediately.

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It's a little bit better but still doesn't resolve the problem I have with it. If they're dead set on Saurfang not returning, it would be better if he escapes but then goes his own way, maybe to Frostwolves and Drek'thar.

They obviously have something planned. I just hope whatever it is feels right when it's finally revealed. How can they resolve this arc in a way that feels 'right' for both Saurfang fans and Sylvanas fans? That's seeming like a tall challenge these days. Only way I can see it happening is if they eventually team up to kick ass together, whether that's Alliance ass or void ass - something epic that pulls it all together again.

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they gave him an amazing new model... to sit in a jail cell? Doubt it.

I feel like Blizzard had some real "fuck you" horde plan and realized that wouldn't work so well, so now he's just going to sit in a jail cell. Like I wouldn't have put it pass them if they were going to try and make Saurfang join Anduin's entourage, like they gave Varian the blood elf girl.

I agree they did not give him new model for nothing, but don't agree that Blizz ever meant for him to join Alliance. Saurfang in Stormwind is a plot point. Hopefully Blizz does something good with it.

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Doesn't change the fact he's a traitor to the Horde.

Doesn't change the fact that he's not and never was.

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So...Saurfang basically becomes Captain America? Loyal to the dream/ideal (ala Honor) of the Horde instead of whoever is in charge?

I think that's a fair assessment. He has been set up as Horde's conscience, even as far back as Warsong Hold in WotLK.

I honestly believe Blizz is trying to create controversy right now on Horde side especially. I think they would be disappointed if everyone agreed with Sylvanas or with Saurfang. They might even tweak little quests like this to try and keep fans more evenly divided for now. And i suspect they have some plan for bringing it all together again later in the expansion.

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I believe he will stay in his cell and wait for the perfect moment to break out and annihilate stormwind.

I suspect he'll find a way out when he's decided on his next move.

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And then he will go on self-imposed exile to some shack in grizzly hills.

I can think of worse retirements.

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Do some of you genuinely think Saurfang is going to sit in a cell the entire expansion? Get real

Exactly. They have something planned. No point in rushing to judgment till we see what it is.

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Plus humans have dominated the lore for 7 expansions now.

I agree on this point. Blizz's development of NPCs for other races is lagging badly. How many of them have actual personalities? Some races don't have even one NPC with actual character development.

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I think what people want is for Saurfang to proactively fight within the Horde for the Horde he and Thrall envisioned, not have meetings with Anduin and be all mopey and sulky in Alliance's prison cell.

The prison cell is temporary, and the expansion isn't even live yet. I understand your concern, but give it time. The book will be out soon! And I'm sure they have something planned for Saurfang.

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Rokhan has initiative now?

But still no personality.

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I have a sneaking suspicion that Saurfang will be a key part of Thrall's story arc in BfA. - in what capacity I don't know, but I can see both of them search for the spirit of Vol'jin to determine specifically *why* he Loa directed him to elevate Sylvanas to Warchief and perhaps to get the full story on what needs to be done in that vein.

Thrall, Vol'jin, and Saurfang form overthehill gang? Wherever will they go, and what will they be up to?

[SinAscendant]

I didn't really want to respond to this because it's getting off-topic. She went from psychotically hunting down undead to a chest-thumping Horde patriot practically overnight, talking about a "family" she's never been apart of or had any positive interaction with. And there's no explanation for how or why. There was no short story or build up. She just suddenly is Horde out of nowhere. There was nothing "organic" about it, It was a blatant 180.

But this part, in particular, stood out to me, you basically just admitted it was bad writing.I think it goes without saying that "development happened off screen" is one of the hallmarks of shitty storytelling. I'm willing to roll with rule of cool to an extent, but this is too much.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell

It's basically the same as Grom in WoD. No narrative explanation as to why he is suddenly on our side, just "draenor is freeeEeee".


Someone on the story forums said that the recent build removed the ability to do or see Voss quests. Hopefully someone at Blizzard realized how insane it was an pulled the plug

*fingers corssed*

You're taking a handful of quotes in the wrong order and out of context.

Voss has been Horde for all of Legion and nobody's complained, why is it suddenly now an issue?

