Should Blizzard cater to community perception, even if it is wrong?

[HuxNeva]

(Hats of to a WoW vlogger for bringing this up yesterday, not going to name names or link to avoid another round of 'I don't care what ... thinks' as it is irrelevant to the discussion anyways)

So this came up:
is Blizzard forcing personal loot in raids, just to appease the perception by a part of the community that master loot is a tool used by guilds to screw over raiders?

Now in guilds I have been in Master Loot with a loot council was always used correctly to optimize for increased future success of the raid-group. This goes beyond raw numerics of simmed upgrade potential but addresses weak-points (do we have a dps or peak healing problem etc. etc.) and also takes into account likely attendance and even soft issues like this guy hasn't had a singe upgrade in 4 weeks. So my perception of Master Loot is that it it good in organized raiding (when there are pugs, we always used PL).

Ion otoh explains that they make the switch to forced PL even for organized raiding in guilds because of signals that it is (often?) abused.

Now I'm not saying right or wrong. It isn"t my experience, but perhaps I'm the (lucky) exception.

What I do find interesting though is: should systems be changed based on false believes by the community? Should classes be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community believes they are OP even if data contradicts it? Should Titanforging be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community caan't wrap their head around probability and believes LFR players are running around in full 980's even when the data contradicts it?

I can see both sides. Objectively it is wrong, and so logically you shoudn't cater to wrong believes except through education. Subjectively, if that is how players realy feel, then does perception trounce reality and should you submit to it?

What do you think?

[Deleted]

How do you determine whether it is wrong?

[Shagunda]

How do you determine whether it is wrong?

for instance: when the people complaining about a problem are clearly not engaging with that problem in any meaningfull context, their complaints should be considered invalid. I and some other people have noticed that on this particular issue many people complaining about Master Loot in a guild context are not in an organised raiding guild. if this is true their opinion holds no value.

[sighy]

for instance: when the people complaining about a problem are clearly not engaging with that problem in any meaningfull context, their complaints should be considered invalid. I and some other people have noticed that on this particular issue many people complaining about Master Loot in a guild context are not in an organised raiding guild. if this is true their opinion holds no value.

I see them as more of a symptom of bad guilds and master loot eating the blame. Admittedly the grand effect of losing master loot is a slight inconveneance in a mature environment, because you can still trade the stuff.

As far as wrong opinions go i don't believe they exist. There are misinformed opinions and different opinions, but not wrong. When 2 people are looking at a cilinder one at Y axis sees a circle and one on Z axis sees a square both are kinda right, but not realy.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Blizzard is doing it because Ion at one point got screwed out of some gear he wanted due to Master Loot.

[truckboattruck]

you mean like how they always nerf warriors because mages dont want to learn how to play a new way that doesnt involve complete mobility control of them?
they've been doing this for years.....

[ramayana1423]

They are actively trying trying to kill high end organized raiding. They are making design decisions that make it harder for guilds to optimize at the high end, make it easier for players to jump in and out of the game on a month to month basis without consequence and it allows them to put less resources into properly balancing raids. This decision is just another decision based purely on money.

[Deleted]

for instance: when the people complaining about a problem are clearly not engaging with that problem in any meaningfull context, their complaints should be considered invalid. I and some other people have noticed that on this particular issue many people complaining about Master Loot in a guild context are not in an organised raiding guild. if this is true their opinion holds no value.

Why not? I've raided tons in the past, so I don't see why I can't comment on the issue, just because I'm currently not raiding in a guild.
Things haven't changed, so if I've had a beef with it in the past, why would it be any different now?

Maybe ML is part of the reason why people are not in a raid guild - I have experienced tons of drama due to loot.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Blizzard sits on more data and statistics than random nobodies with an opinion can ever dream of.

- - - Updated - - -

They are actively trying trying to kill high end organized raiding. They are making design decisions that make it harder for guilds to optimize at the high end, make it easier for players to jump in and out of the game on a month to month basis without consequence and it allows them to put less resources into properly balancing raids. This decision is just another decision based purely on money.

And can you blame them for not listening to said random nobodies, when they're spouting dumb shit such as this?

[Lilija]

How do you determine whether it is wrong?

This is a very valid question

I would add that Blizzard, unlike any one person in the community, have certain data which makes them able to be a little bit closer to the reality on that matter. Not like they cannot be wrong since even they cannot know it all (WoW is a really huge and complex animal).

Also note that no human perception can possibly grasp the whole reality. All we have is our own little snippets of it. If you want to even complete a small amount of this puzzle you need to stop assuming that your perception is more right that anyone else's. All human perceptions are wrong but it's all we have.

[anubisdark]

(Hats of to a WoW vlogger for bringing this up yesterday, not going to name names or link to avoid another round of 'I don't care what ... thinks' as it is irrelevant to the discussion anyways)

So this came up:
is Blizzard forcing personal loot in raids, just to appease the perception by a part of the community that master loot is a tool used by guilds to screw over raiders?

Now in guilds I have been in Master Loot with a loot council was always used correctly to optimize for increased future success of the raid-group. This goes beyond raw numerics of simmed upgrade potential but addresses weak-points (do we have a dps or peak healing problem etc. etc.) and also takes into account likely attendance and even soft issues like this guy hasn't had a singe upgrade in 4 weeks. So my perception of Master Loot is that it it good in organized raiding (when there are pugs, we always used PL).

Ion otoh explains that they make the switch to forced PL even for organized raiding in guilds because of signals that it is (often?) abused.

Now I'm not saying right or wrong. It isn"t my experience, but perhaps I'm the (lucky) exception.

What I do find interesting though is: should systems be changed based on false believes by the community? Should classes be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community believes they are OP even if data contradicts it? Should Titanforging be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community caan't wrap their head around probability and believes LFR players are running around in full 980's even when the data contradicts it?

