ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Laerrus]

Because the benefits to the majority of the community outweigh the marginal benefits to a single digit percent of players. It's not because you're wrong that LC is optimal for bleeding-edge progression, it's that the benefits of getting rid of it outweigh the benefits to keeping it, on a community scale.

Outside of RP realms, there is no more "community" in WoW. 90% of the players that I come across in the game world are highly selfish.

For most of us, true community lies within your guild.

While I am personally a fan of PL, I don't think it is fair to limit choice for people who may want to enjoy the game differently from myself. We had multiple ways to loot for years and outside of a few assholes, everyone did just fine with them. I really don't think PL belongs at the Heroic or Mythic level.

Not a fan of Master Loot? The solution is easy. Don't PuG with the ones that are using it. There are always plenty of PL groups to choose from.

[Deleted]

Because the benefits to the majority of the community outweigh the marginal benefits to a single digit percent of players. It's not because you're wrong that LC is optimal for bleeding-edge progression, it's that the benefits of getting rid of it outweigh the benefits to keeping it, on a community scale.

The majority of the community are never in contact with ML, therefore, they are not the focus of this change, therefore, they shouldn't be taken into consideration for the change.

[Laerrus]

This change is really going to suck for a lot of players who like to make multiple runs through a raid on the same character. I know several people that will help a friend out with their raid, then go raid with their own guild, even though they won't get loot.

I can see guilds bringing back the whole, "You do not raid outside of the raid group!" because, getting saved to a previous instance will reduce the amount of available loot for everyone.

To better illustrate this,

Say for example, 20 players raided a boss one week and got 5 pieces of loot. The next week 4 of those players raided outside the main raid on the night before. None of them got loot, but all got saved to the boss. During the 2nd week, only 4 pieces of loot drop, because 4 of the 20 are already saved.

[Nomads]

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Guild management is exploitable hole, should we remove guilds?

Or [Insert anything that requires social interaction] is exploitable hole, should it be removed?

No. They should solve exploits in reasonable ways. Removing ML is not the same as removing guilds. Your comparison makes you look childish and foolish.

[lappee]

No. They should solve exploits in reasonable ways. Removing ML is not the same as removing guilds. Your comparison makes you look childish and foolish.

It is the same thing, just on a bigger scale.

Removing options isn't reasonable way. Ultimately there isn't even a problem to begin with, the "problem" people have is that they get themselves into guilds that use ML and are then surprise or sad that guilds use ML the way they want to.

But sure, lets take a step back. Should guild ranks be removed and guild bank access be for everyone in the guild equally? After all they're in the guild and should get the same benefits, rite?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Yea they do expose people’s greed, selfishness, and inability to socialize. There are probably too many complaints and tickets about loot issues, that Blizzard is unable to deal with it anymore. This will also cause another problem where guilds will force players to trade the loot to other players, the hell storm of issues will never end, cause that’s what people are and I cannot understand it. The best is probably to make personal loot that is not tradeable.

[Nomads]

Yea they do expose people’s greed, selfishness, and inability to socialize. There are probably too many complaints and tickets about loot issues, that Blizzard is unable to deal with it anymore. This will also cause another problem where guilds will force players to trade the loot to other players, the hell storm of issues will never end, cause that’s what people are and I cannot understand it. The best is probably to make personal loot that is not tradeable.

It's not needed. If you trade you loot to another player, it was your decision to do so. It's not the same as some pimply fat guy giving the loot you worked for to another player, because he thinks he deserves it more somehow.

If the loot is in your bag and you give it to another player, that's on you.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

It's not needed. If you trade you loot to another player, it was your decision to do so. It's not the same as some pimply fat guy giving the loot you worked for to another player, because he thinks he deserves it more somehow.

If the loot is in your bag and you give it to another player, that's on you.

What if they tell you they gonna kick you from guild if you not trade it? I have seen much already, possibilities are endless.

[Nomads]

What if they tell you they gonna kick you from guild if you not trade it? I have seen much already, possibilities are endless.

Yeah, I'm sure that will happen, but it's still your choice. In that situation you have to decide if the guild or the loot is more important. Plus, most guilds can't just kick players all the time... they will then have to go through the process of recruiting someone new, gearing them up, and facing the same chance that they will decide they want to keep the loot they earn too.