Sure, she hated Forsaken and herself right after being raised, but she then proceeded to work with the Forsaken in Strat and be saved by them in Scholo, and it's been five years. What's so strange about her getting used to it? And how is that "never been a part of" or "never had positive interaction with"? I'm pretty sure someone saving your life counts as positive.

Grom was a problem because they started the xpac with him planned as the last boss and then changed their minds in the middle, so the writing of the second half didn't match the first half. Lillian just suffers from not enough writing, which isn't as big of a deal. And her working with the Horde to fight the Legion cements her on their side pretty well.

[Shefu]

I hope he rots in that cell.

[Airwaves]

Fuck him. Stupid old man. He supported the horde under hellscream. Yet not windrunner. Blizzard really made him a hypocrite.

[MikeBogina]

Honestly, I would rather he just stay in his cell and talk to Anduin than get another Horde internal war arc.

Though I would still like to see the two sides reconcile somehow.

Idk if it would be worth it. Saurfang wants peace, Anduin wants peace. Most dialogue would end with "I agree" as where Garrosh and Anduin had a lot to discuss.

I do fear we're going to see Anduin hold onto Saurfang and try to make him the leader of the Horde... but I honestly will quit if they make Sylvanas a raid boss, not because i like her, but because i like my faction.

[Time Sage]

Fuck him. Stupid old man. He supported the horde under hellscream. Yet not windrunner. Blizzard really made him a hypocrite.

That... is quite an oversight if true. Slyvanas may be lacking in honor but by the end Garrosh was straight up honorless, abandonding any allies he deemd worthless on bigoted grounds. Slyvanas is at least smart enough to realize every Solider is a tool that can be used until breaks.

[MikeBogina]

They gave Vol'jin a new glaive model in Legion.
Everything can happen

Added a glaive to his model, or finally showed him with a weapon?

I honestly dont think we're done with Voljin though.

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They gave Deathwing a cool "human" model, and you only see it in a joke chain, and a few of Cho's visual stories.

He also originally used it in the Highlands when he comes through the portal, but it was changed.

I believe they decided to scrap all their plans with the human model because they wanted him to be less like taunting Lich King and more destructive dragon.

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I agree they did not give him new model for nothing, but don't agree that Blizz ever meant for him to join Alliance. Saurfang in Stormwind is a plot point. Hopefully Blizz does something good with it.

Blizzard is always thinking forward and BFA in my opinion, is being used to build up the next one. I can see them setting up a plot where Anduin is the main hero of the next expansion and they need to give him some Horde characters to join him, or it's another Alliance sausage fest.

They can probably make anduin do his usual sensitive crap and show Saurfang there's more honor in helping others than trying to die or some shit like that and BAM! Saurfang joins Anduin's little parade. By that point the war will be over(it's not going to last longer than the expansion) and we'll all be buddy buddy again in Dalaran.

[Koraggar]

Voss has been Horde for all of Legion and nobody's complained, why is it suddenly now an issue?

Voss wasn't Horde in Legion. Blizzard tagging her as such in a single orderhall doesn't mean crap when it comes to her narrative. Storywise she has zero connection or loyalty to the horde and that is what actually matters here. Her work with the Horde was almost by accident. She just happened to be in the same place at the same time we were and so we worked together.

In fact, she's just as unhinged and anti-undead in Legion when she gets you to hunt undead in your order hall.

Sure, she hated Forsaken and herself right after being raised, but she then proceeded to work with the Forsaken in Strat and be saved by them in Scholo, and it's been five years. What's so strange about her getting used to it? And how is that "never been a part of" or "never had positive interaction with"? I'm pretty sure someone saving your life counts as positive.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. The only interaction she had was in the starting zone where she ultimately left them and never looked back to go on her anti-necromancer crusade.

Grom was a problem because they started the xpac with him planned as the last boss and then changed their minds in the middle, so the writing of the second half didn't match the first half. Lillian just suffers from not enough writing, which isn't as big of a deal. And her working with the Horde to fight the Legion cements her on their side pretty well.

Voss was a problem because she started as an fanatical undead hunter and then changed their minds in BfA, so the writing of the first 4 expansions didn't match the 5th. Grom just suffers from not enough writing, which isn't as big of a deal. And him working with the forces of Azeroth to fight the Legion cements her on their side pretty well.