I can see both sides. Objectively it is wrong, and so logically you shoudn't cater to wrong believes except through education. Subjectively, if that is how players realy feel, then does perception trounce reality and should you submit to it?

What do you think?

I think Blizzard monitors tons of analylitcs and behaviors. And does not make decisions quickly on purely perceptions often. They probally have serious data showing abuse and are changing it.

[Lilija]

for instance: when the people complaining about a problem are clearly not engaging with that problem in any meaningfull context, their complaints should be considered invalid. I and some other people have noticed that on this particular issue many people complaining about Master Loot in a guild context are not in an organised raiding guild. if this is true their opinion holds no value.

Except you have no idea what experiences all the people who complain about ML have. I've seen this theory that people who don't like ML don't raid Mythic and I am a living example of a mythic raider who prefers PL over ML given all pros and cons and given tiers are going away ML just lost a big one.

[Narwal]

(Hats of to a WoW vlogger for bringing this up yesterday, not going to name names or link to avoid another round of 'I don't care what ... thinks' as it is irrelevant to the discussion anyways)

So this came up:
is Blizzard forcing personal loot in raids, just to appease the perception by a part of the community that master loot is a tool used by guilds to screw over raiders?

Now in guilds I have been in Master Loot with a loot council was always used correctly to optimize for increased future success of the raid-group. This goes beyond raw numerics of simmed upgrade potential but addresses weak-points (do we have a dps or peak healing problem etc. etc.) and also takes into account likely attendance and even soft issues like this guy hasn't had a singe upgrade in 4 weeks. So my perception of Master Loot is that it it good in organized raiding (when there are pugs, we always used PL).

Ion otoh explains that they make the switch to forced PL even for organized raiding in guilds because of signals that it is (often?) abused.

Now I'm not saying right or wrong. It isn"t my experience, but perhaps I'm the (lucky) exception.

What I do find interesting though is: should systems be changed based on false believes by the community? Should classes be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community believes they are OP even if data contradicts it? Should Titanforging be nerfed because a small vocal part of the community caan't wrap their head around probability and believes LFR players are running around in full 980's even when the data contradicts it?

I can see both sides. Objectively it is wrong, and so logically you shoudn't cater to wrong believes except through education. Subjectively, if that is how players realy feel, then does perception trounce reality and should you submit to it?

What do you think?

Simplified even further this may make sense. Is it possible Blizzard GMs receive a measurable number of tickets/requests from players who have felt wronged in a gear decision. No matter what the environment, such a request has to be addressed by a GM, taking processing time and costing money. Is this solution simply one to reduce tickets submitted in this area? It is often a goal of a company to accurately describe issues submitted and to work towards resolution by automated solution or reducing such tickets. Could be a goal for some employees towards which bonus awarded on that metric of success in reducing such tickets.

[ramayana1423]

And can you blame them for not listening to said random nobodies, when they're spouting dumb shit such as this?

I love when peoples responses to things they don't like is NO UR DUMB. The truth hurts I know.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I love when peoples responses to things they don't like is NO UR DUMB. The truth hurts I know.

It's not truth, and my response was not "NO UR DUMB". I called your statements dumb, not you as a person.

You're literally spouting the same inane shit that people have been spouting in place of actually intelligent arguments about every little change to this game for as long as I can remember.

[Nnyco]

well the majority of forum posters are fuckin idiots, so makes sense to not listen to em alot

[Scottyjscizzle]

They are actively trying trying to kill high end organized raiding. They are making design decisions that make it harder for guilds to optimize at the high end, make it easier for players to jump in and out of the game on a month to month basis without consequence and it allows them to put less resources into properly balancing raids. This decision is just another decision based purely on money.

Easy there, it has to hurt up on your cross. I think the locking of personal loot in raids is stupid, but step back from the conspiracy ledge my friend.

[Deleted]

for instance: when the people complaining about a problem are clearly not engaging with that problem in any meaningfull context, their complaints should be considered invalid. I and some other people have noticed that on this particular issue many people complaining about Master Loot in a guild context are not in an organised raiding guild. if this is true their opinion holds no value.

Assuming that it's true that "many" people complaining about this issue aren't in a raiding guild, why does their opinion hold no value? The people who aren't in an organised raiding guild have to rely on PUGs even more and that's where Master Loot abuse is most likely to happen.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Blizzard determines right and wrong by dollar signs. If taking ML makes casuals (the biggest part of the playerbase) happy than it will be that way. Because it will be more money. If they lose every mythic raider but keep all the casuals then that is playing the smart hand. Of course they don't want to lose either, but once things become as toxic as they have in these conversations it makes it very "us vs them" which is where the volley of walking back on it comes. Casuals wouldn't have known any better before the hell storm started. Now that it has to roll it back now would be a direct slap in the face of these casual players. Odds are most mythic guilds will just find a work around or deal with it rather than quit. I mean they already pound their head against something that doesn't have a huge point outside of "look at what I do guys" on the internet. So it is what it is.

[HuxNeva]

Simplified even further this may make sense. Is it possible Blizzard GMs receive a measurable number of tickets/requests from players who have felt wronged in a gear decision. No matter what the environment, such a request has to be addressed by a GM, taking processing time and costing money. Is this solution simply one to reduce tickets submitted in this area? It is often a goal of a company to accurately describe issues submitted and to work towards resolution by automated solution or reducing such tickets. Could be a goal for some employees towards which bonus awarded on that metric of success in reducing such tickets.

For that specific issue, that was also my first thought, although I think they got widely more tickets in the days before personal loot. Remeber when you had to get the PUG leader to state the loot rules in chat to make a complaint possible?