It will be like companies in the real world. Sure they can have a huge turn-over rate of employees, but that will eventually slow down their progression. If they can't find a way to treat players with dignity and respect, they will likely see very slow or no profits. Guilds will learn the same lesson.

The power is not in their hands. It's in their raiders hands now, as it should be.

[Leenaleena]

Kind of kills the whole "gearing for raid" over "raiding for gear" =\

I play a healer and have since early Cata in high end progression guilds, only really finally taking a break this tier. I've always been last to receive loot along with my co-healers and that's normal, you strategize how to push a boss over as fast as possible with a key avenue being gearing. Funneling gear into your DPS which will make the fight easier, then the into tanks and lastly into healers since we don't need a lot of gear to do our jobs, our work can also be mitigated by other raiders just playing better.

This change just leave all that to RNG, which guild got more lucky with DPS getting gear. I don't really see the rationale behind the change since pugs groups and the likes that had issues with ninja looting or the groups in HFC for "LFM Soul Cap & Vanq tier reserved" have been killed due to forced personal loot with less than 80% guild.

Why hello there, mirror self
Couldn't agree more.

[cuafpr]

It sounds good on paper. But here's the thing:

Say a raid is struggling with DPS, but not tanking or heals. A healer gets a marginal upgrade that would, in personal terms, be good. But for the raid would do MUCH better if given to one of the cloth DPS characters. The healer says to himself, "We're doing fine on heals already. If I give this item to one of the DPS, we'd do better overall." But he can't. Because reasons.

No one could force him to give that item. There's no Master Looter. And yet the player is not given the choice to help a teammate if he wants to. This is where most ML-haters chime in with, "Well how is that different than the DPS just not getting loot in the first place?!?"

Ask yourself which is better for the game:

Two people: One not getting loot, and one being frustrated because he can't help his team.

or:

Two people: One helping his team of his own free will and feeling good about it, and one getting a much needed upgrade that, in turn, helps the ENTIRE raid do better.


I'm all for changing how Master Loot works. It has some pretty obvious flaws. But I am completely unclear as to how PL-only is going to make things better. All it's doing is switching one set of problems for another. :/

To an extent, I am in agreement with the people who say that a person should be awarded for their efforts. But once they get rewarded, they should ALSO be trusted and allowed to determine for themselves what to do with that award.

I'm in agreement with that, and I think PL with the trade Ilvl restrictions off would be best move for blizzard. or make it so if its within 10ilvls you can trade it since i hope anything >10 ilvls is always a decent upgrade. Sure it could still hurt gearing up a new raider but if the bosses are dying it should be ok.

[Mirishka]

The problem i am seeing is that the people against it are actually raiders(like myself) and the people who are for it either do not raid or did very low level raiding where people used personal loot anyways.

The later unfortunately are the vocal majority and of course have no real idea of how the raiding system works in this game and its clear by how they view loot. When LC determines loot its usually to who needs it the most, favoritism doesn't really work in progression raiding because you need everyone to perform at a good level to help clear the encounters so loot always goes to the biggest upgrade for the most part.

As for the situation it does not, thats usually trials. As far as Trials go and this is another situation where people who do not actually do any real raiding would know. trial periods for the vast majority of raiding guilds is 2 weeks and during those 2 weeks you are still likely to get some loot just not the ones in hyper demand like the highest TF ones. After those two weeks you are absolutely showered in loot more then anyone else because they are trying to bring you to everyone else's level.

If you are going to be against ML at the very least know how it works and it is used. There is no benefit to hogging loot in progression raiding.

Really? It took this particular issue for you to see how toxic and whiny the 'forum community' is? Some of us figured it out years ago. :P

[lappee]

Yeah, I'm sure that will happen, but it's still your choice. In that situation you have to decide if the guild or the loot is more important. .

Its also the players choice to be in a guild that deals with ML in the way they do. They're always free to leave if they decide that loot is more important than the guild.

The only difference between those two is that the guild loses out on PL which discourages taking people they don't trust to do whats best for the guild to the raids, which in turns hurts the people who don't get the experience of the bosses and the achievements from them.

