"Trials deserve loot too"

[Erolian]

The "bad" one that doesn't exist. It's a great guild with people that raid together for about 4+ years since I joined.

Altough performance is really needed in Mythic difficulty, it isn't the only thing that matters. We value responsability, maturity, proactive players and above all TEAM PLAYERS. You can't get those kind of values out of a log or ilvl only.

You can get a pretty good idea by checking to see if they soaked mechanics/spread out/used defensive cds and of course interviewing them beforehand. Obviously sometimes people will lie and a bad apple will get through but as long as you're asking the right questions and checking how they actually played through a boss it'll be okay the majority of the time

[evertonbelmontt]

He never said he brought in people he didn't believe should be included in the main team. He said this change, when in effect, would force guilds (decent guilds of course) to enact even stricter measures by which to gauge a player's potential to be a part of their raiding core.

That too.

But I wanted to show to him that not every guild is the same "room".
It's like being with friends, I bet his friends sounds great for him, but I doubt I would enjoy being with them, even if we all had the same "skill level". It isn't the only thing that matters.

[Erolian]

The main idea I'm trying to get across is if your guild is so afraid of trials getting loot that you stop bringing them your recruitment process is probably far too lenient towards who you allow to attempt a trial because it basically describes a world where most of your trials won't make it. Otherwise you're making mountains out of molehills

I do think they can make improvements to the loot system and probably should if they're tossing ML but that particular issue is self created

[evertonbelmontt]

You can get a pretty good idea by checking to see if they soaked mechanics/spread out/used defensive cds and of course interviewing them beforehand. Obviously sometimes people will lie and a bad apple will get through but as long as you're asking the right questions and checking how they actually played through a boss it'll be okay the majority of the time

No, you can't.
From starters, to get a good log from HC and experience you can do it with pugs and have very little responsability given to you. Or you could be a warlock like me and don't ever feel the need to use a defensive CD on aggramar HC (I did HC farm today and got 99/98% and haven't used it), while on mythic it is a completelly different fight.

What you said could be checked better _AFTER_ they trial with us. Because I could give the trial something to do other than dps the boss because he's really good at his rotation. And it still doesn't figure out people's intent and mindset because the real test begins in progress, not farm when everything is pretty.

[Deleted]

Guilds are broken most have 3 to 4 friends on officer positions and those are gear prio. After that other members and even than unfair

[Alphatorg]

Excellent post. Hopefully some will actually read it and understand. Some people want the trial to wholeheartedly trust their guild while giving up their time but the guild won’t trust them in return. Seems odd. This trial could be great and gearing them will do so much good but ML guilds May never know.
I agree, but if you listen to some on here this trial should just give up their time and energy and pray that one day the ML will “deem them worthy”.

Do you even think for a second before you write drivel like that? If someone is brought in as a trial it's because the guild sees them as a potential asset to the raid and in most cases has a vacancy on their roster, hence the is no "may never know" or "pray that one day" but instead a (in most cases) clearly defined period (usually two to three weeks) after which you're either promoted or rejected.
It's really baffling how many people here are unable to grasp this simple logic, that it isn't in a raid's own interest to keep good players undergeared or "cheat" its members.

[8bithamster]

People are actually trust worthy. If you have gotten a lot of bad experiences regarding that, maybe the problem lies on your part.

i suggest getting out of your house, read the news etc. But ofcourse you will blame anyone but the logical issues.

Hint, if you don't want to give a trial any loot whatsoever, do not run a guild. Something Something vinegar, something something catching with honey etc.

[evertonbelmontt]

The main idea I'm trying to get across is if your guild is so afraid of trials getting loot that you stop bringing them your recruitment process is probably far too lenient towards who you allow to attempt a trial because it basically describes a world where most of your trials won't make it. Otherwise you're making mountains out of molehills

I do think they can make improvements to the loot system and probably should if they're tossing ML but that particular issue is self created

I'll give this one to you because it is a problem for us.

Your armory says you're 11/11M. You killed Argus TEN times already. I'm 9/11M and we are the TOP guild in our server. Can you see now how things are different? Lower pop realms have to work with what they got. The majority of AMAZING players left for realms like yours, what happens then is that we get trials we think could have enough POTENTIAL to go through Mythic.

Some of them stick, some of them just wants loot from farm, some of them is a great adition but real life kicks in and they have to leave. Since we are the top guild even though we haven't cleared it yet, we get a good ammount of applies every day and we have about 28 people activelly raiding.

[Scrysis]

I'm worried that taking out master loot might lead to even more aggressive/toxic behavior. I think you'll find that guilds will start implementing a policy where you HAVE to trade the item you received to someone else. Don't do it? /kick /gkick People won't expect this requirement since it isn't obvious (it dropped from them, they figure that they should get it, right?). At least with master loot, you will know that rewards are going to be divided up according to the whims of the guild.