Idk if it would be worth it. Saurfang wants peace, Anduin wants peace. Most dialogue would end with "I agree" as where Garrosh and Anduin had a lot to discuss.

I do fear we're going to see Anduin hold onto Saurfang and try to make him the leader of the Horde... but I honestly will quit if they make Sylvanas a raid boss, not because i like her, but because i like my faction.

I feel the faction, Sylvanas as character and my sanity will be damaged even if she doesn't end up as raid boss. Every build she gets vilified further and it makes everyone involved look silly.

[Deleted]

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I suspect he'll find a way out when he's decided on his next move.

That sounds fucking lame compared to my idea. Stop making Saurfang semi alliance-hero. He isn't.

[Koraggar]

They obviously have something planned. I just hope whatever it is feels right when it's finally revealed. How can they resolve this arc in a way that feels 'right' for both Saurfang fans and Sylvanas fans? That's seeming like a tall challenge these days. Only way I can see it happening is if they eventually team up to kick ass together, whether that's Alliance ass or void ass - something epic that pulls it all together again.

That could happen. I would be interested in their reconciliation story. It sure beats the hell out of one side rolling over the other and watching the Horde cut off another appendage.

It's also possible that he ends up becoming neutral like Magni/Khdagar and help attend to Azeroth while the factions squabble.

... Or MoP 2.0.

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Fuck him. Stupid old man. He supported the horde under hellscream. Yet not windrunner. Blizzard really made him a hypocrite.

Forget Garrosh. He supported the Horde under Doomhammer. That guy reached a level of villainy Sylvanas could only dream of! :P

[Deleted]

Forget Garrosh. He supported the Horde under Doomhammer. That guy reached a level of villainy Sylvanas could only dream of! :P

Doomhammer wasn't that bad, he executed and exiled the Shadow Council with exception of a few warlocks for the creation of the death knights. He was the warchief the Horde (mainly Orcs) would dream of today. He was a badass conquerer and more like AU Grommash, he refused the ongoing corruption and ruled his horde with honor and a hard hand, he made himself a Name in the history and struck fear into the hearts of the alliance.

[Koraggar]

Doomhammer wasn't that bad, he executed and exiled the Shadow Council with exception of a few warlocks for the creation of the death knights. He was the warchief the Horde (mainly Orcs) would dream of today. He was a badass conquerer and more like AU Grommash, he refused the ongoing corruption and ruled his horde with honor and a hard hand, he made himself a Name in the history and struck fear into the hearts of the alliance.

In terms of the way he conducted warfare he was pretty vicious.

-started the second war
-practiced necromancy
-enslaved red dragons by threatening alexstraza
-used said enslaved red dragons to reduce an entire forest to ash
-tortured people, including garona.

among other things

[Astalnar]

No longer Saurfang, from hence forth he shall be known as Sourpuss.

[Lillyth]

I think that C. Golden already tweeted that some data-mined things are not real(on purpose).

Christie golden

[Deleted]

In terms of the way he conducted warfare he was pretty vicious.

-started the second war
-practiced necromancy
-enslaved red dragons by threatening alexstraza
-used said enslaved red dragons to reduce an entire forest to ash
-tortured people, including garona.

among other things

-Ogrim tried to make sure Durotan and Draka were save on their journey home after the meeting in Loch Modan. Sadly his guards werent loyal to him but to the shadow council.
-Durotan told Ogrim about the treachery of Gul'dan because Ogrim was apparently the only one he could trust (remember that it was >Durotan< who trusted Ogrim!)
-Ogrim only tortured Garona because she knew where the shadow council was located.
-starting the second war was ultimately necessary because the dwarfs and the humans had a strong relationship even 1000 years before the first war.
-it wasnt Ogrim who enslaved Alexstrasza, it was Zuluhed. His actions were questionable but led the horde to success in Khaz Modan

Ofc the horde were the bad boys in the first and second war, but Ogrim would be a better strategist and leader of the orcs than saurfang or maybe even better warchief than Sylvanas.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That sounds fucking lame compared to my idea. Stop making Saurfang semi alliance-hero. He isn't.

? Never said he was. In fact, I specifically said I never thought he was going to join the Alliance.