The power is in the raiders hands with ML, if they don't like the way the guilds uses ML they can just leave. If the guild has a huge turn-over rate of raiders then it'll slow down their progression. If the guild can't find a way to treat players with dignity and respect, they will likely see very slow or no progression.

Power indeed isn't in the guilds hands, its in the raiders hands as it has always been.
There is just no reason to remove ML.

[Okatan]

Raiding will be a mess in BfA confirmed.

[vsb]

At that point you should just start a crowd fund for a wow rpg

Cause I’m not sure if a mmorpg is for you

Given the fact that WoW moves in direction I like, may be WoW is not for you?

[SirCowdog]

I'm in agreement with that, and I think PL with the trade Ilvl restrictions off would be best move for blizzard. or make it so if its within 10ilvls you can trade it since i hope anything >10 ilvls is always a decent upgrade. Sure it could still hurt gearing up a new raider but if the bosses are dying it should be ok.

Maybe they should slowly relax trading as time in a tier goes on. Something like:

Week1: No trading
Week2: 5 iLVLs difference
week3: 10 iLVLs difference
Week4: +5 etc etc etc from there.

Blizzard gets their more fine-tuned control over progress. ML abuse goes away. Players still get to trade more and more as it becomes less impactful to the current tier.

[tyrlaan]

Specifics of ML changes aside, the problem with the WoW Forum community is it's become a cesspool of entitled brats who revel in the assholery they can unleash from behind the safety of a keyboard and monitor.

And people active on that community wonder why Blizzard "ignores" them

[lummiuster]

Trust me, I feel that. I'm right there with you.

But either you continue to make your point of view with calm, clear points, or you put people on ignore. You've gotta stay focused on that and fight at your level, not theirs. Take the high road in EVERY situation.

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All you're really saying is that you're not even willing to consider other points of view. How can anyone possibly consider your opinion if you're not willing to listen to theirs?

And I'll tell you as a solid, hard FACT: Not all people who use ML, or are in favor of it, are toxic.

I consider the point of view of people who are capable of expressing themselves in few lines and get rid of the unnecessary.

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Making assumptions because you are too lazy to even bother reading a full reasoning ?
You just accept the ToS and rules for anything without reading at least half of it too ?
Glad to see you're easily manipulated then if you can't even be bothered to join an arguement and answer to points given, but have to resort to making "assumptions" on how pro ML people are without taking the effort to look at the entire picture.
Anything which is longer as 2 lines of text seems to be "too much effort" for PL people too. (see what I did there ? I made an assumption without bothering to read everything, doesn't mean it's the correct assumption).

I know perfectly the reasons of pro ML. They are simply not valid. They lose nothing with PL other than slightly slower raid progression (maybe).
In exchange we win a new game environment where everyone get loot and people we'll stop seeing everyone with their BIS. Non-mythic raiders win, many mythic raiders win and the toxic mythic raiders/officers lose. Isn't awesome?

[therealbowser]

Still doesn’t mean they can’t be a threat again in the future. It would be better if those damn day-glo goats did something more useful like their original mission.

In terms of the story? Yeah, absolutely. In terms of whether or not the Army of Light should settle down and rejoin their people now that the demons no longer have the power to threaten the universe? No. If the Legion became a threat again, they'd be ready, doesn't mean that have to endlessly hunt the demons forever. We have the demon hunters for that anyways, right?

[Carnedge]

-snip-

Actually I am one of those Mythic raiders that doesn’t mind the PL change.

We missed our Mythic Guldan Cutting Edge by 4%. You know why? Loot whoring favoritism.

I parsed orange on every fight that tier. However I was also 5+ ilvls behind everyone else and ~10 Ilvls behind the Raid Leader who played the same class/spec as myself. He couldn’t stand being beat, so if it was even a 1 ilvl upgrade he took it. I went the entire NH tier without getting a CoF as a Fury warrior because off him. I used every bonus roll on that boss also.

Tl;dr If it weren’t for ML I would have been pulling much better numbers. The avarage ilvl for the raid team was lower because of him. He literally upgraded a Warforged CoF with a non-warforged Mythic CoF when we downed her when I still didn’t have one.

Screw ML