I suspect that Blizzard is doing this to try and slow down the raiding scene in order to dissuading guilds from funneling items.

[Deleted]

Haha damn. That's some next level toxic right there. Personal loot doesn't affect you. At all. With or without trials the outcome would be the same.

I heard stories about people willing to give up their salary raise as long as someone else who got that same raise didn't get it either, because "only I deserve it".

That's basically what this is. What a spiteful little guildmaster you are.

[evertonbelmontt]

I think you'll find that guilds will start implementing a policy where you HAVE to trade the item you received to someone else. Don't do it? /kick /gkick People won't expect this requirement since it isn't obvious (it dropped from them, they figure that they should get it, right?).

Nah, this is going way too far in the road.
NO sane guild would do this WITHOUT telling the trial what the rules are BEFORE he kills the boss or even trys to apply.


@MrDonald

I suspect it was directed at OP, but personal loot is terrible for progression in Mythic dificulty. Forcing it into guilds only slows down their progression, you can read more in here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...2268123?page=7

There are cutting edge players from top 50 world guilds and long time Mythic raiders that explains why it sucks for organized raiding.

[Gentlepenguin]

When a formed raid group is 10/11M, and we bring in 2-5/10M players who we're giving a shot to join us and skip progression (that we've spent months on mind you), and a main raider, who we KNOW isn't going to bail, needs a huge upgrade, of course we're going to give it to him. We have no idea about this trial or if they'll even work out. The fact that at least one dev on the WoW team thinks that Trials deserve loot just as much as the people who helped a guild progress through the raid is laughable and shows that they really don't do organized raiding to any extent. They're promoting the ideal that guild community means fuckall and you can just piss off whoever you want since they can no longer affect your loot. If Personal is forced in Normal-Mythic, that would easily promote that toxic, LFR, mentality with actual raid difficulties.

Like I really can't fathom that they think Trials should be just as eligible as main raiders for loot. It's baffling that they're upset with "being at the mercy of others" over "being at the mercy of raw RNG fucking you for weeks on end". If we could at the very least have a blacklist for gear from bosses, this might be acceptable. If we could at least trade shit we don't give a fuck about, even if it's a slight upgrade in iLvl, this might be acceptable.

TL;DR: Personal Loot is so fucking restrictive and not organized that it simply has no place in guilds who really want to progress. All this change does is make guilds even more wary of giving new players a chance in their team, especially if they're much lower progressed, have taken breaks, or have changed guilds repeatedly, and this is already a huge concern on live. Making it even worse is just causing a much bigger problem, especially how small the playerbase is compared to expansions ago.

This has pretty much everything to do with Western raiding culture. It's insular, and the reaction to these changes, or at least your own reaction, is to become even more insular.

On the other end of the spectrum, in FFXIV, end game raiding in Japan has always been puggable and they clear content at a higher rate per person than NA/EU combined.

[Erolian]

I'll give this one to you because it is a problem for us.

Your armory says you're 11/11M. You killed Argus TEN times already. I'm 9/11M and we are the TOP guild in our server. Can you see now how things are different? Lower pop realms have to work with what they got. The majority of AMAZING players left for realms like yours, what happens then is that we get trials we think could have enough POTENTIAL to go through Mythic.

Some of them stick, some of them just wants loot from farm, some of them is a great adition but real life kicks in and they have to leave. Since we are the top guild even though we haven't cleared it yet, we get a good ammount of applies every day and we have about 28 people activelly raiding.

Oh I know recruitment is difficult on low pop servers. I was in the last guild able to clear mythic while the tier was current on two separate servers AND we were Alliance. Its hard to even convince people to come to realms like that just because of the AH and other things

[Deleted]

I'd DE gear before giving it to a trial.

A trial is nothing and shouldn't even be allowed to speak in comms ideally but some guilds..

Of course, not all of them have bad attitudes

If I could join one during progress on an alt, get carried to some tier or a good trinket and then leave, I would

One of these things just doesn't belong here..

[exochaft]

One of the best posts about this issue and it perfectly shows that forcing PL WILL NOT remove any 'barriers' or make it less 'toxic' like some people state. You simply can't force people to change their attitude towards organised raiding. PL won't enhance the chance of some LFR heroes to get into a decent raid, it just won't happen. It will create only more artifical barriers which people set up by their own standards now to protect the progress of their guild. Simple as that. How some people don't get that simple thing is beyond anything I have read so far on mmo-champ and that says a lot.

I think you're creating an artificial barrier against things that would happen regardless of the existence of ML or only having PL in place.

As I've stated before, ML was only an illusion of loot control, as you still are completely at the mercy of loot you had available when the boss died. While you could have awesome drops that everyone fights over, you could also have all the drops useless and unequippable, and ML has no effect on what drops. PL at least removes the "unequippable" problem, all that really should be done to allow player control over dispersion of said loot is to remove the higher ilvl soulbinding (so you can trade loot as you wish). However, everyone just immediately assumes that all the loot that a trial gets under PL would be something that is deprived of the raid under the ML system, and honestly you cannot make that definitive claim because the loot dropped is random regardless of ML/PL.

I used to "old school heroic"/mythic raid in top 30-50 US depending upon the tier/expansion, so I've been around the block a few times and have dealt with the loot-and-run players who try to upgrade guilds after milking your raid. Let me just say if PL was in place back then, it would not have altered our recruitment methods, as these sketchy raiders will still ditch your guild even under ML systems... and I seriously don't believe ML getting removed was based upon these people. What PL would've done is actually speed up the raid since loot distribution is always a hassle and time consuming even under ideal situations. I believe that PL will not slow down gearing (and could actually increase gearing speeds via everything being equippable and loot role gaming to help out individuals), as how loot is determined under ML isn't based upon your raid's composition while PL is... worst case, it'll average the same as ML.

Finally (and I know people don't like hearing this), hardcore mythic raiding is generally more about skill than gear, as gear is a crutch when you don't have the skill. One or two pieces of gear going to a trial that "theoretically" might have dropped and been ML'd to another person is not going to hold you back from legitimate progression. I guarantee you aren't not going to see wild shifts in progression with the removal of ML in BfA.

Oh I know recruitment is difficult on low pop servers. I was in the last guild able to clear mythic while the tier was current on two separate servers AND we were Alliance. Its hard to even convince people to come to realms like that just because of the AH and other things

This problem is much larger and legitimate problem than ML being removed, and I wish it were addressed appropriately. While I said above that skill is much more important than gear for hardcore mythic raiding progression, in reality it's this: access to large player pool >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill >>> gear.

[Deleted]

Because you totally would have downed that boss without the trial TOTALLY! Here's an idea....if you don't like the idea of someone NOT A CORE RAIDER getting loot then don't take any who isn't a CORE RAIDER on your raids.

That's basically what may happen with the removal of master loot, and that's a huge issue for anyone wishing to join a mythic raiding guild after the beginning of a raid tier.

[Deleted]

Nah, this is going way too far in the road.
NO sane guild would do this WITHOUT telling the trial what the rules are BEFORE he kills the boss or even trys to apply.


@MrDonald

I suspect it was directed at OP, but personal loot is terrible for progression in Mythic dificulty. Forcing it into guilds only slows down their progression, you can read more in here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...2268123?page=7

There are cutting edge players from top 50 world guilds and long time Mythic raiders that explains why it sucks for organized raiding.

I understand it sucks for 0.001% of the playerbase. However I dont believe in designing anything for those kind of numbers.
More benefit from PL than are harmed by it. Mythic raiders abused the system btw. Wasn't intended to funnel anything with ML.

[psyquest]

That's basically what may happen with the removal of master loot, and that's a huge issue for anyone wishing to join a mythic raiding guild after the beginning of a raid tier.

Basically this is how its going to be in my guild at least.

Before:
Trial get tested in 1 raid (1 or 2 nights max). If he is good, he joins team and is allowed all loot. no distinction between old/new member. essentially we give loot for the benefit of the raid, ie helping kill mythic bosses.

After ML removal:
Trial is tested in one boss. If he is not good in that one boss, I wont take him/her to another one, why take the chance of sitting a member that will forego loot for a trial that is already not giving the right "signals" with the first boss. I wont take that risk, you fuck up in one boss, you are out. Before I could test you on 2 nights, multiple situations, multiple bosses, avoid stress related fails that way: now I wont take that risk.

That is going to be the mind set of many guild recruitment officer. Guilds that dont have the right number of people to raid will take trials to complete the raid. Serious mythic guilds will not be botherd, not good,you are out.

[Madshot789]

All that will happen is someone will make an addon to tell us when loot is able to be traded, all the loot will be traded to an officer, it will be master looted like it is now. THIS WILL HAPPEN.

So:
This change delays the handing out of loot by 1-3 weeks.
This change after 2-3 weeks will lead to pretty much the same system as we have now, outside of TF rng.
This change adds a bunch of pain in the ass extra steps.
This change will make higher end guilds less open to low end recruits.
This change will cause drama in some guilds when you are asked to trade away your PL and you don't want too.

If you don't trade the loot you'll be kicked, this change will only make mythic raiding more toxic. Heroic and Normal should be personal loot, Mythic already has unique size requirements, it should have unique loot rules. Players have control over if they join a guild or not already.

[Retributive]

After ML removal:
Trial is tested in one boss. If he is not good in that one boss, I wont take him/her to another one, why take the chance of sitting a member that will forego loot for a trial that is already not giving the right "signals" with the first boss. I wont take that risk, you fuck up in one boss, you are out.

Can confirm would do similar if trialing on lower difficulties is not on the table.